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Old March 22nd, 2012, 08:28 AM   #1381
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Mail and freight are completely different stories. There's enough of time-sensetive goods, which can make HSR-Mail feasible.

Also, if they managed to introduce overnight mail train, than they may try overnight passenger HSR (not sure if it be profitable, but technically it's possible!)
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Old March 22nd, 2012, 09:55 AM   #1382
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Overnight high-speed passenger trains are not feasible IMO. That would require an immense amount of space to provide sleepers for everyone. Then, it becomes faster just to fly if the distance is long enough (say 1500km) to warrant a 6h travel-time night train.
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Old March 22nd, 2012, 11:07 AM   #1383
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Overnight high-speed passenger trains are not feasible IMO. That would require an immense amount of space to provide sleepers for everyone. Then, it becomes faster just to fly if the distance is long enough (say 1500km) to warrant a 6h travel-time night train.
I think overnight medium speed passenger trains (200 kph) make sense though. And you can mix different classes of accomodation. People sleep in airline and bus seats, so there is still a market for couchettes. Sleepers will have about 30-40 people per car, couchettes will have sixty. So you can still have 400-500 passengers on a 400m train.

And flying will become more expensive in the future, as fuel prices rise.
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Old March 22nd, 2012, 11:09 AM   #1384
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Overnight high-speed passenger trains are not feasible IMO. That would require an immense amount of space to provide sleepers for everyone. Then, it becomes faster just to fly if the distance is long enough (say 1500km) to warrant a 6h travel-time night train.
Planes do not provide sleepers for everyone, either.
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Old March 22nd, 2012, 02:04 PM   #1385
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Pointless. It doesn't matter if it takes a parcel 2 or 5 hours from A to B.
Well obviously the experience of France shows that it does.
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Old March 22nd, 2012, 04:03 PM   #1386
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Planes do not provide sleepers for everyone, either.
A Helsinki-Lisboa flight doesn't take 7h...
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Old March 22nd, 2012, 04:57 PM   #1387
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A Helsinki-Lisboa flight doesn't take 7h...
But some people travel Helsinki - Lisboa by bus or car...
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Old March 22nd, 2012, 05:03 PM   #1388
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A Helsinki-Lisboa flight doesn't take 7h...
Well, but there are some 7h flights all over the world.
There is even an sleeper aircraft- http://www.etihadairways.com/sites/E...rlflatbed.aspx
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 04:26 AM   #1389
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I've flown between Amsterdam and Seattle 3 times, which is a 10 hour flight. Delta (formerly North West Airlines) does a fine job at the flight itself, there's even a power socket available, but there are no sleepers.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 08:42 AM   #1390
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I've flown between Amsterdam and Seattle 3 times, which is a 10 hour flight. Delta (formerly North West Airlines) does a fine job at the flight itself, there's even a power socket available, but there are no sleepers.
But that is a less-than-optimal situation, the only other option being a 3-week ocean liner via Panama Canal!!!

Why would people want to travel slower, overnight, in seats (a bad arrangement) if they can travel faster at daytime?
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 01:26 PM   #1391
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But some people travel Helsinki - Lisboa by bus or car...
Landtravel has it's limits in Western Europe.

Usually from Scandinavia the limit is probably northern Italy, southern France.

There are direct trains from Copenhagen to Basel. Those trains usually depart at 17 o clock, so travellers from Oslo/Stockholm have a good chance to connect to them without having to get up too early in the morning. If you board that nighttrain at 17 o clock, there's a good chance you will arrive in Milano the next day at noon without having to be too tired of train travel.

But...further than that is not comfortable without a night's stay at a hotel.
In Russia though, people are used to spend up to 2-3 nights on a train.

Helsinki-Lisbon by car is an expedition like journey involving several stays over night. Probably 500euro cost of petrol and about 100-200euro for the ferry (ferries) depending on the route.



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Why would people want to travel slower, overnight, in seats (a bad arrangement) if they can travel faster at daytime?
There must be an option for those who don't like flying (and it's not therapy)
Look what happend when that volcano had an eruption. All flying passengers rushed to the train stations some people even took a cab from Barcelona to Stockholm for 7000 euro.

Also the ocean liners still have a service Southhampton-New York ,cheapest ticket costs about 800 euro (one way) This world would be very voulnerable without those ships.

Last edited by NordikNerd; March 23rd, 2012 at 01:38 PM.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 01:34 PM   #1392
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That is less an ocean line service than a cruise. They take 7 nights, whereas fast ocean liners of the 1950s, before their demise, took only 3 nights.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 01:43 PM   #1393
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That is less an ocean line service than a cruise. They take 7 nights, whereas fast ocean liners of the 1950s, before their demise, took only 3 nights.
Probably an issue of costs? The shipping company probably wants the passengers to spend more of their money which they wouldn't have the same time to do if the atlantic crossing took only 3 days. Shame on them !

3 days would be an excellent journey to North America. 7 days would make me bored.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 02:23 PM   #1394
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There are direct trains from Copenhagen to Basel. Those trains usually depart at 17 o clock, so travellers from Oslo/Stockholm have a good chance to connect to them without having to get up too early in the morning. If you board that nighttrain at 17 o clock, there's a good chance you will arrive in Milano the next day at noon without having to be too tired of train travel.

But...further than that is not comfortable without a night's stay at a hotel.
In Russia though, people are used to spend up to 2-3 nights on a train.
Transsiberian is up to 9 nights (though the express trains cover the distance in 7 nights).

The interval 5...7 hours is inconvenient for a train. Waste of time for day train (plane is faster) and too short for good night´s sleep.

Evening plus night plus morning is perhaps the longest train which can compete with plane on time. Departs after last evening plane, arrives before first morning plane.

Beyond that, a train must compete against plane on comfort and price.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 02:52 PM   #1395
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But that is a less-than-optimal situation, the only other option being a 3-week ocean liner via Panama Canal!!!

Why would people want to travel slower, overnight, in seats (a bad arrangement) if they can travel faster at daytime?
The point is that there are people willing to travel slow, overnight in seats. Look at eurolines... So that means that there is a market for basic style accommodation on night trains.
So a night train doesn't have to be composed solely of deluxe sleepers.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 03:17 PM   #1396
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Transsiberian is up to 9 nights (though the express trains cover the distance in 7 nights).

The interval 5...7 hours is inconvenient for a train. Waste of time for day train (plane is faster) and too short for good night´s sleep.

Evening plus night plus morning is perhaps the longest train which can compete with plane on time. Departs after last evening plane, arrives before first morning plane.

Beyond that, a train must compete against plane on comfort and price.
There is a direct train Moscow-Nice. Probably the longest direct train in Europe. Personally I think that "Evening plus night plus morning" as you phrased it is the limit for decent train journeys.

After that you feel very tired, unattractive, exhausted, sweaty and just waiting to get a shower and some stable ground below your feet.

Other longdistance lines: Copenhagen-Basel, Paris-Madrid, Berlin-Moscow, Berlin-Paris, Amsterdam-Zurich.

I don't know which train covers the longest distance in the world,but as I wrote one of the longest trainrides originate from Moscow. As the Moscow-Beijing and Moscow-Vladiovostok lines

In America I think the longest trainride would be the Chicago-San Fransisco route. I don't think they have a coast to coast service ? maybe they used to have one ?
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 03:24 PM   #1397
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I don't know which train covers the longest distance in the world,but as I wrote one of the longest trainrides originate from Moscow. As the Moscow-Beijing and Moscow-Vladiovostok lines
Consider the candidates:
Moscow-Vladivostok
Moscow-Beijing via Harbin (via Ulan-Bator is shorter)
Moscow-Pyongyang
Vladivostok-somewhere in Ukraine (a direct train is said to exist).
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 03:36 PM   #1398
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Beyond that, a train must compete against plane on comfort and price.
Night trains that offer sleepers are significantly more expensive than flights.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 03:38 PM   #1399
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The point is that there are people willing to travel slow, overnight in seats. Look at eurolines... So that means that there is a market for basic style accommodation on night trains.
So a night train doesn't have to be composed solely of deluxe sleepers.
Well, if no public money is involved on it, then fine.

But when it comes to high-speed lines, I'm usually concerned about alterations on their current protocols, that favor night closures for maintenance instead of speed reduction or diversions stretched over longer periods.
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Old March 23rd, 2012, 03:39 PM   #1400
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Consider the candidates:
Moscow-Vladivostok
Moscow-Beijing via Harbin (via Ulan-Bator is shorter)
Moscow-Pyongyang
Vladivostok-somewhere in Ukraine (a direct train is said to exist).
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The point is that there are people willing to travel slow, overnight in seats. Look at eurolines... So that means that there is a market for basic style accommodation on night trains.
So a night train doesn't have to be composed solely of deluxe sleepers.

So there is definately a market for long ride trains.

For some reason mostly in Russia, China and the USA.

Travellers who choose these trains are those who have the time, they want to see other things than clouds, they don't like jetlag, severe turbulence or terrorists.

Many people fear airplanes, some have health issues and can't fly because of that.

Moscow-Pyonyang would be a dream voyage for me. Any travel agencies dealing with this route ?
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