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Old January 18th, 2013, 10:57 AM   #1481
China Hand
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
We did quite well without border controls for a long time in Europe. And most of continental Europe does well without border controls right now.
But even then, what's impossible about just checking passengers on the train?
And why should British border control care if a train that does Amsterdam London did a Frankfurt - Amsterdam service before that? Other than out of lunatic paranoia, that is. So yes, if they care about that they are loonies.
They are a sovereign nation and they can and should do as they please and ignore being told what to do by other nations on another continent.

Sovereignty, is the concept.
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Old January 18th, 2013, 08:30 PM   #1482
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Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
They are a sovereign nation and they can and should do as they please and ignore being told what to do by other nations on another continent.

Sovereignty, is the concept.
Sure. And in the late 19th century the nations of Europe were a lot more sovereign then they are now, and did a lot more as they pleased as they do now.
And they let people move across borders largely unchecked. You didn't need to carry passport or id papers in most of Europe then.

So yes, the're sovereign. They're also being stupid.
Are they entitled to stupidity? Yes.
Am I allowed to point out their silliness? Ditto...
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Old January 19th, 2013, 12:55 AM   #1483
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Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
They are a sovereign nation and they can and should do as they please and ignore being told what to do by other nations on another continent.

Sovereignty, is the concept.
Foreign continent?

Quote:
from wikipedia.com

Sure its the British Islands but obviously they are commonly considered to be part of Europe in geographic as well as political terms. London is 1 and a half hours away from Brussels - by train! Its not much longer to Paris and there are decent connections to Amsterdam, Frankfurt and even Zürich, all by train. By plane you'd reach any European city in no time anyway.

Britons might wish to leave the Union and to go towards splendid isolation in Europe, but they can't change geographic facts. They are part of Europe and they have to live with it, maybe they want a political divorce but Europe will never be a foreign continent.


And those people who still believe in the fairy tale of absolute sovereignty, should wake up and face reality, even if there were no EU at all it would not exist.
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Old January 19th, 2013, 12:54 PM   #1484
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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Foreign continent?

Sure its the British Islands but obviously they are commonly considered to be part of Europe in geographic as well as political terms.
People from The UK, routinely refer to Europe in these terms:

"I am going to Europe for my holiday."
"My brother got back from Europe and we..."
"Yeah, Europeans they..."

The mindset of those from the UK is that Europe is some other place than the UK. You cannot go someplace if you are already there. That's like saying I am going to China when I am sitting in Beijing.

Politically the UK has always been distinct from Europe and many wars have been fought to maintain this distinction.

The UK has the pound sterling, not the Euro. And so on.

Quote:
And those people who still believe in the fairy tale of absolute sovereignty, should wake up and face reality, even if there were no EU at all it would not exist.
People like you are why sovereignty exists. When you begin telling others what to do in their country, issues begin to occur as Europe is realizing. So someone like you works in Brussels, and then those who prefer sovereignty riot in Greece and Spain.
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Old January 19th, 2013, 12:59 PM   #1485
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
So yes, the're sovereign. They're also being stupid.
Are they entitled to stupidity? Yes.
Am I allowed to point out their silliness? Ditto...
Yes you are. As am I when I point out that you and Slartibartfas are Authoritarians who want to remove state sovereignty because you think you know better.
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Old January 19th, 2013, 01:31 PM   #1486
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Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
People from The UK, routinely refer to Europe in these terms:

"I am going to Europe for my holiday."
"My brother got back from Europe and we..."
"Yeah, Europeans they..."

The mindset of those from the UK is that Europe is some other place than the UK. You cannot go someplace if you are already there. That's like saying I am going to China when I am sitting in Beijing.

Politically the UK has always been distinct from Europe and many wars have been fought to maintain this distinction.

The UK has the pound sterling, not the Euro. And so on.
All of which changes nothing about the reality that the UK is part of Europe.

In London people also tend to say, that they just came back from "the City" when they arrive at their home which is located somewhere in London. That does not mean that their flat is not in London. Same is the case in Vienna btw. We are also driving "in die Stadt", even when we are already in it and just are on the way to the first district. Obviously your logic is flawed on this one.

Every European nation loves to uphold its supposed exceptionalism and there are indeed aspects unique to all nations, some of them have more of that some have less but all of them undeniably root solidly in common European traditions and cultural/political/scientific movements. That is of course also true for the UK as for other European countries. For goodness sake, the British ruling dynasty is German and you know why? Because only a century or two ago, European countries were ruled by pan-European elites where almost any ruler was in one way or another related to the other rulers.

Quote:
People like you are why sovereignty exists. When you begin telling others what to do in their country, issues begin to occur as Europe is realizing. So someone like you works in Brussels, and then those who prefer sovereignty riot in Greece and Spain.
Sovereignty in its absolute form, as you apparently believe in does NOT exist, with me or without me. Its a myth. No European country can do whatever it likes, none. All of them experience very real limitations to their sovereignty and they also would if Europe would be a harbour of proud totally (supposedly) independent fatherlands as you probably would like them to be. Endless sovereignty, even if it could exist, would not help Greece or Spain to get out of their severe economic malaise either. Only painful reforms will do so, and if they were not part of the EU, that would be no different.
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Last edited by Slartibartfas; January 19th, 2013 at 02:02 PM.
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Old January 19th, 2013, 03:59 PM   #1487
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Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
All of which changes nothing about the reality that the UK is part of Europe.
Incorrect. Britons and those in the UK, on the main, do not think of themselves as Europeans.

Quote:
all of them undeniably root solidly in common European traditions and cultural/political/scientific movements. That is of course also true for the UK as for other European countries.
Perhaps you and I read different history books. Mine do not have a chapter on the rise of UK Fascism and the subsequent attempted invasion of Europe. Maybe yours has this missing chapter.

Whether you wish to admit it or not, the UK has different values than Europe.

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Endless sovereignty, even if it could exist, would not help Greece or Spain to get out of their severe economic malaise either. Only painful reforms will do so, and if they were not part of the EU, that would be no different.
If Greece and Spain had not entered the EU and the monetary union their economies would not have experienced the gross distortions that now must be repaid. Without the promise of endless Euros from the North, they would not have gotten into such dire straits.
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Old January 19th, 2013, 04:04 PM   #1488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
People from The UK, routinely refer to Europe in these terms:

"I am going to Europe for my holiday."
"My brother got back from Europe and we..."
"Yeah, Europeans they..."

The mindset of those from the UK is that Europe is some other place than the UK. You cannot go someplace if you are already there. That's like saying I am going to China when I am sitting in Beijing.

Politically the UK has always been distinct from Europe and many wars have been fought to maintain this distinction.

The UK has the pound sterling, not the Euro. And so on.



People like you are why sovereignty exists. When you begin telling others what to do in their country, issues begin to occur as Europe is realizing. So someone like you works in Brussels, and then those who prefer sovereignty riot in Greece and Spain.
Exactly the same talk in Sweden and Scandinavia. Very few people refer to themselves and their country as european. Europe is the countries on the continent. Theres a gap inbetween Sweden and the continent both geographically and politically.

Europe and it's currency the euro is only a lifebuoy for poor countries in south and eastern europe, they gain in joining the EU & EMU, while the other ones who have managed their budget right have to pay for them.
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Old January 19th, 2013, 04:53 PM   #1489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Incorrect. Britons and those in the UK, on the main, do not think of themselves as Europeans.
Even if you were right and they'd think to be something entirely else than European (which I challenge), my above arguments would still stand. You can't deny geographic and cultural realities. The British nation belongs to the European civilization, denying that is ridiculous.

Quote:
Perhaps you and I read different history books. Mine do not have a chapter on the rise of UK Fascism and the subsequent attempted invasion of Europe. Maybe yours has this missing chapter.

Whether you wish to admit it or not, the UK has different values than Europe.
Not every movement was equally successful in every part of Europe (I never pretended that and you implicitly claiming otherwise is showing bad debating style). That is also the case within nation states btw. Protestantism hardly was equally successful all over Germany for example. The UK saw its own fascist movement, but like the Communist movement in Austria it never managed its break through. And even today, it has its mainstream far right populism similar to what many other European countries. UKIP and BNP use it and even the Tories are trying their luck with some moderate form of it, like other conservative European parties.

You should however have some more looks in some history books. Or do you seriously believe eg gothic architecture is a British national invention? Or what about Renaissance? The hell, even romanticism and nationalism have a larger European dimension. Cultural, religious and scientific elites have closely cooperated and interacted all across Europe since the Roman Empire.


Quote:
If Greece and Spain had not entered the EU and the monetary union their economies would not have experienced the gross distortions that now must be repaid. Without the promise of endless Euros from the North, they would not have gotten into such dire straits.
Without entering the EU... is pure speculation but if I were to speculate, than both countries would not have stayed democratic but fallen back into dictatorships, or Putin style autocracies at least. They had remained isolated peripheries and would be much poorer than even today after years of crises.

But his speculation is meaningless as it can't be proven one way or another. It is however a matter of fact that distortions can be as easily created without being member of the EU or the Euro. Continuous currency devaluation can also lead to a big bang when an artificially maintained inequilibrium can not be maintained any longer and everything implodes. Bubbles can form in any situation and when they burst it will be always disastrous. Or what about all these economic disasters when Europe was still the glorious home of (supposedly) independent fatherlands?
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Old January 19th, 2013, 04:58 PM   #1490
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Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
Exactly the same talk in Sweden and Scandinavia. Very few people refer to themselves and their country as european. Europe is the countries on the continent. Theres a gap inbetween Sweden and the continent both geographically and politically.

Europe and it's currency the euro is only a lifebuoy for poor countries in south and eastern europe, they gain in joining the EU & EMU, while the other ones who have managed their budget right have to pay for them.
Yeah, but are they denying being part of the European cultural and political sphere? I have yet to meet some in person who would do so. Sure there is a European core and a periphery and boh the UK and Scandinavia might be more of the latter than the former but that does not address my question.

You are just straight wrong about the EU however. Nordic countries also profit a lot from the single market, especially as their location is the European periphery. And it should be obvious that a common budget profits the poorer members more than the richer ones. Everything else would be madness only found in colonial empires.
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Old January 19th, 2013, 05:13 PM   #1491
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Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Whether you wish to admit it or not, the UK has different values than Europe.
Can you give us an example?
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Old January 19th, 2013, 07:26 PM   #1492
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I don't think you could find many Britons or Scandinavians in America, Asia, or Africa who would not consider themselves European. The differences across continents dwarf the ones within them (at least a homogenous one like Europe). Being European doesn't prevent you from bad-mouthing the French or the Germans, after all most Europeans do.
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Old January 19th, 2013, 11:41 PM   #1493
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Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
Exactly the same talk in Sweden and Scandinavia. Very few people refer to themselves and their country as european. Europe is the countries on the continent. Theres a gap inbetween Sweden and the continent both geographically and politically.

Europe and it's currency the euro is only a lifebuoy for poor countries in south and eastern europe, they gain in joining the EU & EMU, while the other ones who have managed their budget right have to pay for them.
Oh please. Germany and to a lesser extent France are the main beneficiaries of the currency union. Germany in particular wouldn't be doing as well as it is now without it.
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Old January 19th, 2013, 11:55 PM   #1494
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Originally Posted by China Hand View Post
Incorrect. Britons and those in the UK, on the main, do not think of themselves as Europeans.
Absolutely right. That's why we should never have left this country enter the
EU, which they did only to be able to sabotage it from inside. EU would be
much better off with UK out of it. The sooner they leave, happier I'm.

UK is just either the 53rd state of the US or the only unsinkable aircraft
carrier of the american navy.
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Old January 20th, 2013, 12:55 AM   #1495
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ENOUGH!!

This thread is about railways, not the DLM nor any Skybar!!
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Old January 20th, 2013, 09:15 AM   #1496
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Oh please. Germany and to a lesser extent France are the main beneficiaries of the currency union. Germany in particular wouldn't be doing as well as it is now without it.
Suppressed wages and negative real interest rates does well for whom exactly? Certainly not for the German people.
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Old January 20th, 2013, 11:09 AM   #1497
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ENOUGH!!

This thread is about railways, not the DLM nor any Skybar!!
You are right. Sorry. This discussion belongs elsewhere. Customs/migration control is an unfortunate aspect of international train travel, even parts of the EU, but this brawl is DLM material. Back to trains.
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Old January 20th, 2013, 07:18 PM   #1498
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ENOUGH!!
Sorry, your totally right. If anyone wants to add more to this off topic debate, there is plenty of space in the DLM for doing so.

I don't know if the "Railjet" fits to this thread. Its a system run by the Austrian railways (ÖBB) but connecting 4 countries with a network centered around Vienna, connecting to Munich, Zürich, Graz, Carinthia and Budapest. In 2 years or so it will be 5 countries with the new Prague destination (There will be Austrian as well as Czech run Railjets on that route). It is not really high speed but on large parts of the main axis it reaches speeds of up to 230 km per hour. For the rest, its more of an improvement of the offered quality of transportation.
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Old January 21st, 2013, 08:41 PM   #1499
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Ok, back to the topic!

Anyone know what is the longest regular passenger service in Europe? I know there is Basel-Moscow service, albeit only one carriage attached to Copenhagen train. Anything significantly longer than that?
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Old January 21st, 2013, 08:51 PM   #1500
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I doubt that there is anything longer then the Moscow - Nice service.
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