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Old June 8th, 2011, 06:57 PM   #1341
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Such tunnels already exist. They are called the RER...
No, a better solution is what SNCF is actually currently working on: Get the intersector TGVs (the ones running from somewhere not Paris to somewhere else not Paris) in one integrated schedule with convenient interchange points. Then the Paris terminals would mostly only serve people going to Paris. People arriving on Eurostar going to other places in France would for example change in Lille, passengers from Switzerland for other places would change in Dijon or Lyon etc...
When these tunnels are opened, such problems would be minimized.

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Someone used to travel by train will arrange his luggage to be easily moved through public transport. Or do you really think that everyone arriving at st. Pancras needs to be within a few blocks of that station? No, taking an underground or commuter train is part of most Eurostar or TGV trips. So it should not be a surprise that hving a underground or commuter trains between to HST trips is not a problem for most travellers.
Having a through ticket also places the risk of missed connections on the railways, not on the traveller.
I might be wrong, but I'd bet that on routes like Eurostar Paris-London, or Köln-Paris, or Barcelona-Madrid, the share of passengers on the trains that also own a car and don't use transit on a daily basis is far higher than in your average Intercity trip, in the same pattern by which many of airplane passengers don't use PT to get to the airport, but taxis, car transfers, spouse/relative picking you up etc.

Some airports like Frankfurt-am-Main or Schiphol, despite having high-speed train stations well integrated with its terminal facilities, still have a large share of passengers arriving by road in private/rented cars.

I think high-speed trains probably attract a sizable portion of former air traffic in routes like London-Paris, Milano-Roma and so. High-speed trains are above a certain comfort threshold that local transit might not be, so these people would take a taxi to the airport, now they take a taxi to the train station (and not a subway or a commuter train).

In Italy that is certainly the case. Many passengers using the "Freccia" will not venture on local commuter trains, Milano or Roma metro, or local buses, but take the trains substituting for the flight, and for the flight only.
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Old June 8th, 2011, 08:59 PM   #1342
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The obvious solution would be to make a rail tunel from Gare d'Lyon to somewhere between Gare Nord and Gare d'Est, and make an underground station there connected to those two other ones. And a similar tunel for that other Gare to the west. No plans for that?
In my opinion, the best long-term solution would be to build a new deep underground TGV station somewhere in central Paris with tunnels exiting the platforms in both directions and connecting to all the LGV lines. Then all TGV services in Paris should be transferred to the new station. There would be no need for separate trains to Paris versus bypassing Paris, which would increase schedule convenience for everyone.

Republique would be central enough and has excellent Metro connections. Excavation would be easier than in most places in Paris, but it would still be extremely expensive.
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Old June 8th, 2011, 09:00 PM   #1343
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In Italy that is certainly the case. Many passengers using the "Freccia" will not venture on local commuter trains, Milano or Roma metro, or local buses, but take the trains substituting for the flight, and for the flight only.
That's would not be surprising, as trains often don't connect to each other
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Old June 8th, 2011, 09:34 PM   #1344
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That's would not be surprising, as trains often don't connect to each other
Not true. There are 2 subway lines with direct access to Milano Centrale, 2 with direct access to Roma Termini, the tramway of Firenze has a station integrated with Firenze S.M.N. etc. Commuter rail is accessible in Milano via subway + underground walkway to Porta Garibaldi. Napoli and Bologna also have connections with their main HSR stations.

What more would one wish for? A Frecciarossa with through cars Roma Termini - Sondrio ?
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Old June 8th, 2011, 11:46 PM   #1345
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What more would one wish for? A Frecciarossa with through cars Roma Termini - Sondrio ?
An example for Sundays:

Cuneo 5.00-Torino Porta Nuova 6.25 (regional)
Cuneo 7.10-Torino Porta Nuova 8.30 (regional)

Torino Porta Nuova 8.25-Milano Porta Garibaldi 9.19-Roma 12.55 (high speed)
Torino Porta Nuova 8.25-Piacenza-Bologna-Ancona (intercity)
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Old June 9th, 2011, 12:44 AM   #1346
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
An example for Sundays:

Cuneo 5.00-Torino Porta Nuova 6.25 (regional)
Cuneo 7.10-Torino Porta Nuova 8.30 (regional)

Torino Porta Nuova 8.25-Milano Porta Garibaldi 9.19-Roma 12.55 (high speed)
Torino Porta Nuova 8.25-Piacenza-Bologna-Ancona (intercity)
So what? A minor Piemontese line arrives 2h before departure or the Frecciarossa... Should every minor line coming to Torino from the mountains of Piemonte to be timed with national HSR, like there were a huge number of people travelling from Cuneo or other villages to Roma or to Ancona?
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Old June 9th, 2011, 10:54 AM   #1347
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This reply clearly shows that you are not an economist as you pretend to be, but just one of many ideologists.

Any real competent manager would quickly realise that, as all these trains have to run anyway, scheduling them in a logic way would lead to an increase in ridership with a low expense. There are dozen of similar examples in Italy, where a lot of possible passengers (and revenue) are lost without any significant saving of money just because of incompetence.
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Old June 9th, 2011, 11:22 AM   #1348
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So what? A minor Piemontese line arrives 2h before departure or the Frecciarossa... Should every minor line coming to Torino from the mountains of Piemonte to be timed with national HSR, like there were a huge number of people travelling from Cuneo or other villages to Roma or to Ancona?
Unbelieveable that someone like you has a PhD (or maybe still under development?) Over 6500 posts and most of them (at least in the Railways and Urban Transport Sections) are bullshit.

But okay, your old signature "highways for progress" says everything.
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Old June 9th, 2011, 04:21 PM   #1349
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Calm down people. Here is my reasoning:

- we'll see more and more private competitors, like Nuovo Transporto Viaggiatori

- these new competitors are now setting up a new network, but operating in only a few routes, which the can easily skim for the money

- because of that, established competitors in the European market will have to either build their own competitiveness making their whole service network spotless, modern (no 1970s rolling stock...) or to care less about minor routes and focus on where the "beef and milk" is, the mains routes, so they don't lag behind new competitors.



We cannot evaluate the efficiency (or lack thereof) of one system based merely on the fact trains from a (relatively) small Italian city don't reach a connection hub in time for passengers to catch a high-speed service. Maybe there are no platforms available. Maybe there are problems with junctions and interference with other services. Maybe that train departure is matched to the arrival of a train from Ventemiglia... The whole Torino node is being reconstructed and improved in progressive phases.

In the context of international rail travelling in Europe, these issues are relevant. Some people seem to feed on hope that we'll see the major players like DB, SBB, Trenilatia, Renfe, SNCF gathering together to divide the market and operate in collusion with each other, like the national European airlines did up to the late 1980s. Some people would throw away any free market principle for the sake for having "integrated services" like it were the most important thing in the World. But that is not going to happen, hopefully.
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Old June 9th, 2011, 10:34 PM   #1350
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Some people seem to feed on hope that we'll see the major players like DB, SBB, Trenilatia, Renfe, SNCF gathering together to divide the market and operate in collusion with each other, like the national European airlines did up to the late 1980s. Some people would throw away any free market principle for the sake for having "integrated services" like it were the most important thing in the World. But that is not going to happen, hopefully.
That would be prohibited by Article 101 of the Treaty of the Functioning of the European Union.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 01:05 AM   #1351
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The problem of transferring in Paris (or London, for that matter) is not about ticketing, is about comfort. Eurostar, TGV, Thalys all make a case for their superior level of comfort, and like to brand themselves as competitors for airplanes, but more reliable, with bigger seats and so. Then, you have to add a commuter journey to change trains in Paris or London in routes like Orleans-London or Paris-Birmingham.
I'm not that familiar with the situation in Paris, but in London it is actually not that bad.

The way Britain's geography is means that the major cities and vast majority of the UK's population outside London are north of it. There are only 2 major cities west (Cardiff and Bristol) and a few mid-size towns south or east, which i doubt the overwhelming majority of people want to visit alone. As a result, transfer from Eurostar, even today, is not that bad.

The Kings Cross St/ Pancras hub at which Eurostar trains arrives is also the terminus for trains to Scotland (incl. Glasgow and E'burgh), Newcastle, Leeds, Sheffield, Nottingham and others. It's a few mins walk from platform-to-platform.

A few hundred metres west of KXSP is Euston, home to trains going to B'ham, Manchester, Liverpool and other major destinations. It will also be home to HS1 whenever that comes. It is just one stop on the tube, but in fact you can walk there in a few minutes, which is actually what you'll see business people doing quite a bit. The streets aren't busy and quite wide.

Even though building a short tunnel between Euston and KXSP (so creating a kind of 'W' junction instead of 'Y' one) would be ideal, it is unlikely to happen, straight away at least, because of the cost and the fact the stations are so close. There has been talk of building a short airport-style transfer unit (elevated or underground), travelator (it's that close) or just establishing a proper surface level link away from the main road.

Either way, i don't think the change is that big a problem on the London side. It just needs improving (personally, I think Euston-KXSP should be treated as one train hub, with the three stations as terminals, like at airports)
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Old June 10th, 2011, 02:18 AM   #1352
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Are there any updates regarding the ICE running to London?
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Old June 10th, 2011, 12:33 PM   #1353
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We cannot evaluate the efficiency (or lack thereof) of one system based merely on the fact trains from a (relatively) small Italian city don't reach a connection hub in time for passengers to catch a high-speed service.
Well, the example I gave was of trains from said small Italian city that do reach a connuction hub in time for passengers to catch a high-speed service, where the operating company however for some weird reason refuses to sell tickets to them, thus forgoing an option of making more money by selling a better product.
I call that stupid and incompetent.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 12:36 PM   #1354
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So what? A minor Piemontese line arrives 2h before departure or the Frecciarossa... Should every minor line coming to Torino from the mountains of Piemonte to be timed with national HSR, like there were a huge number of people travelling from Cuneo or other villages to Roma or to Ancona?
In any network with a proper hierarchy the minor lines do indeed coordinate with the major lines.
If for example at Torino the HSR leaves every two hour, it is logical to schedule the regional trains so that they optimally connect, to use them as feeders, in order to make them earn more money.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 12:41 PM   #1355
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I might be wrong, but I'd bet that on routes like Eurostar Paris-London, or Köln-Paris, or Barcelona-Madrid, the share of passengers on the trains that also own a car and don't use transit on a daily basis is far higher than in your average Intercity trip, in the same pattern by which many of airplane passengers don't use PT to get to the airport, but taxis, car transfers, spouse/relative picking you up etc.
You know, on most trains the people you see on them do have cars...

However, most people arriving in Paris on a HST do continue by metro or RER. And very few people have a spouse at each end to pick them up...

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Some airports like Frankfurt-am-Main or Schiphol, despite having high-speed train stations well integrated with its terminal facilities, still have a large share of passengers arriving by road in private/rented cars.
Actually there are quite a few airports where more passengers arrive by PT than by car. Schiphol is one of them. Zürich is another. In Switzerland it is quite common for people who otherwhise rarerly use trains to take the train to the airport when flying. In my case I would not even dream of going by car, since if something happens en route and I miss my flight my travel insurance will not reimburse the costs I will incur as a consequence.

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In Italy that is certainly the case. Many passengers using the "Freccia" will not venture on local commuter trains, Milano or Roma metro, or local buses, but take the trains substituting for the flight, and for the flight only.
that is because services aren't well integrated, and as a result Trenitalia makes less money than they would otherwise.
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Old June 10th, 2011, 10:56 PM   #1356
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It seems the only way sleepers could work would be to pack in folks into drawers lined with beds, like I hear the Japanese've been known to do in (tiny?) hotels, no?
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Old June 22nd, 2011, 05:48 PM   #1357
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Big difficulties to found money for the exploratory tunnel of Lyon-Turin HSR :

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Lyon - Turin : maintenant ou jamais ?

20/06/2011



Encore une fois, la LGV Lyon - Turin joue avec le feu. Malgré les menaces de l’Europe, le chantier de la galerie de reconnaissance de la Maddalena (7,5 km, 143 millions d’euros) n’avait toujours pas commencé à l’heure de notre bouclage. Début juin, Siim Kallas, le commissaire européen en charge des transports, a pourtant fait savoir qu’il donnait jusqu’à la fin du mois à la France et l’Italie pour honorer leurs engagements pris en mars. S’ils ne veulent pas perdre 9 millions d’euros de financements européens, les deux pays doivent signer l’avenant au traité fondateur de la partie transfrontalière, approuver le projet préliminaire de la portion italienne de la partie transfrontalière et lancer les premiers travaux dans la Botte, ceux de la galerie de reconnaissance de la Maddalena. Si ces engagements ne sont pas respectés, des fonds seront supprimés « et peut-être tout le projet », s’est alarmé le quotidien turinois La Stampa. Depuis plusieurs semaines, les manifestations d’opposants au projet se sont multipliées sur le site de la Maddalena. Cette mobilisation inquiète, alors qu’en 2005 des manifestations avaient conduit à l’annulation du chantier et à l’élaboration d’un nouveau tracé. A ce problème, s’ajoute le fait que – selon la presse italienne – la Botte réclame désormais une répartition des coûts 50-50 pour la partie transfrontalière (pour l’instant, elle devait être financée à 30 % par l’UE, le reste étant divisé ainsi : 63 % Italie, 37 % France). La signature de l’avenant au traité pourrait donc être retardée par des tractations.
http://www.ville-rail-transports.com...nant-ou-jamais
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Old June 23rd, 2011, 03:15 PM   #1358
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In the context of international rail travelling in Europe, these issues are relevant. Some people seem to feed on hope that we'll see the major players like DB, SBB, Trenilatia, Renfe, SNCF gathering together to divide the market and operate in collusion with each other, like the national European airlines did up to the late 1980s. Some people would throw away any free market principle for the sake for having "integrated services" like it were the most important thing in the World. But that is not going to happen, hopefully.
SBB is not and won't be a major European player, thanks to the Swiss policy of deliberately weakening SBB in favor of regional companies.
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Old June 24th, 2011, 11:33 AM   #1359
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I don't think that's a bad thing.
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Old June 26th, 2011, 05:07 PM   #1360
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BTW, RZD seems to be enthusiastic about launching Moscow-Minsk-Warsaw-Berlin night train. It already has one conventional, but it takes 24 hours because of a) need of bogie replacement at Brest b) low speed limitations trough Belarus, which is crappy.
The train speed through Belarus is already quite OK, usually 140 km/h. Tracks are in a quite cood condition there.

Time is lost during stops at the stations.
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