EUROPE | Eurostar and Inter-country Railways

[K_]

Originally Posted by kerouac1848

There is a market for some sleepers if the price and time is right and the marketing good.

London-Barcelona, for example, up to 12 hrs at between €150-175 rtn (total cost) could work if marketed heavily because it can in some situations; a) cut out paying for a hotel on a wasted day; b) cut out the hassle and stress of early morning flights, which often lead to wasted days.

On London - Barcelona it would already be a good start of through ticketing for a combination of Eurostart - Ellipsos was offered.

[sekelsenmat]

Originally Posted by K_

This summer I'm travelling to Split, over a line that has more night trains than day trains... HR has very nice sleeping cars :-)

Are you travelling Zagreb-Split? I took a quick look at how convenient travelling by night train to croacia would be, but I haven't found something like Vienna-Split or Prague-Split, or something similar.

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch

I agree. Night trains were killed or left to slowly rot in many countries to make high-speed day time traffic more profitable.

This make no sense. The size of night train market was never that relevant to the point of - for instance - be a make-or-brake factor on daytime trains.

Deutsche Bahn, just by accident tried to give night trains one last chance before scratching them, then discovered that they actually work and thus upkept and sometimes even brought back previously scrapped lines, such as Amsterdam - Berlin.

DB created a whole-owned subsidiary, CityNightLine, to operate such services. Unsubsidized and operated as a single company, instead of a joint operation like many EC services around Europe.

However, CNL services area a nich market. A single daytime ICE carries more passenger than 4 CNL trains together. Morevoer, one shall not be impressed by CNL network map: usually each of these routes comprise only 2 or 3 through cars that are shuffled in the middle of the night in different combinations, which only add to their lackluster average speed. It is not like they had 9 München-København cars.

Internationally unfortunately we have entered the age of national wars between different rail companies which have killed many overnight inter-country trains. The principally laudable Elypso night trains cost a small fortune, are thus hardly competitive, but they show what even conventional trains can do in one night.

Some people will always be against rail competition, like network were the only factor that mattered. It is a parallel argument to the one that followed the dismantling of European-coordinated intra-continental air schedules in favor of liberalization and free market (whose results are overwhelmingly positive).

The whole concept of "national railroad" in Europe is fading, also. You already have separate managers of infrastructure and operations, and surprisingly even with state-owned ones (RFF and SNCF) we're seeing the desired results (healthy conflict about fees and structure instead of collusion to keep outsiders out).

Originally Posted by groentje

Many night trains were withdrawn, the last couple of years. In spite of heavy ridership on them. Of course, some probably where unprofitable, even with the high occupancy. But some where withdrawn simply because of the break up of some co-operations between European railway companies in the nineties

Some night trains were subsidized, and that is totally wrong. There is no case to subsidize international travelling on night trains. Period.

Even as recent as this year, a Dutch company had to halt it's autotrain service to the south of France, because of a new tax implemented in France, which deliberately discriminates against foreign train cars.

Not exactly that. RFF changed its fee structure to increase the fee per rail car instead of fee per gross ton or fee per train. Autotrains naturally have long, very long consists, so they are at a disadvantage - and they were another niche market, not a very relevant one.

Of course, there will always be people prefering to drive, or to fly, or even go on foot to Spain (Santiago de Compostela, anyone?), but I am convinced the market for a night train is larger than actually catered for.

Ultimately, it goes down to price. There will be some extreme savers that will take the cheapest option. If you drive on southern European highways (like the whole stretch connecting Barcelona to Bratislava via France and Italy), you'll see here and there some ultra, dirty (literally) cheap buses hauling Passengers from Romania and Bulgaria to Spain, France and Italy at incredibly cheap fares in 50h, 60h-long trips. It's a niche market. You have some backpacker-oriented circular bus routes that take them on the cheap in partnership with hostels.

The question is: how much would night trains with sleepers (with individual showers and WCs, not couchettes resembling military transport cars) that you don't have to share would cost? They ought to be heavy in first place (the average weight/seat ratio for HS trains is anything from 550-1.200 kg/passenger seat available). Then, they have to pay high trackage fees, as many HSR lines were built on PPP requiring such fees to pay for loans taken to build them.

There might be the case that you couldn't find an equilibrium price that pays for the train costs and attracts ridership willing to compromise several hours on rails overnight instead of couple hours in the air.

Originally Posted by sekelsenmat

Things are not so bad for night trains, the DBahn night train network is quite big, see this image.

As I wrote above, this map doesn't say anything about density of traffic. Many of those lines comprise only 2-3 cars. 92-passenger capacity between Amsterdam and København doesn't seem to be relevant.

Originally Posted by groentje

Not all nighttrains are gone, I agree. Apart from DB, you have e.g. SNCF that still operates a number of Lunéa trains, but Lille was scrapped as a starting point, and many destinations were, too.

There is no point for SNCF to keep operating a Lille-Lyon night train when you can do that sector, daytime, in couple hours on a TGV. I'm following closely the withdraw of several night trains in Italy. Geography made night trains somehow popular in Italy up to the 1990s when cheap air fares started popping up. Then, you had high(er) speed trains rolled in on the main HSL axis. That essentially killed the rationale for Napoli-Bologna night trains, for instance.

Now, apart from 2 services that are slatted for withdrawn within 2 years, there are only another 3 or 4 "Espresso" trains that are, essentially, crappy stop-everywhere trains that takes 18h from Milano, Torino and Venezia to Bari, Palermo/Reggio Calabria/Siracusa whose only merit is that they cost € 59 on the cheapest SEATS, on cars without a/c (2nd class only), but deliver passengers in smaller cities where there are no flights. But it takes 14h for a Milano-REggio Calabria journey.

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by K_

On London - Barcelona it would already be a good start of through ticketing for a combination of Eurostart - Ellipsos was offered.

Because that involves an overland transfer in Paris, such joint tickets would leave Eurostar and Elypsos liable for disruptions caused by RAPT. And it would add a gruesome RER/Métro journey between Paris Nord and Paris Lyon.

[Suburbanist]

// double posting //

[Sopomon]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Because that involves an overland transfer in Paris, such joint tickets would leave Eurostar and Elypsos liable for disruptions caused by RAPT. And it would add a gruesome RER/Métro journey between Paris Nord and Paris Lyon.

Interconnexion Est?

[K_]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Because that involves an overland transfer in Paris, such joint tickets would leave Eurostar and Elypsos liable for disruptions caused by RAPT. And it would add a gruesome RER/Métro journey between Paris Nord and Paris Lyon.

The journey between Paris Nord and Paris Lyon is not gruesome. But they could ofcourse organize a transfer service. (The Elipsos train leaves from Paris - Austerlitz btw.).
But ticket wise this is not a problem. You can buy tickets involving a transfer in London, that include the underground, where you are even covered in case of disruptions... Why should this not be possible in Paris?

[K_]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Not exactly that. RFF changed its fee structure to increase the fee per rail car instead of fee per gross ton or fee per train. Autotrains naturally have long, very long consists, so they are at a disadvantage - and they were another niche market, not a very relevant one.

Path fees are calculated by axle count and weight, in France as elsewhere.
However what RFF did is add a fixed tax to each vehicle circulating in France, regardless of how often it circulates there. This makes it especially difficult for operators of seasonal trains, as it increases their overhead significantly. This is a discriminatory tax that RFF instated with the purpose of make life harder on small foreign operators... The French railway system is still light years away from being open access...

Ultimately, it goes down to price. There will be some extreme savers that will take the cheapest option. If you drive on southern European highways (like the whole stretch connecting Barcelona to Bratislava via France and Italy), you'll see here and there some ultra, dirty (literally) cheap buses hauling Passengers from Romania and Bulgaria to Spain, France and Italy at incredibly cheap fares in 50h, 60h-long trips. It's a niche market. You have some backpacker-oriented circular bus routes that take them on the cheap in partnership with hostels.

The question is: how much would night trains with sleepers (with individual showers and WCs, not couchettes resembling military transport cars) that you don't have to share would cost?

People willing to otherwise spend a night on a bus, don't need compartments with showers. They will gladly spend a few euros more for couchettes. After all, if the choice is between a 49,- Eurolines bus, or a 49,- couchette on a CNL train, the train already wins. But it is quite interesting to see that it is exactly the more expensive compartments that sell out first... So I guess they're not to expensive.

And both SNCF and DB even run night time HSTs...

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by K_

The journey between Paris Nord and Paris Lyon is not gruesome. But they could ofcourse organize a transfer service. (The Elipsos train leaves from Paris - Austerlitz btw.).
But ticket wise this is not a problem. You can buy tickets involving a transfer in London, that include the underground, where you are even covered in case of disruptions... Why should this not be possible in Paris?

The problem of transferring in Paris (or London, for that matter) is not about ticketing, is about comfort. Eurostar, TGV, Thalys all make a case for their superior level of comfort, and like to brand themselves as competitors for airplanes, but more reliable, with bigger seats and so. Then, you have to add a commuter journey to change trains in Paris or London in routes like Orleans-London or Paris-Birmingham.

Regardless of any ticketing arrangement, that brings two issues. It requires much longer transfer times, as you can't count with certainty the transfer time within Paris, adding to the transfer time. Second, it brings a serious comfort issue. I will not be convinced by anyone that moving yourself from Gare du Nord to Gare d'Austerlitz is smooth or comfortable around afternoon peak, especially if you have 2 pieces of luggage with you.

Those transfers in Paris and London cripple the market reach of Eurostar and other HS services departing from Paris.

[K_]

Originally Posted by sekelsenmat

Are you travelling Zagreb-Split? I took a quick look at how convenient travelling by night train to croacia would be, but I haven't found something like Vienna-Split or Prague-Split, or something similar.

Yes. Previously I always would do Zürich - Zagreb by night, and Zagreb - Split by day, but now I0'm doing Zürich - Zagreb by day, and Zagreb - Split by night. This because the doubles on the Zürich - Zagreb night trains was already sold out when I tried to book one (2 months in advance! Who says night trains aren't used...) . Anyway, I'll get to see some nice Austrian scenery this time...

Split has three night trains from Zagreb, one of which originates in Budapest. There used to be a Prague - Split too. When I was a kid in Belgium there was even an Oostende - Split, but I never got to travel on it.

[K_]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

The problem of transferring in Paris (or London, for that matter) is not about ticketing, is about comfort. Eurostar, TGV, Thalys all make a case for their superior level of comfort, and like to brand themselves as competitors for airplanes, but more reliable, with bigger seats and so. Then, you have to add a commuter journey to change trains in Paris or London in routes like Orleans-London or Paris-Birmingham.

Eurostar does sell through tickets with transfers in Paris or London. So the marketing people at Eurostar seem to disagree with you here. (I doubt that there are many people working in the rail, or even airline industry that share your points of view...)

Regardless of any ticketing arrangement, that brings two issues. It requires much longer transfer times, as you can't count with certainty the transfer time within Paris, adding to the transfer time. Second, it brings a serious comfort issue. I will not be convinced by anyone that moving yourself from Gare du Nord to Gare d'Austerlitz is smooth or comfortable around afternoon peak, especially if you have 2 pieces of luggage with you.

Someone used to travel by train will arrange his luggage to be easily moved through public transport. Or do you really think that everyone arriving at st. Pancras needs to be within a few blocks of that station? No, taking an underground or commuter train is part of most Eurostar or TGV trips. So it should not be a surprise that hving a underground or commuter trains between to HST trips is not a problem for most travellers.
Having a through ticket also places the risk of missed connections on the railways, not on the traveller. If you buy a Manchester - Paris ticket and for some reason the Manchester - London train is late and you miss your booked Eurostar they will put you on the next one without fuss.

And at least you can still take 2 pieces of luggage with you on a train :-)

Those transfers in Paris and London cripple the market reach of Eurostar and other HS services departing from Paris.

It would be nice not to have those transfers. But to make Eurostar really convenient we have to get rid of the security theatre first.

[sekelsenmat]

Originally Posted by K_

Someone used to travel by train will arrange his luggage to be easily moved through public transport. Or do you really think that everyone arriving at st. Pancras needs to be within a few blocks of that station? No, taking an underground or commuter train is part of most Eurostar or TGV trips. So it should not be a surprise that hving a underground or commuter trains between to HST trips is not a problem for most travellers.

I have to agree with Suburbanist here. To use trains one already needs to do the following:

city transit => train => possibly a second train => transport in the destination city

And the city transport part is the slowest and most inconvenient one, but you just can't avoid it, although you can always get a taxi. But adding yet another city transit in the middle of the trip, as opposed to simply changing platform, is a major annoyance which makes the train route much less attractive.

The obvious solution would be to make a rail tunel from Gare d'Lyon to somewhere between Gare Nord and Gare d'Est, and make an underground station there connected to those two other ones. And a similar tunel for that other Gare to the west. No plans for that?

[K_]

Originally Posted by sekelsenmat

I have to agree with Suburbanist here. To use trains one already needs to do the following:

city transit => train => possibly a second train => transport in the destination city

And the city transport part is the slowest and most inconvenient one, but you just can't avoid it, although you can always get a taxi. But adding yet another city transit in the middle of the trip, as opposed to simply changing platform, is a major annoyance which makes the train route much less attractive.

It is a major annoyance. However, Suburbanist called it "gruesome" and a complete impediment to travel. Even though it is annoying a lot of people do put up with the annoyance.

The obvious solution would be to make a rail tunel from Gare d'Lyon to somewhere between Gare Nord and Gare d'Est, and make an underground station there connected to those two other ones. And a similar tunel for that other Gare to the west. No plans for that?

Such tunnels already exist. They are called the RER...
No, a better solution is what SNCF is actually currently working on: Get the intersector TGVs (the ones running from somewhere not Paris to somewhere else not Paris) in one integrated schedule with convenient interchange points. Then the Paris terminals would mostly only serve people going to Paris. People arriving on Eurostar going to other places in France would for example change in Lille, passengers from Switzerland for other places would change in Dijon or Lyon etc...

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by K_

Such tunnels already exist. They are called the RER...
No, a better solution is what SNCF is actually currently working on: Get the intersector TGVs (the ones running from somewhere not Paris to somewhere else not Paris) in one integrated schedule with convenient interchange points. Then the Paris terminals would mostly only serve people going to Paris. People arriving on Eurostar going to other places in France would for example change in Lille, passengers from Switzerland for other places would change in Dijon or Lyon etc...

When these tunnels are opened, such problems would be minimized.

Originally Posted by K_

Someone used to travel by train will arrange his luggage to be easily moved through public transport. Or do you really think that everyone arriving at st. Pancras needs to be within a few blocks of that station? No, taking an underground or commuter train is part of most Eurostar or TGV trips. So it should not be a surprise that hving a underground or commuter trains between to HST trips is not a problem for most travellers.
Having a through ticket also places the risk of missed connections on the railways, not on the traveller.

I might be wrong, but I'd bet that on routes like Eurostar Paris-London, or Köln-Paris, or Barcelona-Madrid, the share of passengers on the trains that also own a car and don't use transit on a daily basis is far higher than in your average Intercity trip, in the same pattern by which many of airplane passengers don't use PT to get to the airport, but taxis, car transfers, spouse/relative picking you up etc.

Some airports like Frankfurt-am-Main or Schiphol, despite having high-speed train stations well integrated with its terminal facilities, still have a large share of passengers arriving by road in private/rented cars.

I think high-speed trains probably attract a sizable portion of former air traffic in routes like London-Paris, Milano-Roma and so. High-speed trains are above a certain comfort threshold that local transit might not be, so these people would take a taxi to the airport, now they take a taxi to the train station (and not a subway or a commuter train).

In Italy that is certainly the case. Many passengers using the "Freccia" will not venture on local commuter trains, Milano or Roma metro, or local buses, but take the trains substituting for the flight, and for the flight only.

[mcarling]

Originally Posted by sekelsenmat

The obvious solution would be to make a rail tunel from Gare d'Lyon to somewhere between Gare Nord and Gare d'Est, and make an underground station there connected to those two other ones. And a similar tunel for that other Gare to the west. No plans for that?

In my opinion, the best long-term solution would be to build a new deep underground TGV station somewhere in central Paris with tunnels exiting the platforms in both directions and connecting to all the LGV lines. Then all TGV services in Paris should be transferred to the new station. There would be no need for separate trains to Paris versus bypassing Paris, which would increase schedule convenience for everyone.

Republique would be central enough and has excellent Metro connections. Excavation would be easier than in most places in Paris, but it would still be extremely expensive.

[Coccodrillo]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

In Italy that is certainly the case. Many passengers using the "Freccia" will not venture on local commuter trains, Milano or Roma metro, or local buses, but take the trains substituting for the flight, and for the flight only.

That's would not be surprising, as trains often don't connect to each other

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by Coccodrillo

That's would not be surprising, as trains often don't connect to each other

Not true. There are 2 subway lines with direct access to Milano Centrale, 2 with direct access to Roma Termini, the tramway of Firenze has a station integrated with Firenze S.M.N. etc. Commuter rail is accessible in Milano via subway + underground walkway to Porta Garibaldi. Napoli and Bologna also have connections with their main HSR stations.

What more would one wish for? A Frecciarossa with through cars Roma Termini - Sondrio ?

[Coccodrillo]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

What more would one wish for? A Frecciarossa with through cars Roma Termini - Sondrio ?

An example for Sundays:

Cuneo 5.00-Torino Porta Nuova 6.25 (regional)
Cuneo 7.10-Torino Porta Nuova 8.30 (regional)

Torino Porta Nuova 8.25-Milano Porta Garibaldi 9.19-Roma 12.55 (high speed)
Torino Porta Nuova 8.25-Piacenza-Bologna-Ancona (intercity)

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by Coccodrillo

An example for Sundays:

Cuneo 5.00-Torino Porta Nuova 6.25 (regional)
Cuneo 7.10-Torino Porta Nuova 8.30 (regional)

Torino Porta Nuova 8.25-Milano Porta Garibaldi 9.19-Roma 12.55 (high speed)
Torino Porta Nuova 8.25-Piacenza-Bologna-Ancona (intercity)

So what? A minor Piemontese line arrives 2h before departure or the Frecciarossa... Should every minor line coming to Torino from the mountains of Piemonte to be timed with national HSR, like there were a huge number of people travelling from Cuneo or other villages to Roma or to Ancona?

[Coccodrillo]

This reply clearly shows that you are not an economist as you pretend to be, but just one of many ideologists.

Any real competent manager would quickly realise that, as all these trains have to run anyway, scheduling them in a logic way would lead to an increase in ridership with a low expense. There are dozen of similar examples in Italy, where a lot of possible passengers (and revenue) are lost without any significant saving of money just because of incompetence.