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Old December 28th, 2010, 08:00 PM   #1181
Pansori
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How a 40+ year old technology (TGV) is possible not to be behind a 10 year old technology (e.g. Velaro, ICE)? Had it not been behind and obsolete, then why would everyone buy German and Japanese trains and not French ones? So what are the reasons of using locomotives anyway apart from delaying a development of a newer technology?

They delayed the development of a new generation train and therefore are behind. Safety record itself and success in other areas does not explain or justify that.
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Old December 28th, 2010, 10:41 PM   #1182
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I don't think Alstom is outdated or irrelevant at all. They have the people, they have the knowledge, and they have a very good name when it comes to safety. If the locomotive-based TGV is so far behind, then why did ONCF recently purchase a set of TGV Duplex-based trainsets? Why have Korea copied the TGV-design and not the Velaro design?

Of course, trains with distributed power have certain advantages which Alstom is very well aware of. That's why they also switched to distributed traction for their AGV and Speedelia platforms, while retaining other selling points of their trains such as the articulated design. Because of the articulated design, a jacknifing situation (like what happened at Eschede) is very, very unlikely to occur, as has been proven in an accident in England involving a Pendolino train.
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Old December 28th, 2010, 10:55 PM   #1183
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The reality is that locomotive-pulled trains is the past while the present and the future is about distributed motors throughout the train. Alstom is late with it at least a decade. In fact they are now developing their own trains using distributed motors which kinda makes your logic eat itself because this is a clear indicator that Alstom was simply lagging behind and now tries to correct the situation and catch up.

And as to why Moroccans are buying an obsolete technology and why Koreans have copied it? I have no idea and I don't see how is that an indicator that Alstom is not relying on old technology.
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Old December 29th, 2010, 11:01 AM   #1184
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Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
while retaining other selling points of their trains such as the articulated design. Because of the articulated design, a jacknifing situation (like what happened at Eschede) is very, very unlikely to occur, as has been proven in an accident in England involving a Pendolino train.
I am unsure of your point here, the pendolinos are not articulated, so how does an accident with one prove anything about articulated train's safety?
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Old December 29th, 2010, 12:03 PM   #1185
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I don't know if that has anythign to do with coaches but the core issue is technology of HSR. Siemens has been boasting to be "10 years ahead [of the French]" and rightly so. Because Jepanese and Germans have pursued the new generation trains (with traction motors throughout the train as opposed just the locos as in TGVs) for a while now while Alsthom is just going to release their first such train (AGV)... a decade or so behind Siemens and perhaps even more behind the Japanese? They are losers and it looks even more sad when they try to employ politics and protectionism.
not really all the trains made by Siemens aren't really reliable
A series of defects

How Can Germany's High-Speed Trains Get Back on Track?

When you win a contract, the most of the time it's because you are cheaper or because you are making more promises than your competitor, in the case of the Eurostar deal, it's not about technology....
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Old December 29th, 2010, 12:36 PM   #1186
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I am unsure of your point here, the pendolinos are not articulated, so how does an accident with one prove anything about articulated train's safety?
moreover it's simply unfair to bring in Eschede. This happened due to completely different reasons and had in fact nothing to do with the non-articulated design of the ICE 1

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not really all the trains made by Siemens aren't really reliable
A series of defects

How Can Germany's High-Speed Trains Get Back on Track?

When you win a contract, the most of the time it's because you are cheaper or because you are making more promises than your competitor, in the case of the Eurostar deal, it's not about technology....
Wrong; I don't think this has anything to do with Siemens themselves, but with the Deutsche Bahn that - for some reason (*hint*MONEY*hint*) - doesn't give a damn about maintenance and repair. This is not about weak design done by Siemens, but rather about a non-funtioning railway network operated by a reckless company. The tracks are old and overcrowded, signaling is often obsolete and all this creates a situation like this.
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Old December 29th, 2010, 02:05 PM   #1187
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moreover it's simply unfair to bring in Eschede. This happened due to completely different reasons and had in fact nothing to do with the non-articulated design of the ICE 1



Wrong; I don't think this has anything to do with Siemens themselves, but with the Deutsche Bahn that - for some reason (*hint*MONEY*hint*) - doesn't give a damn about maintenance and repair. This is not about weak design done by Siemens, but rather about a non-funtioning railway network operated by a reckless company. The tracks are old and overcrowded, signaling is often obsolete and all this creates a situation like this.

That is the truth to some extent, however, as shown previously, I think Caserass enjoys twisting the words of arguements to suit his own ends and means, he seems to have a very pro-alsthom bias.

I have heard rumours that DB do as you have said, though from my experience thaty have been fine, I simply have not, however, used DB enough to form any strong opinion for or against them.

As a contrasting point to that, the Desiro trainsets used by my local commuter rail provider (South West Trains) have been absolutely fine with only one breakdown affecting my travels the entirety of my use with them, and even then it was only a 5 minute stoppage.

Whether that was due to SWT's good maintenance or the quality of the desiro build remains yet to be seen.
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Old December 29th, 2010, 03:00 PM   #1188
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I browsed aroung a bit and read a bunch of articles about the ICE and to me it seems Caserass is partially right. The whole ICE family has in fact had many problems and often saving cost lead to poor design.


Nonetheless I think the Deutsche Bahn is still the main culprit when it comes down to actual schedule disruptions. I read an article from Der Spiegel that stated that it became clear this fall already that the DB would have severe Problems this winter.
The major problems they have are not coming from the quality of the trains (like last year) but rather the quantity. The DB has absolutely no reserve at all for "special events"(=winter) as they call it.
When winter hit and a lot of airplanes were grounded many people tried to get on the train but there aren't enough trains. Especially in winter there is a lot more maintenance to be done and so DB had to cancel a bunch of trains and unsurprisingly there are loads of overcrowded trains, schedule disruptions and unhappy citizens.
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Old December 29th, 2010, 03:12 PM   #1189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zero Gravity View Post

I browsed aroung a bit and read a bunch of articles about the ICE and to me it seems Caserass is partially right. The whole ICE family has in fact had many problems and often saving cost lead to poor design.


Nonetheless I think the Deutsche Bahn is still the main culprit when it comes down to actual schedule disruptions. I read an article from Der Spiegel that stated that it became clear this fall already that the DB would have severe Problems this winter.
The major problems they have are not coming from the quality of the trains (like last year) but rather the quantity. The DB has absolutely no reserve at all for "special events"(=winter) as they call it.
When winter hit and a lot of airplanes were grounded many people tried to get on the train but there aren't enough trains. Especially in winter there is a lot more maintenance to be done and so DB had to cancel a bunch of trains and unsurprisingly there are loads of overcrowded trains, schedule disruptions and unhappy citizens.
True, but then when you consider it, nearly every new trainset that is brought out today seems to have multiple malfunctions, such as the Finnish pendolino, which kept breaking down in the snow (It couldn't handle the Finnish winters), or the Ansaldo Breda V250 which is absolutely riddled with various major issues.
Of course, nearly every european country has been having snow problems this winter, with exceptionally cold weather affecring so much of europe, it's probably safe to say that most rail operators were rather unprepared, though I have head that DB made an awful mess of things, with delays and cancellations plaguing the services, which cannot be so easily excused.
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Old December 29th, 2010, 06:20 PM   #1190
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Whether that was due to SWT's good maintenance or the quality of the desiro build remains yet to be seen.
Both.
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Old December 29th, 2010, 09:19 PM   #1191
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True, but then when you consider it, nearly every new trainset that is brought out today seems to have multiple malfunctions, such as the Finnish pendolino, which kept breaking down in the snow (It couldn't handle the Finnish winters), or the Ansaldo Breda V250 which is absolutely riddled with various major issues.
"nearly every train". But with a few notable exception. The Stadler Flirt trainsets delivered to Helsinki had an availability of 100% in their first year, and that despite Finland experiencing one of the coldest winters in decades...
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Old December 30th, 2010, 12:02 AM   #1192
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"nearly every train". But with a few notable exception. The Stadler Flirt trainsets delivered to Helsinki had an availability of 100% in their first year, and that despite Finland experiencing one of the coldest winters in decades...
Truly? I didn't know that, that's very surprising
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Old December 30th, 2010, 12:27 AM   #1193
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Quote:
Originally Posted by caserass View Post
not really all the trains made by Siemens aren't really reliable
A series of defects

How Can Germany's High-Speed Trains Get Back on Track?

When you win a contract, the most of the time it's because you are cheaper or because you are making more promises than your competitor, in the case of the Eurostar deal, it's not about technology....
They must be fools to "not care" about technology then because obtaining a 20 year old technology (the "latest" generation of TGVs) instead of a 10 year old one would be somewhat foolish, I think. Even if this is not the only reason it must be one of the major points.
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Old January 2nd, 2011, 04:58 PM   #1194
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Allegro launch cuts Helsinki - St Petersburg journey times

13 December 2010


EUROPE: Helsinki - St Petersburg passenger services were relaunched with the December 12 timetable change, with journey times cut by 2 h to 3½ h following the introduction of Alstom dual-voltage New Pendolino tilting trainsets, infrastructure upgrades to permit running at 220 km/h in Finland and 200 km/h in Russia, and border formalities being undertaken on the move.


Infrastructure work to be completed in 2011 will cut another 30 min from the end-to-end timings.

The upgraded service is operated jointly by Russian Railways and its Finnish counterpart VR under the 'Allegro' brand, replacing their daily Sibelius and Repin locomotive hauled trains. The Tolstoi overnight service from Helsinki to Moscow has been retained.

Finnish President Tarja Halonen joined RZD President Vladimir Yakunin on the inaugural departure from Helsinki at 12.15 on December 12, and public services followed with the 15.00 train.

The initial two daily return services will increase to four in May 2011. Traffic is expected to reach 250 000 passengers in 2011, and the operators aim to triple traffic within 10 years.

Tickets are priced below air fares, and the train avoids the inconvenience of St Petersburg airport. RZD and the Finnish authorities are keen to persuade the Russian government to waive the expensive visa requirements for short trips to the former imperial capital, which they believe would then become a popular and lucrative destination for city breaks

In addition to the four Pendolino trains ordered by the Karelian Trains joint venture of RZD and VR, the project has involved infrastructure upgrades on both sides of the border. Read the full story in the January 2011 issue of Railway Gazette International
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...ney-times.html

This is not a picture of the New Pendolino.
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Old January 2nd, 2011, 07:19 PM   #1195
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What is the fastest average speed of Helsinki-St.Petersburg train? If the distance is something around 400km and it takes 3 hours (after upgrade in 2011) it should be somewhere in the range of 130km/h which doesn't sound like much.
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Old January 2nd, 2011, 07:28 PM   #1196
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[/url]
This is not a picture of the New Pendolino.
yes, they are running older version, which is good for start
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Old January 2nd, 2011, 07:44 PM   #1197
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It's a New Pendolino, but with the old design.
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Old January 2nd, 2011, 10:21 PM   #1198
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It's a New Pendolino, but with the old design.
It really doesn't look like the New Pendolino :

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Old January 2nd, 2011, 10:52 PM   #1199
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image hosted on flickr


This is a photo of the New Pendolino as it was on display during InnoTrans 2010 in Berlin, back in september last year. I snapped this pic myself. This train doesn't look much like the New Pendolino, but it doesn't look much like the Virgin Pendolino's either. It looks more like the ICN.

Virgin Pendolino:

(Source: Wikipedia)

ICN:

(Source: Wikipedia)
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Old January 2nd, 2011, 11:28 PM   #1200
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ICN isn't a Pendolino!

Btw. the Penolinos are horrible trains! both ETR 47 and ETR 610 only cause problems in Switzerland.
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