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Old November 14th, 2010, 01:28 PM   #1101
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Originally Posted by caserass View Post
Some people here really seems to have some problems of comprehension it's forbidden in UK and in France to order something who doens't fulffil the security rules. As I said the law is the law, and I'm pretty well informed about the invitation to tender, now people are pushing me to change my view, unfortunately it's not a VIEW.
There is a problem with your statement however.
If it is true that you say, than it is impossible to buy trains to a new, yet unbuild design in France or the UK.
Since SNCF however does buy trains to new designs I can only conclude that your statement must be false.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 01:41 PM   #1102
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So neither Alstom, nor Siemens offered a train that met current safety standards according to you.
yes, the main point being the type of motorisation and the lenght of the train.

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But how can then Alstom contest granting the contract to Siemens on the basis that the Siemens train doesn't meet current standards as you keep insisting?
I repeat it again, they can because even if their offer didn't fulfill the requirements of the invitation to tender it's not the train provided by siemens they will attack but the invitation to tender itself.

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And anyway, I have not seen any evidence that the current standards a priori prohibit both the AGV or the Velaro from running through the tunnel.
the current standards of what ? safety ?
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Old November 14th, 2010, 01:47 PM   #1103
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
There is a problem with your statement however.
If it is true that you say, than it is impossible to buy trains to a new, yet unbuild design in France or the UK.
Since SNCF however does buy trains to new designs I can only conclude that your statement must be false.

no, it's not what I say whatsoever, I say an invitation to tender has to take into account the safety rules applied into the country who is concerned, in this case France and UK, it is clear that eurostar asked a new designs who didn't fit with the safety rules.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 01:55 PM   #1104
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Originally Posted by caserass View Post
I'm sure it will be very funny ! of course beginning with a sentence like "not sure you know what you're talking about " means you know a lot of things but you are a bit rude or arrogant...



Read the question, you will maybe understand the answer.



Great! excepted I didn't talk about that at all. I said "kind of order" not THIS ORDER.




what you say is logic, unfortunately, I think I'm going to use your introduction to respond you : "Not sure you know what you're talking about"




oh come on, when you use the word margin all alone it's commercial margin. BTW since we are talking about that, you should re-read your post for a start.




it's not my point, there are safety criterias who are not followed by the siemens or the alstom train. That's all.





no no, I have no views as you say, I just say Alstom will win the trial and will break the order. That's it, I do not say the alstom train is better than the siemens one, frankly I don't care, First people here was thinking the new safety criterias were applied in the tunnel ( letter of the 31march 2010) I put the letter of the 31th march 2010 on the thread to show them these criterias weren't validated, and thus the order (the order doesn't mean the siemens trains) is null and void. Now they want to change my opinon about that, unfortunately I have no opinon, the most of the time I REPEAT AGAIN it's almost impossible to fulfill all the requirements put in an invitation to tender and the most of the time the order is broken.

Some people here really seems to have some problems of comprehension it's forbidden in UK and in France to order something who doens't fulffil the security rules. As I said the law is the law, and I'm pretty well informed about the invitation to tender, now people are pushing me to change my view, unfortunately it's not a VIEW.

I have to say that I'm a bit tired to talk about that with some people who don't want to understand that even if the siemens train is good even if the alstom train doens't follow the requirements of the invitation to tender it doesnt mean the order will be validated.


BTW you didn't "clear things up " in your post, you just put some questions and you were very critical about my post being supposedly baseless, excuse me to tell you this, but where are your arguments and your sources to back up any of your claims ???
I haven't made any claims per se. I'm not the one making these sweeping statements about the future of this contract. I haven't resorted to petty ad hominem arguements. Anyway...

On what conditions then is Alsthom trying to argue that the order must be broken? The UK high courts are highly unlikely to rule in Alsthom's favour in any condition, due to the obvious protectionism that the French State and to an extent, Alsthom are excercising.

Your other points continued to make little sense, so I haven't bothered to counter them.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 02:00 PM   #1105
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I haven't made any claims per se. I'm not the one making these sweeping statements about the future of this contract. I haven't resorted to petty ad hominem arguements. Anyway...
what ? you started by "Not sure you know what you're talking about, but I'll try to clear things up anyway."

you came here to lecture me and now you say you hadn't any claims ! so finally if you haven't anything to say, just shut up.

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On what conditions then is Alsthom trying to argue that the order must be broken? The UK high courts are highly unlikely to rule in Alsthom's favour in any condition, due to the obvious protectionism that the French State and to an extent, Alsthom are excercising.
that's just bla bla bla, you have to be very young to think that a judge will be influenced by something else than a law...

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Your other points continued to make little sense, so I haven't bothered to counter them.
good riddance !
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Old November 14th, 2010, 02:05 PM   #1106
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Originally Posted by caserass View Post
no, it's not what I say whatsoever, I say an invitation to tender has to take into account the safety rules applied into the country who is concerned, in this case France and UK, it is clear that eurostar asked a new designs who didn't fit with the safety rules.
Do you have anything to back this claim? It's certainly illegal to run a train that isn't certified through the tunnel, but is it illegal for a company to buy a train that isn't certified for the tunnel? Seems very unlikely..
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Old November 14th, 2010, 02:16 PM   #1107
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what ? you started by "Not sure you know what you're talking about, but I'll try to clear things up anyway."

you came here to lecture me and now you say you hadn't any claims ! so finally if you haven't anything to say, just shut up.



that's just bla bla bla, you have to be very young to think that a judge will be influenced by something else than a law...



good riddance !
No need to get angry now, please learn the definition of the word "claim". I stated a fact, which was; "I'm not sure what you're talking about". It is a fact that by my own judgement, I had reason to believe that you didn't have sufficient knowledge on this matter. Anyway, back onto topic:

Judges can be influenced by pervious cases, it's common knowledge in the legal industry. Simply because many laws are very vague once you get to the finer details, it's the Judge's decision on how to interpret those laws as relevant to the case, leading to the distinct possibility of the Judge using the outcome and how the outcome was reached from a similar previous case as a "case-study" that they'd use as a guideline on how they ought to conduct future similar cases. For example, in this case: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-11521949
"It is likely to have a knock-on effect to similar policies in other countries." (Although, I admit, it isn't the best example, it's the most usefeul I could find to illustrate my point in this short time)
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Old November 14th, 2010, 03:13 PM   #1108
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no, it's not what I say whatsoever, I say an invitation to tender has to take into account the safety rules applied into the country who is concerned, in this case France and UK, it is clear that eurostar asked a new designs who didn't fit with the safety rules.
It is absolutely _not_ clear that Eurostar asked for a new design that didn't fit with the safety rules. I have so far not seen a single item of evidence that gives credibility to your statement that the e320 could never get a safety certificate under the current regime.
A train only gets a safety certificate after it has been build and tested. In order for the Velaro to get a Eurotunnel safety certificate it has to demonstrate that it can operate safely in the tunnel, and meets the safety requirement. It's for this reason that DB actually did some tests in the tunnel recently. There are a lot of requirements the train has to meet, but apparently both Siemens and Deutsche bahn seem to think that Velaro can meet them.
An Alstom AVG would have to demonstrate safe operation in the tunnel too.

When writing out a call for offers Eurostar naturally would have included the requirement that the train offered gets a safety certificate. That is not unusual. It also sometimes does indeed happen that a train fails to get that certificate, leading to problems for the company ordering the trains, and the supplier having to pay fines. One recent example is the ETR610 for SBB, which still doesn't have a safety certificate for high speed running on the Gotthard route because Alstom build the trains heavier than specified.

But that is normally a problem for the supplier. It's not Eurostar that has to make sure that the new trains get a safety certificate. That's up to Siemens.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 06:54 PM   #1109
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yes my conclusion is sometimes protectionnism can be a good thing and seeing the result the french have had with their public companies, I'm sorry but I cannot see any good reason to stop fighting for them.
La question du protectionnisme en Europe
Je crois que l'UE dispose de règles spécifiques que chacun doit suivre scrupuleusement
Ces règles doivent être respectées par toutes les entreprises y compris les SNCF Sinon, je crois que le corporatisme et le nationalisme peut affecter le processus d'intégration economique et infrastructurelle entre les Etats membres de l'UE...
l'Europe risque d'un processus de concentration par lequel les gouvernements ont le pouvoir de créer une forte pression politique pour aider à protéger intérêts industriels nationaux surtout dans le monopole naturel Le processus de concentration peut conduire à de fortes "asymétries" dans les domaines économique, industrielle et infrastructurelle entre les différents pays européens.

Last edited by Marie-Joseph-Paul; November 14th, 2010 at 11:20 PM.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 05:42 PM   #1110
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^ Please write in frog-language in the french forums only. This is international, thus english speaking. Thanks.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 06:24 PM   #1111
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La question du protectionnisme en Europe
Je crois que l'UE dispose de règles spécifiques que chacun doit suivre scrupuleusement
Ces règles doivent être respectées par toutes les entreprises y compris les SNCF Sinon, je crois que le corporatisme et le nationalisme peut affecter le processus d'intégration economique et infrastructurelle entre les Etats membres de l'UE...
l'Europe risque d'un processus de concentration par lequel les gouvernements ont le pouvoir de créer une forte pression politique pour aider à protéger intérêts industriels nationaux surtout dans le monopole naturel Le processus de concentration peut conduire à de fortes "asymétries" dans les domaines économique, industrielle et infrastructurelle entre les différents pays européens.
totally agree with that, that is why we need European regulations now. National certifications are only a tool to control foreign products to become real competitors.
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Old November 26th, 2010, 11:49 PM   #1112
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Details in Modern Rail for DB's proposed rail service.

It will launch in December 2013, with three 400m(two 200 m Valero units) trains a day to Brussels Midi, where the service will split. Half the train will go to Rotterdam and Amsterdam and the other half to Cologne and Frankfurt. This will be an initial service there may be additional stops at Ebbsfleet/Ashford and Liege/Aachen. If the numbers stack up, additional services would be added. Security requirements limit the number of stops that can be served and services will be 100% reservation to comply with Immigration and security checks.
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Old November 27th, 2010, 03:09 AM   #1113
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Details in Modern Rail for DB's proposed rail service.

It will launch in December 2013, with three 400m(two 200 m Valero units) trains a day to Brussels Midi, where the service will split. Half the train will go to Rotterdam and Amsterdam and the other half to Cologne and Frankfurt. This will be an initial service there may be additional stops at Ebbsfleet/Ashford and Liege/Aachen. If the numbers stack up, additional services would be added. Security requirements limit the number of stops that can be served and services will be 100% reservation to comply with Immigration and security checks.
Good to know they are not planning to allow non-reserved seats to be used on such routes, though it has nothing to do, necessarily, with immigration requirements (you could still book last-minute and pay a fortune for the privilege of travelling on the spur of the moment).

I only hoped they adopted this scheme to all their international IC trains, dropping the possibility of travelling without reservation.
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Old November 27th, 2010, 05:05 AM   #1114
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Why? You want to make rail travel even more unattractive? Without the right tools and web sites it can already be a pain to book a trip by train from a website, which is possible with airlines. I can go to any airline site and get a ticket from Amsterdam to Atlanta to Hawaii and then back to Amsterdam, but I can't easily seem to book train tickets for Amsterdam - Rome - Madrid - Amsterdam.

And you want to make international train travel even more unattractive?
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Old November 27th, 2010, 05:32 AM   #1115
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Why? You want to make rail travel even more unattractive? Without the right tools and web sites it can already be a pain to book a trip by train from a website, which is possible with airlines. I can go to any airline site and get a ticket from Amsterdam to Atlanta to Hawaii and then back to Amsterdam, but I can't easily seem to book train tickets for Amsterdam - Rome - Madrid - Amsterdam.

And you want to make international train travel even more unattractive?
We may never know. If we have a resource, we should make it more efficient, not unatttractive.
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Old November 27th, 2010, 12:41 PM   #1116
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Details in Modern Rail for DB's proposed rail service.

It will launch in December 2013, with three 400m(two 200 m Valero units) trains a day to Brussels Midi, where the service will split. Half the train will go to Rotterdam and Amsterdam and the other half to Cologne and Frankfurt. This will be an initial service there may be additional stops at Ebbsfleet/Ashford and Liege/Aachen. If the numbers stack up, additional services would be added. Security requirements limit the number of stops that can be served and services will be 100% reservation to comply with Immigration and security checks.
I asume they will be 100% reservation between London and Brussels. I asume DB will allow less restrictions on the Brussels - Amsterdam and Brussels - Frankfurt sections. I asume that the immigration check will be done in Brussels South while the train is standing there.

There are currently three trains per day from Frankfurt to Brussel, next year there will be four. I could imagine that DB timetables these trains in such a way as to give a two-hourly service on Frankfurt - Brussel (and thus, together with Thalys an hourly service on Köln - Brussel) and these London bound trains will be open to Brussel (and Liège and Aachen) bound passengers.
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Old November 27th, 2010, 12:42 PM   #1117
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I only hoped they adopted this scheme to all their international IC trains, dropping the possibility of travelling without reservation.
So you are hoping that a company that wants to make money would voluntarily make their product less attractive?
Do you understand anything about the "free market economy" you seem to be such a defender of?
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Old November 27th, 2010, 02:31 PM   #1118
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I asume they will be 100% reservation between London and Brussels. I asume DB will allow less restrictions on the Brussels - Amsterdam and Brussels - Frankfurt sections. I asume that the immigration check will be done in Brussels South while the train is standing there.

There are currently three trains per day from Frankfurt to Brussel, next year there will be four. I could imagine that DB timetables these trains in such a way as to give a two-hourly service on Frankfurt - Brussel (and thus, together with Thalys an hourly service on Köln - Brussel) and these London bound trains will be open to Brussel (and Liège and Aachen) bound passengers.
I don't think so. They assume some form of customs facilities at each of these stops. Which is why they said there won't be many stops on these services. Plus they announced they were going to sell their 10% share of Thalys and were ending their relationship with them.
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Old November 27th, 2010, 03:03 PM   #1119
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So you are hoping that a company that wants to make money would voluntarily make their product less attractive?
Do you understand anything about the "free market economy" you seem to be such a defender of?
I didn't say they should be obliged to do that, just that I hoped it happened. Optional reservation trains have the disadvantage of creating some conflicts when the train is full and some passengers refuse to shop around for free seats (or no seats at ll) to give up their place to the one who reserved the seats.
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Old November 27th, 2010, 05:53 PM   #1120
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I don't think so. They assume some form of customs facilities at each of these stops.
Neither Amsterdam, nor Rotterdam have the facilities for this, nor is it possible to provide them.

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Which is why they said there won't be many stops on these services. Plus they announced they were going to sell their 10% share of Thalys and were ending their relationship with them.
It they intend to compete with Thalys on the Köln - Brussel route it's only logical to open the Frankfurt - London trains to passengers for Frankfurt or Köln to Brussel.
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