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Old March 26th, 2011, 12:35 AM   #1221
Hubert Pollak
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadiri View Post
The RENFE and SNCF have choosen TGV Duplex because the link required trains of "high capacity". But the solution adopted now it is the S-100 built derivative of the TGV Atlantique.
What different lines except Barcelona - Paris would be served?
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Old March 26th, 2011, 01:12 AM   #1222
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What different lines except Barcelona - Paris would be served?
Hi there,

According to several magazines, Sncf (and Renfe) are looking for a scheme thus:

-Barcelona-Perpignan-Narbonne-Montpellier-Paris Gare de Lyon
-Barcelona-Perpignan-Narbonne-Montpellier-Avignon-Aix en Provence-Marseilles
-Barcelona-Perpignan-Carcassonne-Toulouse-Bordeaux
-Barcelona-Perpignan-Narbonne-Montpellier-Lyon
-Barcelona-Perpignan-Narbonne-Montpellier-Marne la Vallée (Disneyland)-Roissy (CDG airport)-Lille
-Madrid-Saragossa-Tarragona-Barcelona-Perpignan-Narbonne-Montpellier-Paris Gare de Lyon
-Madrid-Saragossa-Tarragona-Barcelona-Perpignan-Narbonne-Montpellier-Lyon-Bellegarde-Geneva
-Madrid-Saragossa-Tarragona-Barcelona-Perpignan-Narbonne-Montpellier-Avignon-Aix en Provence-Marseilles

Further extensions:

-to Toulon, St Raphael, Cannes and Nice from Marseilles;
-to Dijon, Besançon, Belfort, Mulhouse, Colmar and Strasbourg and maybe further into Germany (Stuttgart? Frankfurt?) from Lyon;
-to Brussels and/or London from Lille;
-to Lausanne, Bern, Zurich or Basel from Lyon;
-to Dijon, Nancy, Metz and Luxemburg;

... are yet to be discussed.

Nothing to Italy unless the famous Lyon-Torino HSL is finished.

As far as we know, that´s it.

Last edited by 437.001; March 26th, 2011 at 01:45 AM.
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Old March 26th, 2011, 01:34 AM   #1223
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-Nothing further south from Tarragona to Valencia nor Alicante due to gauge problems.
-Could be targeted though if the HSL Tarragona-Valencia is finished (about time!).
-Nothing further than Madrid southbound (Seville, Malaga), nor northwestbound (Segovia, Valladolid) because that would be way too long (Paris to Seville is about 2000km!).
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Old March 26th, 2011, 04:21 PM   #1224
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-Nothing further south from Tarragona to Valencia nor Alicante due to gauge problems.
-Could be targeted though if the HSL Tarragona-Valencia is finished (about time!).
-Nothing further than Madrid southbound (Seville, Malaga), nor northwestbound (Segovia, Valladolid) because that would be way too long (Paris to Seville is about 2000km!).
And even Madrid is way too far for the last stop I think; I can't imagine much people going from there to Paris or Geneva, although the night train connecting with Paris would probably be abolished; middle-stops do have potential, as well as Barcelona with any of the aforementioned routes as it is way closer to the rest of Europe... can't wait until Lausanne and Barcelona are directly connected by TGV!
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Old March 26th, 2011, 11:54 PM   #1225
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And even Madrid is way too far for the last stop I think; I can't imagine much people going from there to Paris or Geneva, although the night train connecting with Paris would probably be abolished; middle-stops do have potential, as well as Barcelona with any of the aforementioned routes as it is way closer to the rest of Europe... can't wait until Lausanne and Barcelona are directly connected by TGV!
You´re right that Madrid is too far away from Paris, but not from Lyon, Montpellier or Marseilles.
Anyway the TGVs going to Madrid are not thought as a means of transport from end to end like say, Paris to Madrid, but as a Paris (or Geneva) to Barcelona mixed to southern France (Marseilles, Montpellier) to Madrid.
It´s the only way these trains have a sense, the intermediate stops.

Last edited by 437.001; March 27th, 2011 at 12:00 AM.
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Old March 26th, 2011, 11:59 PM   #1226
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And even Madrid is way too far for the last stop I think; I can't imagine much people going from there to Paris or Geneva, although the night train connecting with Paris would probably be abolished; middle-stops do have potential, as well as Barcelona with any of the aforementioned routes as it is way closer to the rest of Europe... can't wait until Lausanne and Barcelona are directly connected by TGV!
No, the night train from Madrid to Paris won´t be suppressed yet.
The reason is clear: it follows another route, the direct one, via Valladolid, Burgos, Vitoria, San Sebastian, Hendaye, Bordeaux, Poitiers, Tours, Blois, Orleans, which will be served by another HSL.

This night train (a Talgo) will be suppressed the day the HSL will reach Hendaye from the Spanish side, and Bordeaux on the French side.
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Old March 27th, 2011, 03:24 PM   #1227
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High-speed London-Frankfurt link back on track
21 March 2011
The Guardian

Plans to transport 1 million rail passengers a year between Frankfurt and London are back on track as an independent report prepares to back German rail operator Deutsche Bahn in a row over Channel tunnel safety.

DB's ambition to launch a Teutonic Eurostar has been threatened by French objections to the state-of-the-art rolling stock it plans to use in the tunnel. David Cameron and Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, are believed to have raised their concerns about the row with the French government.

However, this week the European Railways Agency is expected to endorse new trains manufactured by Siemens, the German industrial group, which beat France's Alstom to a coveted Eurostar rolling stock order. The order for inter-city express (ICE) trains, which will also be used by DB in its Frankfurt-to-London service, met with opposition on the other side of the tunnel. The French government supported Alstom's argument that the Siemens trains are unsafe because their motors are distributed under each carriage. The row split the Anglo-French intergovernmental commission (IGC) on channel tunnel safety, which resulted in the ERA being asked for a second opinion.

Sources close to the process said the ERA is likely to recommend that so-called "distributed power" trains can be used in the tunnel, clearing the way for the ICE carriages. As a consequence, the IGC is expected to come under further pressure to allow the ICE trains to operate through the tunnel.

DB plans to run 200mph trains from London to Frankfurt, Cologne, Amsterdam and Rotterdam from December 2013.
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Old March 27th, 2011, 03:25 PM   #1228
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EU Calls For Rapid Opening Of Channel Tunnel To New Trains
22 March 2011

BRUSSELS -(Dow Jones)- New trains and rolling stock that comply with the bloc's safety rules should be able to use the Channel Tunnel as soon as possible, the European Commission said Tuesday.

"The opinion from the European Railway Agency has effectively given a green light to other trains, and not just passenger trains, being able to use the Channel Tunnel," a spokeswoman for EU Transport Commissioner Siim Kallas said. "We hope the technical opinion will be implemented as soon as possible."

She added that in the rail watchdog's view it is "totally possible for other trains, not just the existing ones, to use the Channel Tunnel."

The tunnel safety rules have been at the center of a controversy since October, when train operator Eurostar said it was planning to order high-speed trains built by Germany's Siemens AG (SI) instead from French power and transport engineering company Alstom SA (ALO.FR).

Germany's Deutsche Bahn also wants to operate services through the tunnel using its ICE3 trains.

Earlier Tuesday, Alstom said it isn't aware that appropriate studies and tests have been carried out on the safety of new rolling stock to be introduced for Channel Tunnel train services.
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Old March 27th, 2011, 03:38 PM   #1229
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the amount of french protectionism in this whole argument is just embarassing. Just as you thought we would live in the 21st century something like this comes up

(and don't get me wrong, i am well aware this happens in other countries too, but in france things like that seem to go a little over the top )
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Old March 27th, 2011, 04:49 PM   #1230
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Some remarks regarding safety in the Channel Tunnel
22 march 2011

The safety regulations in the Channel Tunnel are under the sole responsibility of the Inter-Governmental Commission (IGC).

The technical position of the European Rail Agency (ERA) states that the operation of distributed power trains in the tunnel could be considered – a point never challenged by Alstom – provided that it can be demonstrated that this rolling stock is as safe as the current Eurostar trains, which means that appropriate safety studies and tests should have been made. Alstom is not informed that such studies and testing have been carried out.

The debate in progress on the safety regulations further underlines that it was not possible for Eurostar to carry out a fair tender and to select a train while the technical framework of the offers was not and is still not known.

Alstom
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Old March 27th, 2011, 05:50 PM   #1231
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shame on Alstom.
its corrumption is limitless.

French government should quit protecting this company and the rest of the world should boycott its products.
where ever Alstom is, there's trouble.
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Old March 27th, 2011, 06:00 PM   #1232
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Finally, I hope this fiasco can be put to rest, the original claims that the EMU trains were unsafe were such blindingly political moves that it was almost embarrasing to read.

Make haste, IGC, and welcome international competition to this line, I look forward to the time where I can catch a direct ICE train to Germany!
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Old March 27th, 2011, 06:19 PM   #1233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Some remarks regarding safety in the Channel Tunnel
22 march 2011

The safety regulations in the Channel Tunnel are under the sole responsibility of the Inter-Governmental Commission (IGC).

The technical position of the European Rail Agency (ERA) states that the operation of distributed power trains in the tunnel could be considered – a point never challenged by Alstom – provided that it can be demonstrated that this rolling stock is as safe as the current Eurostar trains, which means that appropriate safety studies and tests should have been made. Alstom is not informed that such studies and testing have been carried out.

The debate in progress on the safety regulations further underlines that it was not possible for Eurostar to carry out a fair tender and to select a train while the technical framework of the offers was not and is still not known.

Alstom
Well, this makes sense too. I think it's as bad to reject a new trainset on the basis of french protectionism as it is on the basis of anti-french protectionism. Whether the new siemens should run over these tracks should only be a matter of accepting the results of safety studies made by independent researchers, but if no studies have been made then Siemens is to blame, not Alstom, as it's the germans who need to demonstrate the safety of their product.
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Old March 27th, 2011, 06:32 PM   #1234
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Well, this makes sense too. I think it's as bad to reject a new trainset on the basis of french protectionism as it is on the basis of anti-french protectionism. Whether the new siemens should run over these tracks should only be a matter of accepting the results of safety studies made by independent researchers, but if no studies have been made then Siemens is to blame, not Alstom, as it's the germans who need to demonstrate the safety of their product.
We all know that such a study would only delay the introduction of new trainsets as we do know that the results would give a green light anyway. Alstom has been pushed into a corner, it lost and should accept it. Siemens kicks Alstom's ass by at least a decade or so when it comes to advances in their trains and it is laughable when Alstom is questioning the safety of their competitors trains. This is nothing more than a case of pathetic and desperate protectionism and it should be treated as such. I can only applaud the European Comission.
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Old March 28th, 2011, 12:40 PM   #1235
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Astom is just a bunch of crooks. Here, their metro trains failed to meet our safety regulations, but they even went to court (in France, where else), as they do meet EU criteria...problem is, our requirements are stricter than EU regulations, and they cant accept that fact.
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Old March 28th, 2011, 02:15 PM   #1236
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The technical position of the European Rail Agency (ERA) states that the operation of distributed power trains in the tunnel could be considered – a point never challenged by Alstom – provided that it can be demonstrated that this rolling stock is as safe as the current Eurostar trains, which means that appropriate safety studies and tests should have been made. Alstom is not informed that such studies and testing have been carried out.
If it was not reasonably certain that a train with distributed power would be acceptable in the Channel Tunnel, why then did Alstom offer a train with distributed power to Eurostar?
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Old March 28th, 2011, 08:53 PM   #1237
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Here, their metro trains failed to meet our safety regulations, but they even went to court (in France, where else), as they do meet EU criteria...problem is, our requirements are stricter than EU regulations, and they cant accept that fact.
Alstom promotes corrumption worldwide.

in Argentina, transport minister that signed Alstoms contract for TGV is now in prison...
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Old March 29th, 2011, 12:08 PM   #1238
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If it was not reasonably certain that a train with distributed power would be acceptable in the Channel Tunnel, why then did Alstom offer a train with distributed power to Eurostar?
Precisely.

And @Suissetralia both Siemens and Alstom did a safety review to a certain extent when they submitted their distributed traction EMU designs to Eurostar. The fact that the existing safety requirements for the Channel Tunnel have done nothing but cause problems at every incident since the tunnel opened (and often made things far worse than they needed to be) all parties knew the rule-book was being torn up and re-written.

Its just dumb political involvement attempting to close the stable door after the horse has bolted.

Anyway, latest Issue 261 of The Railway Herald confirms the ERA have approved the distributed traction in proinciple, and the use of short-formed units (ie less than the 400m previously required) and DB hope to have gained some sort of safety case for their modified ICE3 units by the end of this summer. Service still due to begin proper in 2013 though.
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Old March 29th, 2011, 02:30 PM   #1239
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The fact that the existing safety requirements for the Channel Tunnel have done nothing but cause problems at every incident since the tunnel opened (and often made things far worse than they needed to be) all parties knew the rule-book was being torn up and re-written.
Given that another long tunnel is about to open, with a safety regime far less stringent would also have prompted changes. At least in a rational world...
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Old March 29th, 2011, 07:36 PM   #1240
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Given that another long tunnel is about to open, with a safety regime far less stringent would also have prompted changes. At least in a rational world...
Maybe the Gotthard tunnel should have its safety requirements improved... not the Eurotunnel have its safety standards downgraded.
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