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Old June 3rd, 2011, 02:04 AM   #1301
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Must be like those weirdos who pay €200 to stay in a hotel for a night, you know...sleeping.

The price of air fares is only going to go one way.
I first read that in 2006... and in the late 1980s there were already people saying night trains would be the future of travel.
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Old June 3rd, 2011, 03:14 AM   #1302
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No way. To keep daytime services reliability above 99% without buffed up schedules to make up for delay, HSR lines need to be closed at night for maintenance. And overnight trains are outdated, a thing of the 70s.

When you have bed, toilet and shower in train the travel is great. Dinner in restaurant and full breakfast, That's why I love Elipsos ans Spain trenhotels I think night trains are the future but only as high class hotel on wheel.
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Old June 3rd, 2011, 04:27 AM   #1303
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I repeat: the number of passengers travelling in night trains is slim. And the biggest compartment is smaller than 1/3 of an Etap cheap hotel room.

Moreover, there are no night trains running on high-speed tracks! Therefore you take 9h between Paris and Barcelona, which is totally outrageous if not for a tiny minority of rail enthusiasts.

If you sum up all overnight train services in Europe, including all CityNightLine services, you'd have no more than 5000-7200 passengers CAPACITY on such trains (not considering lower load factors). That is peanuts, less than the capacity of 11 regional jets doing each 4 short hops a day (a very conservative figure for regional operations within Europe, indeed).

Surely there would be a market for people spending excruciating 10 hours in a train running high-speed between London and Milano without a single km of conventional track. But, again, that is a niche. I, for instance, having time would happily drive from Netherlands to Portugal instead of driving, alternating day and night drivings with a fellow drive mate. However, I'm perfectly conscious that I'm part of a tiny minority of people that really enjoy driving at sunset in Lille and arrive at sunrise in Toulouse behind the wheel and I don't honestly think many people think that such journeys are feasible. There are quite a few cruisers making the trip between UK and US, namely the Queen Mary 2, but that doesn't mean that a 7-night transatlantic cruise (3 nights longer than in 1938) is suddenly a "viable competitor" of transatlantic 7-hour flights. Then, I get impressed by people who enjoy slow moving night journeys on trains arguing that it could be a market for the masses.
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Old June 3rd, 2011, 04:37 AM   #1304
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I repeat: the number of passengers travelling in night trains is slim. And the biggest compartment is smaller than 1/3 of an Etap cheap hotel room.

Moreover, there are no night trains running on high-speed tracks! Therefore you take 9h between Paris and Barcelona, which is totally outrageous if not for a tiny minority of rail enthusiasts.

If you sum up all overnight train services in Europe, including all CityNightLine services, you'd have no more than 5000-7200 passengers CAPACITY on such trains (not considering lower load factors). That is peanuts, less than the capacity of 11 regional jets doing each 4 short hops a day (a very conservative figure for regional operations within Europe, indeed).

Surely there would be a market for people spending excruciating 10 hours in a train running high-speed between London and Milano without a single km of conventional track. But, again, that is a niche. I, for instance, having time would happily drive from Netherlands to Portugal instead of driving, alternating day and night drivings with a fellow drive mate. However, I'm perfectly conscious that I'm part of a tiny minority of people that really enjoy driving at sunset in Lille and arrive at sunrise in Toulouse behind the wheel and I don't honestly think many people think that such journeys are feasible. There are quite a few cruisers making the trip between UK and US, namely the Queen Mary 2, but that doesn't mean that a 7-night transatlantic cruise (3 nights longer than in 1938) is suddenly a "viable competitor" of transatlantic 7-hour flights. Then, I get impressed by people who enjoy slow moving night journeys on trains arguing that it could be a market for the masses.
And when do you propose time for maintenance on those HSR tracks that gets beaten to hell with the high speed?
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Old June 3rd, 2011, 10:36 AM   #1305
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I repeat: the number of passengers travelling in night trains is slim.
We are talking about expanding it...

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Moreover, there are no night trains running on high-speed tracks! Therefore you take 9h between Paris and Barcelona, which is totally outrageous if not for a tiny minority of rail enthusiasts.

Surely there would be a market for people spending excruciating 10 hours in a train running high-speed between London and Milano without a single km of conventional track.
You seam to be (deliberately) misunderstanding that the passengers are asleep, therefore the train can take as long as it likes, as long as they arrive by morning. This is not the same as a two week cruise vs transatlantic flight - it gets you there at equivalent time or better. Why getting up at 3 am to catch a red eye flight is seen as preferable I have no idea.
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Old June 3rd, 2011, 12:24 PM   #1306
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And when do you propose time for maintenance on those HSR tracks that gets beaten to hell with the high speed?
Right now many High Speed Lines are used at night too. So it appears that this problem is solvable.
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Old June 3rd, 2011, 12:26 PM   #1307
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No way. To keep daytime services reliability above 99% without buffed up schedules to make up for delay, HSR lines need to be closed at night for maintenance.
You don't need to close the whole line. You can close just one track, and have traffic on the other track. Traffic is always lighter at night.
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Old June 3rd, 2011, 02:01 PM   #1308
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You don't need to close the whole line. You can close just one track, and have traffic on the other track. Traffic is always lighter at night.
Only with a speed reduction. It is totally unconceivable that a crew will be checking radio boxes on track 1 and a train cruising at 280km/h on track 2, couple meters aside.
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Old June 3rd, 2011, 07:03 PM   #1309
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BTW, RZD seems to be enthusiastic about launching Moscow-Minsk-Warsaw-Berlin night train. It already has one conventional, but it takes 24 hours because of a) need of bogie replacement at Brest b) low speed limitations trough Belarus, which is crappy. The new train would be a Talgo with automatic gauge change (some variation of Talgo 250 maybe?*).


* Talgo 250 is 220 under broad gauge and 250 under standard|european.
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Last edited by XAN_; June 3rd, 2011 at 07:19 PM.
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Old June 3rd, 2011, 07:13 PM   #1310
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need of boogie replacement
Is this some kind of new musical requirement?
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Old June 3rd, 2011, 07:20 PM   #1311
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Is this some kind of new musical requirement?
Damn spellcheck in FF 4! It dont know about bogie, so corrects it to boogie
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Old June 3rd, 2011, 11:56 PM   #1312
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BTW, RZD seems to be enthusiastic about launching Moscow-Minsk-Warsaw-Berlin night train. It already has one conventional, but it takes 24 hours because of a) need of bogie replacement at Brest b) low speed limitations trough Belarus, which is crappy. The new train would be a Talgo with automatic gauge change (some variation of Talgo 250 maybe?*).


* Talgo 250 is 220 under broad gauge and 250 under standard|european.
I hope it doesn't happen, as we need to isolate, not integrate, Belarus, a country whose leadership is under political and economic sanctions from EU (though relatively mild ones).
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Old June 4th, 2011, 12:04 AM   #1313
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I hope it doesn't happen, as we need to isolate, not integrate, Belarus, a country whose leadership is under political and economic sanctions from EU (though relatively mild ones).
Lolwhat? This train isn't for Belorussians, for most of them it's just to expensive. This trains aims on Moscowians and Berliners/Germans...
Also, railways shouldn't be that close to all kinds of political b******t.
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Old June 4th, 2011, 12:09 AM   #1314
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I hope it doesn't happen, as we need to isolate, not integrate, Belarus, a country whose leadership is under political and economic sanctions from EU (though relatively mild ones).
I respectfully disagree. I believe engagement is more likely than isolation to result in reform in Belarus.
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Old June 4th, 2011, 11:51 AM   #1315
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Only with a speed reduction. It is totally unconceivable that a crew will be checking radio boxes on track 1 and a train cruising at 280km/h on track 2, couple meters aside.
Indeed speed will need to be restricted, but that only means adding a few minutes to the night train's schedule, which is not a problem (and is already common nowadays anyway)
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Old June 5th, 2011, 06:18 PM   #1316
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There is a market for some sleepers if the price and time is right and the marketing good.

London-Barcelona, for example, up to 12 hrs at between €150-175 rtn (total cost) could work if marketed heavily because it can in some situations; a) cut out paying for a hotel on a wasted day; b) cut out the hassle and stress of early morning flights, which often lead to wasted days.
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Old June 5th, 2011, 06:32 PM   #1317
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There is a market for some sleepers if the price and time is right and the marketing good.

London-Barcelona, for example, up to 12 hrs at between €150-175 rtn (total cost) could work if marketed heavily because it can in some situations; a) cut out paying for a hotel on a wasted day; b) cut out the hassle and stress of early morning flights, which often lead to wasted days.
That is impossible. Even if you had a 20-car sleeper train to compete with cheap chain hotels (meaning cabins with private toilets, showers and Wi-Fi), you couldn't fit much people in each train. Trackage fees for high-speed travel between London and Barcelona would eat a lot of money for not many passengers to share its burden.

Modern sleepers with all those amenities will probably cost a hell of money also.

So, yes, there is a market, but not a very big one I'd say.
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Old June 5th, 2011, 06:45 PM   #1318
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That is impossible. Even if you had a 20-car sleeper train to compete with cheap chain hotels (meaning cabins with private toilets, showers and Wi-Fi), you couldn't fit much people in each train. Trackage fees for high-speed travel between London and Barcelona would eat a lot of money for not many passengers to share its burden.

Modern sleepers with all those amenities will probably cost a hell of money also.
Depends who was doing it and what their aims were. If Eurostar decided to offer this service it may be willing to except small profits - or even subsidise a loss-making service - if it boosts total company profits as part of a wider corporate strategy for the longer term.

I think in the beginning, customers would be holiday dwellers rather than those just looking for a flight (e.g. students returning home for the holidays, where price is probably the most important factor). In this sense, packaging it with accommodation, etc as a break (something Eurostar do a lot of anyway) may hide its true costs, making the service more attractive.

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So, yes, there is a market, but not a very big one I'd say.
I agree, certainly for the present.
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Old June 5th, 2011, 07:16 PM   #1319
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Well, modern 200 km\h (Russian, for example) sleeper car have rather reasonable pricing per unit, and conventional 200-220 railways still can bring your rather far away during 1 night.
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Old June 5th, 2011, 07:46 PM   #1320
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I think in the beginning, customers would be holiday dwellers rather than those just looking for a flight (e.g. students returning home for the holidays, where price is probably the most important factor). In this sense, packaging it with accommodation, etc as a break (something Eurostar do a lot of anyway) may hide its true costs, making the service more attractive.
Than, daytime trips on seats could be more appealing as you could reduce the costs.

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Well, modern 200 km\h (Russian, for example) sleeper car have rather reasonable pricing per unit, and conventional 200-220 railways still can bring your rather far away during 1 night.
There aren't many European main rail lines where a train could cruise 200km/h at night. Most of them are dedicated to freight traffic late at night until next morning.
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