daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old February 1st, 2007, 06:13 AM   #121
hkskyline
Hong Kong
 
hkskyline's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 86,962
Likes (Received): 18239

I'll keep updating this thread. Perhaps I can get some suggestions as to an area of focus, such as HSR or conventional rail?
__________________
Hong Kong Photo Gallery - Click Here for the Hong Kong Galleries

World Photo Gallery - | St. Petersburg, Russia | Pyongyang | Tokyo | Istanbul | Dubai | Shanghai | Mumbai | Bangkok | Sydney

New York, London, Prague, Iceland, Rocky Mountains, Angkor Wat, Sri Lanka, Poland, Myanmar, and much more!
hkskyline no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old February 2nd, 2007, 04:05 PM   #122
Rebasepoiss
Registered User
 
Rebasepoiss's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Tallinn
Posts: 5,821
Likes (Received): 1823

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkskyline View Post
Estonian passengers rose 28.0 pct to 247.0 mln from 193.0 mln...
These numbers are so wrong....There were probably about 5,5 million passengers on Estonian railways last year....Not 247
Rebasepoiss no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 2nd, 2007, 07:12 PM   #123
Yardmaster
Registered Melbourne
 
Yardmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,152
Likes (Received): 198

There's nothing at all wrong with the subject of this thread. And it doesn't need to be tightened.

Never-the-less, as my brother always says "You can't trust anything you've seen on the Internet". Not that he's ever had an Internet account.

Now, my question here is ... how much rail, road, or other traffic does the US, UK, EU or Australian (and yes, there are others!) ... passenger, and freight, generate ...

per capita.
Yardmaster no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 2nd, 2007, 09:11 PM   #124
Justme
Gotta lite?
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Manchester (Forecast: Rain)
Posts: 4,953
Likes (Received): 781

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardmaster View Post
If the population of Europe is 700 million (as recently stated elsewhere here), that's 500 trips per head per annum. Actually, given that this relates to the EU only (500 million?), the figure is somewhat higher.

These figures also imply about 600 tonnes of freight per capita per annum ... or 800 for a population of 500 million. And allegedly Europe sends much less freight by rail than the US!
Yes, it relates to the European Union, which is just a tad under 500million (about 493million for the 2007 estimate)

The 700million for Europe is for the continent (which is slightly bigger than Australia for a reference point). The population for Europe varies on different sources from around 700 to 780million most likely due to defining the cutoff point between European Russia and Asian Russia - this is not as clear cut (excuse the pun) as it may seem.
__________________
I'm doing my bit to save bandwidth by deleting my signature
Justme no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 3rd, 2007, 01:34 AM   #125
FallenGuard
Registered User
 
FallenGuard's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Luxembourg
Posts: 107
Likes (Received): 0

These Numbers seem to be off a bit?

Here are detailed Statistics for LU
FallenGuard no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 5th, 2007, 02:44 PM   #126
Yardmaster
Registered Melbourne
 
Yardmaster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 4,152
Likes (Received): 198

I'm all for solid quanitative data here, but I do do reality checks ... when people inadvertently add or drop the odd zero, well perhaps that accounts for Methusalah (and Atlantis).

Here's one I heard on National Radio here yesterday ... "rail freight is three times an energy efficient as road freight". Source unreferenced. Credible? Well, I could certainly believe it, but it would be nice to know what we were comparing. Prime Movers? lorries? the lot? And on the rail side, did they include those vast iron-ore trains in the Pilbara?
Yardmaster no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 7th, 2007, 10:34 AM   #127
Justme
Gotta lite?
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Manchester (Forecast: Rain)
Posts: 4,953
Likes (Received): 781

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yardmaster View Post
I'm all for solid quanitative data here, but I do do reality checks ... when people inadvertently add or drop the odd zero, well perhaps that accounts for Methusalah (and Atlantis).

Here's one I heard on National Radio here yesterday ... "rail freight is three times an energy efficient as road freight". Source unreferenced. Credible? Well, I could certainly believe it, but it would be nice to know what we were comparing. Prime Movers? lorries? the lot? And on the rail side, did they include those vast iron-ore trains in the Pilbara?
I agree with you, many of the statistics we see either on the web or media have deliberately been skewed to represent the figures of the author’s interests. It doesn’t mean they are “technically” wrong, but without the details of how the statistics were created it is not always telling the full story. Also, there are many instances where even highly acclaimed official sources simply use wrong figures or definitions, either by mistake or especially in international comparisons, differing methods of obtaining the figures. A simple example could be the number of restaurants in a city. Each city may define a restaurant differently. Some may only include full service establishments, others may include take away’s or even any food vender. Then some cities may only include their political boundary (city proper) others may include the whole urban area or even metro area.

Anyway, I read somewhere a statistic explaining the percentage of statistics that were incorrect. I remember searching for it on the net a while ago, and even then every page had a different statistic ;O)
__________________
I'm doing my bit to save bandwidth by deleting my signature
Justme no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 3rd, 2007, 11:30 PM   #128
groentje
New Brusseleir
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Brussels Capital Region
Posts: 2,067
Likes (Received): 3

Wat that since the privatisation? Or before? I recall some accidents in BR-times, also caused by badly maintained track infrastructure...
IMHO, the private companies just paid for the lack of investing even long before the privatisation.
groentje no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2007, 02:04 PM   #129
Slartibartfas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vedunia
Posts: 11,613
Likes (Received): 5972

Quote:
Originally Posted by groentje View Post
Wat that since the privatisation? Or before? I recall some accidents in BR-times, also caused by badly maintained track infrastructure...
IMHO, the private companies just paid for the lack of investing even long before the privatisation.
You can make up your own mind. But the British railinfrastructure might be the worst in whole Western Europe. Its extremely badly maintained, and the train service as such lacks personal and financial resources.

The Private companies did little to nothing to maintain the routes. And even while doing so little they went directly towards going bankrupt.

In fact without states support for the infrastructure (I doubt a states run company could have come more expensive), the whole British railinfrastructre would be bankrupt today.
Slartibartfas no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2007, 02:12 PM   #130
Minato ku
Moderator
 
Minato ku's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Paris, Montrouge
Posts: 16,759

The new HSR (Toulouse Bordeaux Paris) should be private.
It would open in 2016.
__________________
すみません !
J’aime Paris et je veux des tours !
Minato ku no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2007, 06:08 PM   #131
JoKo65
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,111
Likes (Received): 86

One of Germany's biggest private railway companies:

http://www.hgk.de/

There is an English version as well.
JoKo65 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2007, 06:41 PM   #132
sarflonlad
Registered User
 
sarflonlad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: London
Posts: 1,086
Likes (Received): 68

In the UK privatisation of the train companies alongside the state owned rail maintenance company has lead to some improvements. We can't expect things to change overnight but the pace of is lacklustre.

A better way to "privatise" however would have been for the state to set routes, service frequencies and ticket pricing then award private companies on operational performance. This may soon be happening on London commuter rail.
sarflonlad no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2007, 07:43 PM   #133
Vertigo
Fan van de Neudeflat
 
Vertigo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Utrecht
Posts: 2,487
Likes (Received): 130

Quote:
Well the privatisation of Britains railways has been a complete mess from day one.
I beg to differ. While some things have gone terribly wrong (for instance the privitazation of infrastructure as well as some individuals getting huge amounts of money from management buy-outs), I think the process as a whole was quite succesfull. There has been a huge increase in train passengers after decades of continuous decline!
Vertigo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2007, 09:55 PM   #134
Riise
Registered User
 
Riise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: South London & Sprawlgary
Posts: 104
Likes (Received): 12

In the UK, I know the State owns the rail maintenance company (a crown company) and the train companies are private but I haven't been able to figure out who owns the rail itself. Are the rails state owned and for hire, or free usage?
__________________
"A city can be friendly to people or it can be friendly to cars, but it cannot be both" | Enrique Penalosa
Riise no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 4th, 2007, 11:06 PM   #135
groentje
New Brusseleir
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Brussels Capital Region
Posts: 2,067
Likes (Received): 3

I believe the rail infrastructure is state owned, with "slots" the different rail companies can pay for. That's the system in most European countries (European legislation), so I wouldn't know why it would be different in the UK.
groentje no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 5th, 2007, 08:41 PM   #136
eusebius
BANNED
 
eusebius's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Trumpton-upon-Ravon
Posts: 7,710
Likes (Received): 12

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vertigo View Post
I beg to differ. While some things have gone terribly wrong (for instance the privitazation of infrastructure as well as some individuals getting huge amounts of money from management buy-outs), I think the process as a whole was quite succesfull. There has been a huge increase in train passengers after decades of continuous decline!
True, yet this partly due to London's renaissance and population growth.
eusebius no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2007, 12:23 AM   #137
Prestonian
Registered User
 
Prestonian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Posts: 937
Likes (Received): 62

Quote:
Originally Posted by groentje View Post
I believe the rail infrastructure is state owned, with "slots" the different rail companies can pay for. That's the system in most European countries (European legislation), so I wouldn't know why it would be different in the UK.
If only it were that simple!


The tracks are owned by 'Network Rail' which is a company in its own right, separate in theory to government, but it has no shares and recieves a large part of its money from the government, so you can in effect say it is a government company that owns the tracks. Railtrack is the company that it replaced and that was a wholly private company (and was a bit of a failure).

As the quote says in theory all the train operators are private companies who pay Network Rail a rent for use of a 'slot' (or path) on the railways. Except it doesn't quite work like that because slots are bundled together into franchises which operators in turn bid for, for example to run all inter-city services on the West Coast Mainline. The franchise periods normally last about 10 years so although there is no on-rail, 'direct', competition there is the threat of competition as they can lose a franchise after 10 years.

However! (yes it gets more complicated) wheras the operators used to be able to decide largely what services to run on their franchise (after a minimum requirement was met) the department for transport (ie the government) now also specifies their entire timetable. This has caused some major problems.

In addition, some routes make a profit, and when bidding for a franchise the potential operators offer the government a 'premium' for the right to run that franchise. Of course an operator that has to pay a premium invariably has to cut back in the quality of service but for GNER (an operator on the east coast mainline) the premium they offered was too high and they have since had to hand the franchise back because they could no longer afford it!

On the other side of this are loss making routes, like many commuter routes, that require a subsidy. Operators win a loss making franchise largely on the basis of who will run it for the smallest subsidy.

To complicate things a little more the operators do not own the trains they use. The trains are owned by the Rolling-Stock Operating Companies (ROSCOS) who are mostly subsidiaries of banks. Operators lease the trains from the ROSCOS but can influence the rolling stock that is bought by the ROSCOS (by providing the demand). This was to reduce the 'sunk costs' that would be faced by an operator making it easier for new entrants to enter as they didn't have to have a fleet of trains first they could rent them.

On top of all the franchises there are 'open access' operators who don't have a franchise but bid for spare paths to run extra services in competition with the franchise holder. In practice I think there is only one such licence granted.

So generally, it is way too complicated and the government, though saying it wants private involvement, interferes way too much with the private companies and greatly reduce their ability to innovate and cut costs like they are supposed to. The railways today are said to be under more day to day control of the central government than in the days of British rail.

===

I do, surprisingly, support privatisation, at least of the operations. The private operators are much better at publicising the railways (Virgin especially) and they innovate much more quickly than a rigid state monopoly would. They also, despite what i think many would tell you, try to offer a better level of customer serivce. Many of the operators problems are not of their own doing (short trains are often because the govt won't let them run longer ones or will not pay the extra cost in subsidy nor let them put up fares). I imagine things like internet ticketing, wireless internet and onboard shops with a range of things from food to books would have taken much longer to happen under British Rail. Problem today is that the government is interfering so much that they cannot do all these things anymore.

The separation of track and operations seems, though, to have been a mistake. What I think may happen in the future is the track will come under control partly of the main operator/franchisee of the route so that they will be accountable for any mistakes and face disruption to their business if they do a bad job.

There is also no strategic vision for the railways anymore. The private operators, through the franchise bidding system, are encouraged to be cheap and unambitious. They are merely hired labour to run the trains.

Overall, a mixed picture, some clear signs of the private sector doing things right, raising passenger numbers, improving rolling stock (witness the performance of the virgin pendolino in the recent crash) and taking on new routes. But also problems of responsibility and accountability being unclear and too complicated.
Prestonian no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2007, 05:36 AM   #138
DiggerD21
spaghetti polonaise
 
DiggerD21's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Hamburg, Wroclaw
Posts: 2,540
Likes (Received): 1356

The Deutsche Bahn AG (or its various sub-companies) closed some rail-lines and other companies often reopened them. Since then the punctuality, quality and ultimately the ridership of these lines rose, making them a success story.
DiggerD21 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2007, 01:16 PM   #139
Salif
Registered User
 
Salif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,811
Likes (Received): 337

European platform heights

Does anyone have a list of platform heights for different European countries?

I think the Belgian standard is 760mm and the French is just over 500mm (could be wrong).
Salif no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old May 10th, 2007, 06:05 PM   #140
Nefast
Reregistered User
 
Nefast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Zele (B) / Dalian (CN)
Posts: 139
Likes (Received): 6

I don't know whether the standard platform height in Belgium is exactly 760mm. But you're probably right. However, most (older) stations in Belgium do have a lower platform height. Some stations even have both low and higher platforms. The low platforms are actually too low to step comfortably in the train, especially for older people. The high platforms are excellent, they allow you to step into train easily without requiring that one has to lift himself up to get on.
Fortunately, when a Belgian station undergoes modernisation, the platform height is usually raised as well.
Nefast no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium