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Old January 27th, 2013, 03:40 PM   #1541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post

What seems more a waste of money is the new Haparanda line, with one train a day...
I might have read about this one actually... Can't really recall the name, just that in was a rarely used in Northern Sweden.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 04:29 PM   #1542
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Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
Are there any other mistakes I missed?
Yes, Poland is upgrading the Warsaw-Katowice line from 160km/h to 200km/h, which will achieve 200km/h on trains without tilt (Poland has no trains with tilt).

Also I think it should show 160km/h lines too, since although not HSR, it is a pretty decent speed to travel and Poland has many lines at 160km/h or being upgraded to 160km/h.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 04:30 PM   #1543
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
On another topic...

I was looking at this map for high speed rail in Wikipedia



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...urope_2011.svg

It's not a terrible map, but clearly not completely accurate. The inaccuracies I see straight away:

- Barcelona-Figueres is finished and in service (270-300 km/h category, right?)
- A Coruna-Oriense is finished and in service (270-300 km/h)
-there is no actual construction between Lion-Turin and Milan-Genoa
-is there something going on between Napoli and Bari? Never heard about...
-no construction on the southern route from Dijon
-no construction in Bulgaria
-is the line in Northern Sweden really 250 km/h?
-I believe the line from Moscow to Nizhny Novgorod is also 200 km/h
-No idea about the status of construction in Turkey

Are there any other mistakes I missed?
Here's another one, as of December 2012:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...2012-12_en.png

There are probably many mistakes, but I think it is more accurate than the other one. I deliberately chose not to include Turkey as it was hard to find information on which lines actually are under construction - most of the railways there are east of the Bosphorus anyway.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 07:09 PM   #1544
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Originally Posted by Galactic View Post
There are probably many mistakes, but I think it is more accurate than the other one. I deliberately chose not to include Turkey as it was hard to find information on which lines actually are under construction - most of the railways there are east of the Bosphorus anyway.
Now if I ever saw a deliberate bias, this seems it. All Turkish HSR lines, in fact all of Turkey, lie west of the indicated line to Nishniy Novgorod. So why make a big deal about the Bosporus? It is just a little strait the size of a river, a boat crosses in 5 min, it is not the Atlantic Ocean. Also it is not difficult to find information on HSR in Turkey. The English Wikipedia entry is mostly correct.
For the record, Ankara-Eskisehir with side branch to Konya is in operation, Eskisehir-Adapazari with side branch to Bursa and (Ankara-)Yerköy-Sivas are u/c, Ankara-Afyon tender has been awarded. Adapazari-Istanbul is presently being upgraded to 160 kmh. Turkish HSR is mostly designed for 250 kmh, but the Konya line will eventually operate at 300 kmh.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 07:20 PM   #1545
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Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Now if I ever saw a deliberate bias, this seems it. All Turkish HSR lines, in fact all of Turkey, lie west of the indicated line to Nishniy Novgorod. So why make a big deal about the Bosporus? It is just a little strait the size of a river, a boat crosses in 5 min, it is not the Atlantic Ocean.
Most of Africa lies west of Nizhniy Novgorod, too.

The Greeks defined Europe and Asia once upon a time. And they chose to put the start of land border on Don.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 08:20 PM   #1546
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Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Now if I ever saw a deliberate bias, this seems it. All Turkish HSR lines, in fact all of Turkey, lie west of the indicated line to Nishniy Novgorod. So why make a big deal about the Bosporus? It is just a little strait the size of a river, a boat crosses in 5 min, it is not the Atlantic Ocean. Also it is not difficult to find information on HSR in Turkey. The English Wikipedia entry is mostly correct.
For the record, Ankara-Eskisehir with side branch to Konya is in operation, Eskisehir-Adapazari with side branch to Bursa and (Ankara-)Yerköy-Sivas are u/c, Ankara-Afyon tender has been awarded. Adapazari-Istanbul is presently being upgraded to 160 kmh. Turkish HSR is mostly designed for 250 kmh, but the Konya line will eventually operate at 300 kmh.
If it was up to me I'd include all of Turkey in this map just to make it more useful, however if we look strictly geographically then Anatolia is in Asia and Nizhny Novgorod still in Europe.

Also aren't were there any lines east of Vienna capable of 200 km/h (other than Moscow - St Petersburg)? The ones in Poland and Bulgaria as I understand are not in service yet. What about Greece?

P.S. I wish someone would update the main map. I would, if I only knew how...
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Old January 27th, 2013, 09:21 PM   #1547
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Originally Posted by sekelsenmat View Post
Yes, Poland is upgrading the Warsaw-Katowice line from 160km/h to 200km/h, which will achieve 200km/h on trains without tilt (Poland has no trains with tilt).

Also I think it should show 160km/h lines too, since although not HSR, it is a pretty decent speed to travel and Poland has many lines at 160km/h or being upgraded to 160km/h.
The Warsaw-Katowice route is capable of speeds up to 250 km/h. The problem is the signalling system which is being installed and tested as we speak. First trains will run 200 km/h later this year.

The line which is being rebuild for 200 km/h is the one between Warsaw and Gdańsk.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 09:27 PM   #1548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sunfuns View Post
If it was up to me I'd include all of Turkey in this map just to make it more useful, however if we look strictly geographically then Anatolia is in Asia and Nizhny Novgorod still in Europe.

Also aren't were there any lines east of Vienna capable of 200 km/h (other than Moscow - St Petersburg)? The ones in Poland and Bulgaria as I understand are not in service yet. What about Greece?

P.S. I wish someone would update the main map. I would, if I only knew how...
St Petersburg - Helsinki is 220...200
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Old January 27th, 2013, 09:59 PM   #1549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Most of Africa lies west of Nizhniy Novgorod, too.

The Greeks defined Europe and Asia once upon a time. And they chose to put the start of land border on Don.
The Greeks were a sailing nation who used Europe and Asia as destinations of their boats on the Aegean, that is all. They never would have told anyone that something is not worth thinking about because it lies on the one or other side. If they had had any clear of today's Russia, they would not have told anyone that a continent started somewhere in an endless plain. And FYI, Nizhniy Novgorod lies east of the Don. And once again: from Vienna it is closer to the Turkish HSR grid than to the Russian one.

But enough with polemics. If the map above had ended at the Black Sea, we would not be having this argument. But as the map shows Turkey in its entirety, it implies that HSR would be shown if there was one. Not to show it gives a wrong impression.

As for the other questions: I think an HSR map should show lines according to their operating speed. If it just goes according to theoretical possibilities, we would have to show TGV Est as >500km. Therefore IF Bulgaria had tiliting HS train sets or IF Poland had installed its signals should not count until they actually do so. Greece operates the Thessaloniki-Athens line with conventional trains who feel rather fast when passing the renewed sections. However I could not swear that they actually reach 200 kmh.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 11:07 PM   #1550
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Now if I ever saw a deliberate bias, this seems it. All Turkish HSR lines, in fact all of Turkey, lie west of the indicated line to Nishniy Novgorod. So why make a big deal about the Bosporus? It is just a little strait the size of a river, a boat crosses in 5 min, it is not the Atlantic Ocean. Also it is not difficult to find information on HSR in Turkey. The English Wikipedia entry is mostly correct.
For the record, Ankara-Eskisehir with side branch to Konya is in operation, Eskisehir-Adapazari with side branch to Bursa and (Ankara-)Yerköy-Sivas are u/c, Ankara-Afyon tender has been awarded. Adapazari-Istanbul is presently being upgraded to 160 kmh. Turkish HSR is mostly designed for 250 kmh, but the Konya line will eventually operate at 300 kmh.
I did try to find information.

Ankara-Sincan: http://www.tcdd.gov.tr/tcdding/hizli...ojesi_ing.html claims that construction works are to be completed between 2009 and 2010. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Turkey mentions a future dedicated high-speed line but lists no completion date.

Sincan-Esenkent: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankara-...-speed_railway claims it was "built in 2008". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Turkey mentions an opening date of 2010. http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/id/25063589/ from March 2010 says that the line should be completed soon, but I found no follow-up article to confirm the opening.

Eskişehir-Inönü: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ankara-...-speed_railway claims this line was completed in 2010. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Turkey lists it as under construction.

With all this conflicting information, I didn't feel I could include Turkish railways on the map. Because of the geographical definition of Europe, I decided that leaving Turkey out wouldn't make the map incomplete; however, I do agree it would have made sense to include it.

On the subject of how to classify the lines, I used allowed operating speeds from network statements where available. Thus, although the Centralna Magistrala Kolejowa in Poland was built for speeds of 250 km/h, it is not on the map as the current operating speed is 160 km/h. (It will be increased to 200 km/h in the near future with ETCS signalling). Similarly, I believe some of the lines in Greece are designed for 200 km/h speeds, but the Greek network statement explicitly states the maximum allowed operating speed in the country as 160 km/h.

Last edited by Galactic; January 27th, 2013 at 11:13 PM.
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Old January 27th, 2013, 11:41 PM   #1551
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Old January 28th, 2013, 11:25 AM   #1552
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Dear Galactic, I take back what I wrote earlier and offer my apologies then. The article and map "High-speed rail in Turkey" seems recently updated and not too full of mistakes.
Your concrete questions: Ankara-Sincan still runs on the old tracks, a parallel dedicated track is still u/c. As of Sincan, the HSR line is in operation (Sincan-Esenkent-Hasanbey, just east of Eskisehir; plus side-branch Polatli-Konya). Eskisehir-Inönü is completed but not open. They want to inaugurate the track all the way to Istanbul in one big bang. Therefore this section is seeing test rides or will see them soon.
One can say that Eskisehir-Arifiye (near Adapazari), Bursa-Yenisehir (will be extended to Bilecik to meet the Eskisehir-Arifiye line), and Yerköy-Yozgat-Sivas are u/c (Ankara-Yerköy will be rebuilt/upgraded to HSR. All Turkish HSR is designed for 250 kmh operating speed. Istanbul-Arifiye is being upgraded to 160 kmh, therefore does not meet your definition. An official map of existing grid is under http://www.tcdd.gov.tr/upload/Files/...TR-M-S-001.jpg Should you revise your map at some point, there are many people in the Turkish infrastructure forum who can help if any more questions come up. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...326142&page=78
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Old January 28th, 2013, 03:36 PM   #1553
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Old January 28th, 2013, 04:41 PM   #1554
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
BTW that map was largely initiated on these forums, about 5 years ago, so we only have ourselves to blame for not keeping it up to date. Although I don't know who adapted it and put it on wikipedia.
According to the file history this SVG has been maintained fairly regularly, replacing an earlier PNG.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 05:00 PM   #1555
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What this thread does not need is a discussion on the definitions of "Europe". There have been plenty definitions since antiquity, inside and outside of SSC.

Whatever the definition, having all HSR lines within the cutoff of the map rectangle linked to Europe is definitely useful. That would include HSR in North Africa likethis one, were it to be constructed.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 08:51 PM   #1556
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Originally Posted by Galactic View Post

On the subject of how to classify the lines, I used allowed operating speeds from network statements where available. Thus, although the Centralna Magistrala Kolejowa in Poland was built for speeds of 250 km/h, it is not on the map as the current operating speed is 160 km/h. (It will be increased to 200 km/h in the near future with ETCS signalling). Similarly, I believe some of the lines in Greece are designed for 200 km/h speeds, but the Greek network statement explicitly states the maximum allowed operating speed in the country as 160 km/h.
That would surely be the most useful clasification as long as the relevant information about allowed operating speeds on various stretches could be found.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 09:12 PM   #1557
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Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Dear Galactic, I take back what I wrote earlier and offer my apologies then. The article and map "High-speed rail in Turkey" seems recently updated and not too full of mistakes.
Your concrete questions: Ankara-Sincan still runs on the old tracks, a parallel dedicated track is still u/c. As of Sincan, the HSR line is in operation (Sincan-Esenkent-Hasanbey, just east of Eskisehir; plus side-branch Polatli-Konya). Eskisehir-Inönü is completed but not open. They want to inaugurate the track all the way to Istanbul in one big bang. Therefore this section is seeing test rides or will see them soon.
One can say that Eskisehir-Arifiye (near Adapazari), Bursa-Yenisehir (will be extended to Bilecik to meet the Eskisehir-Arifiye line), and Yerköy-Yozgat-Sivas are u/c (Ankara-Yerköy will be rebuilt/upgraded to HSR. All Turkish HSR is designed for 250 kmh operating speed. Istanbul-Arifiye is being upgraded to 160 kmh, therefore does not meet your definition. An official map of existing grid is under http://www.tcdd.gov.tr/upload/Files/...TR-M-S-001.jpg Should you revise your map at some point, there are many people in the Turkish infrastructure forum who can help if any more questions come up. http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...326142&page=78
Thanks for your input and the link to that detailed official map. I updated my map accordingly.
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Old January 28th, 2013, 09:23 PM   #1558
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Thanks for your input and the link to that detailed official map. I updated my map accordingly.
This looks great now! Is this map on wikipedia (or some other website)? If so could you please provide a link to the article.

The only issues I still see here are that the entire line Barcelona-Perpignan is finished now so there shouldn't be any blue stretches there. Also apparently now the entire length of Madrid-Galicia line is under construction (we had a discussion about it recently in the Spanish thread)
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Old January 28th, 2013, 10:50 PM   #1559
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What are black lines?
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Old January 28th, 2013, 11:31 PM   #1560
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Conventional lines that operates as part of HS service, but with the speed less than 200.
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