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Old June 16th, 2013, 01:39 AM   #1681
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
It is okay not to like the experience of riding a particular mode of transportation, but that doesn't change facts:

- airplanes have much more double- or triple-fail safety systems than trains (and they must to)

- actually, cruising accidents are extremely rare in aviation. 90% of air travel deaths historically happened on take-off, landing, climbing or approach. High-altitude accidents are so rare in commercial aviation you can count them on a single page list.

- trains are subject to interference with ROW and foreing objects. Actually, I hope they can come up with a system whereas whole railways have infra-red sensors that sound alarms if there is an object on tracks.
Spain has object detectors in all the crucial points that is likely to happen in the HSLs and they have been activated couple of times if im not wrong
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Old June 16th, 2013, 01:40 AM   #1682
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Originally Posted by NordikNerd View Post
Green light for DB-trains to St Pancras this Friday. SNCF used to have monopoly on this branch.

Frankfurt-London in 5 hours, but not until 2016

There is a huge differentce between a Plane and a train, the trains stops in intermediate stations. Many of the internal transits will have a extremely competitive time, this line will be a huge success. The train will be pretty full, but not necessarily of people travelling from Frankfurt to London.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 01:56 AM   #1683
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I think there's no need to absolutize the advantages/disadvantages of train vs. plane travel. Both will be used and utilized to the full. One thing that WILL happen is that it will become cheaper for everyone due to competiotion which is good.

Train has the following advantages:

- much more space and legroom (regardless of the class). I haven't been on an ICE3 but I've been on a CRH380B which is identical to ICE3 in terms of major design elements. I could fit a LARGE suitcase in front of me and still have plenty of legroom in 2nd class despite being 190cm tall. Enough said;
- mobile phone reception and internet connectivity onboard (very important if you have to stay connected as more and more people do need these days);
- it is usually more convenient to get to railway stations than airports due to their central location and more transport links from various locations;
- less hassle with security checks;
- restaurant car (there surely will be one);
- all in all trains are MUCH more comfortable than planes.

Train, however, has the following disadvantages:
- it will take more time (albeit the overall loss will be somewhat marginal or at least not something that should be a deciding factor).

All in all I would say train travel in 5 hours from London to Frankfurt is more than just 'competitive'. I think we're talking of inevitably decreasing flight fares with BA and Lufthansa on this route. Precisely what happened in China upon launching CRH services between some major cities (such as Beijing-Shanghai) in the recent years.

The launch of this route is a very, VERY good news for everyone be it a tourist or a business traveller.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 02:58 AM   #1684
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sorry but 5 hours isn't a commercial advantage .
4 hours could but 5h not!
i don't see business travellers prefer to make 5 hours to join London.Because the market targeted is the business customers.

I bet this line will be a commercial disaster because plane will compete it better.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 03:21 AM   #1685
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Are you drunk or what?
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Old June 16th, 2013, 05:36 AM   #1686
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
sorry but 5 hours isn't a commercial advantage .
4 hours could but 5h not!
i don't see business travellers prefer to make 5 hours to join London.Because the market targeted is the business customers.

I bet this line will be a commercial disaster because plane will compete it better.
Then why the TGV Paris-Barcelona?

Not to talk about TGV services like Paris-Munich, Paris-Tarbes, Paris-Nice, Paris-Monaco-Menton-Ventimiglia or Paris-Milan, all of them beyond 5 hours.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 12:13 PM   #1687
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post

This, specifically, is not a valid argument. The rate of deaths for airplane travel in the developed World are much lower than those of any other mode of transportation.
Except for trains...
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Old June 16th, 2013, 12:20 PM   #1688
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Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
sorry but 5 hours isn't a commercial advantage .
4 hours could but 5h not!
i don't see business travellers prefer to make 5 hours to join London.Because the market targeted is the business customers.

I bet this line will be a commercial disaster because plane will compete it better.
How much are you willing to bet?
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Old June 16th, 2013, 12:36 PM   #1689
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Let's sum this up and not repeat the same arguments over and over.
- Airplanes and trains are both very safe modes of travel when compared to cars.
- Subjective comfort and safety feeling of the passengers cannot be universalized. People will have personal preferences, but this is overall a category where trains could have some advantage over planes.
- Time advantage: it is wrong to believe that nobody will take a train for more than 3 hours. A majority of riders will choose the train over the plane if there is a direct city center to center ride in less than 3 hours. It will still look fairly good with a 4 hours ride. With 5 hours, the train will loose dramatically, and for a 12 hour ride the vast majority will choose a 2 hour flight instead.
- The time factor is not absolute: the other question is prices: are there easy to find affordable prices for the connections? How many people will travel for business and how many for tourism on a route? Do ticketing and the schedule allow for flexibility?
- Another advantage of the train is the option of multi-stop without (unlike with flights) considerably lengthening travel time. If the train is well integrated into the schedules and fares of the countries it passes, as international TGV and ICE are, it does not matter if nobody travels Frankfurt-London on them. It is enough if people travel Frankfüurt-Brussels and Cologne-London on them.
- People do not like changing trains. While the vast majority of business travelers on the route London-Brussels take the train, hardly anyone goes from London to Cologne nowadays that way. The main problem is not the less than extra 2 hours, but the hassle of changing between non-integrated train systems.
- Unfortunately, UK border paranoia is the most serious danger to the success of Eurostar or DB services from London to places beyond present destinations. The UK has announced that it would not erect extra border checks at other foreign train stations, nor would it condescend to making their officials get up and do the ckecks on board (heaven forbid, one of them might have a heart attack from too much movement). Thus all passengers will have to disembark in Lille, go through inspection there, then reboard the train. This destroys the time advantage and the comfort advantage.
But we are living in a time of increased paranoia where the UK and Denmark (as in the racist profiling incident describe above) and many others want to turn this continent back into a collections of small states in paranoid fear of each other, so I am pessimistic as to the future of international rail. People at airports are so easy to control, the seemingly chaotic movements of people at train stations make governments afraid.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 01:46 PM   #1690
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+1
eurostar frankfurt/london is a commercial joke

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Then why the TGV Paris-Barcelona?

Not to talk about TGV services like Paris-Munich, Paris-Tarbes, Paris-Nice, Paris-Monaco-Menton-Ventimiglia or Paris-Milan, all of them beyond 5 hours.
how much you bet that People prefer 1h paris/barcelona by plane?
myself prefer to pay less and go fast like it's the case with this line by plane.

i repeat but 5h is too much when you pay less and go faster by plane.
I bet you that it will be a commercial fail this frankfurt/london eurostar
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Old June 16th, 2013, 03:56 PM   #1691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
+1
eurostar frankfurt/london is a commercial joke



how much you bet that People prefer 1h paris/barcelona by plane?
myself prefer to pay less and go fast like it's the case with this line by plane.

i repeat but 5h is too much when you pay less and go faster by plane.
I bet you that it will be a commercial fail this frankfurt/london eurostar
I'ts obviously not 'a commercial joke', since DB didn't decide to start this international connection for fun, they came up wih this because there is a big market there. Like said so many times already in this thread, you have to compare the total travel time. You cannot travel from Barcelona to Paris in one hour, you know that. And yes, taking the plane is still faster, but since taking the train is more convenient for most people, there is still a big enough market there to fill the trains.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 04:49 PM   #1692
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Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
World record is french not german
I don't know if you understand how much detestable is that "country vs country" attitude and how much it can ruin a valuable thread. Stop it.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 05:05 PM   #1693
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
All in all I would say train travel in 5 hours from London to Frankfurt is more than just 'competitive'.
No it isn't. You have to remember that the majority of travellers on this route are business travellers who happen to be time sensitive.

Let's see:

Train: 5 hours

Air travel:
Frankfurt city center -> Frankfurt airport: 15 minutes
Arrival at the airport before departure of flight: 45 minutes (definitely sufficient when you check in online and have no check-in luggage)
Flight time: 1h 15min
Time from landing at LHR until you can leave the airport: 30 minutes
Heathrow airport -> London city center: 45 minutes

= 3 hours 30 minutes

So not only is flying usually cheaper, but it is also faster.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 05:18 PM   #1694
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I can talk from my own perspective: I need to travel often to Echt in the Netherlands. There are direct flights from Kraków to Eindhoven, Dusseldorf, and Amsterdam, of which Eindhoven is the closest (50 kilometres) and the others are 100 and 175 kilometres away. So there are plenty of possibilities to get there.

Okay, provided I have no traffic jams on my way to the airport, I depart as late as possible, step on it on my way to Balice, don't bother with finding cheap parking, but put it right in the (expensive) garage, and public transportation upon arrival runs perfectly without any delays or such, it would take me the following (And let's take the sunday flight to ensure everything goes as smooth as humanly possible):

Departure from home (Nowy Targ): 11:45
Arrival Balice: 12:35
Get rid of car: 12:45
Pass through security: 13:15
Board flight: 13:45
Arrive Eindhoven: 15:45
Run out of airport with only carry-on: 15:55
Board bus to station: 16:05
Arrive station: 16:40
Buy tickets to train: 16:45
Run to and board train: 16:46
Arrive Echt: 17:46
Arrive where I need to be: 18:15

That is 6,5 hours in total, filled with speeding down Zakopianka, parking in an expensive garage on Balice, only taking 10 kg. carry-on to save time, nearly missing check-in, running out of the airport to catch a bus, running through a railway station to catch a train which I nearly miss, and arriving exhausted. I know because I've done it once like that before.

And the actual flight will only last 2 hours.

Now, provided I take my time, have a leisurely drive down Zakopianka where I abide to the speed limit, it'll take me 75 minutes to Balice instead of 50. Say, I don't want to pay XXX PLN for the parking, add another 30. Provided I wish to take luggage, add another 30-60. All together, doing it a pleasant way, it'll take me 8-9 hours flying into Eindhoven, and 9-10 into any other airport. And still, the flight will only take me 2 hours (Ryanair to EIN or Lufthansa to DUS, or 2:30, EuroLOT to AMS).

Now, I do what I usually do, I drive.

Leave Nowy Targ around 8:00, get to the A4 around 9:00, and usually I'll stop in Zgorzelec for fuel, a piss break, and to stretch my legs a bit, say 12:00 to 12:30. Then Leipzig (14:00), Kassel (16:00), Dortmund (17:30). Arrive in Echte somewhere around 19:00. That's 11 hours, where I drive leisurely (140-150 in PL, 150-160 in DE), stop a few times, listen to music, smoke a cigarette, maybe even stop somewhere for a quick and decent lunch. 11 hours of relaxation against 7 hours of stress or 9 hours of still too much bother.

Say there would be a quick train connection between Kraków and Dusseldorf (I know, science-fiction), which would only stop in Katowice, Gliwice, Wrocław, Dresden, Leipzig, Kassel, Dortmund and Essen along the way, and travelling with an average speed of 230 km/h, it would take five hours to get to Dusseldorf from Kraków, compared to around 1:45 by plane. But instead of going from Balice to almost Duisburg, it'll go centre to centre. Even along such a distance, travel time from city centre to city centre would be comparable to flying, without all the hassle. And it would pick up passengers along the way, and drop off passengers along the way. I for one, would rather take a leisurely 5-hour train ride over a 1:45 flight where not only you need to go to and from the airport, but deal with security, stand in lines constantly, not even being allowed to take a bottle of water onto the plane.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 07:05 PM   #1695
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cannot express it better. You are even mssing the point when most of the flights arrive with delay (even of 2-3 hours sometimes)
Madrid budapest takes 3 hours flight but total time of the journey can be around 7 hours (without delays)

Last edited by SAS 16; June 16th, 2013 at 07:11 PM.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 08:09 PM   #1696
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Proterra View Post
That's 11 hours, where I drive leisurely (140-150 in PL, 150-160 in DE), stop a few times, listen to music, smoke a cigarette, maybe even stop somewhere for a quick and decent lunch. 11 hours of relaxation against 7 hours of stress or 9 hours of still too much bother.
11 hours of driving? To each his own, but for me that would be horror. Anyway, for me that's not an option as I don't have a car (I prefer to be rich in stead...)
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Old June 16th, 2013, 08:10 PM   #1697
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
sorry but 5 hours isn't a commercial advantage .
4 hours could but 5h not!
i don't see business travellers prefer to make 5 hours to join London.Because the market targeted is the business customers.

I bet this line will be a commercial disaster because plane will compete it better.
That's ok if you live in London, but non in Kent ,and you have to go to Heathrow, or to Gatwick, or to Stanstead to catch the plane to Frankfurt.

Also not all "travellers" are businessmen.
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Old June 16th, 2013, 08:12 PM   #1698
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
+1
eurostar frankfurt/london is a commercial joke
Not if the Cologne, Liège and Frankfurt stops are included.
Not everybody will do Frankfurt-London by train, but many might do Cologne-London, Liège-London or of course Brussels-London.

Intermediate stops in long distance trains count very much indeed.

A train such as Frankfurt-London can be full every day, but quite possibly, only a small part of the passengers in it will do the whole Frankfurt to London trip.

Quote:
how much you bet that People prefer 1h paris/barcelona by plane?
myself prefer to pay less and go fast like it's the case with this line by plane.

i repeat but 5h is too much when you pay less and go faster by plane.
I bet you that it will be a commercial fail this frankfurt/london eurostar
I don´t deny it, but like I said before, intermediate stops DO count a lot in such services.

And then there´s also something you missed: the people who are afraid of traveling by plane (there´s more than you could imagine, and I am one of them).
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Old June 16th, 2013, 08:13 PM   #1699
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
No it isn't. You have to remember that the majority of travellers on this route are business travellers who happen to be time sensitive.

Let's see:

Train: 5 hours

Air travel:
Frankfurt city center -> Frankfurt airport: 15 minutes
Arrival at the airport before departure of flight: 45 minutes (definitely sufficient when you check in online and have no check-in luggage)
Flight time: 1h 15min
Time from landing at LHR until you can leave the airport: 30 minutes
Heathrow airport -> London city center: 45 minutes

= 3 hours 30 minutes

So not only is flying usually cheaper, but it is also faster.
45 minutes from the moment you step off of the train at Flughafen Frankfurt Fernbahnhof until you're taxiing down the taxiway? Maybe.

If you know your gate, run for it, and only carry a briefcase and you're lucky at the security checkpoint. But one family of six in front of you, just flying back home to some third-world country after visiting relatives in Germany not understanding the security rules, and you're done. Or someone pulls the emergency brake on your train for fun, and it stops at Niederrad for 10 minutes... Again, you're done.

Most business travelers will want to arrive at least one hour before departure at the airport, and will leave Hbf preferably around 90 minutes before departure. Because their boss (who's paying for their ticket) would normally not look kindly upon wasting a ticket due to cutting corners with time.

So, by the time your plane starts taxiing, if you would've taken the train, you would've been halfway between Cologne and Aachen. By the time your plane lands at LHR, the train would've been somewhere near Lille.

30 minutes clearing the airport, again, being hopeful. The British Isles aren't part of Schengen, and I've waited far more than that once in Edinburgh because a flight from the US had just landed and there were plenty of people in the EU line that didn't belong there. If you're unlucky, count 60 minutes until you're on the tube.

By that time, your train is probably already near Maidstone...

Most likely, you arrive roughly at the same time at your destination as you would've done while traveling by train. But instead of spending 50% of your time standing in one line or another, you can actually spend this time productive, getting work done...

And that is FRA-LHR... Don't even try arriving one hour before your flight at AMS, one of the other cities which will be served by this connection. Flying back home from FAR last March (FAR-MSP-AMS-WAW-KRK), I spent two hours going through security (they probably believe the TSA doesn't do their job) unpacking every single bit of electronics out of my carry-on and placing it in separate bins. Unfortunately the 25 people in front of me in that line had to do the same, so it took me about an hour by itself getting through the security between the non-Schengen airside and the Schengen airside...

Or maybe put it differently, do you really think Eurostar would've been so opposed to DB starting this service if it would've been not commercially viable?
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Old June 16th, 2013, 08:13 PM   #1700
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No it isn't. You have to remember that the majority of travellers on this route are business travellers who happen to be time sensitive.
I just travelled back to Switzerland from München, by train. The München - Zürich train is actually not a particularly fast one, but it was quite full, and about half the passengers boarding in München stayed on the train till at least st. Margarethen in Switzerland. There was a man sitting oposite me who was on a business trip. To Lugano. There are still people travelling by train, even long distance.

Quote:
Let's see:

Train: 5 hours

Air travel:
Frankfurt city center -> Frankfurt airport: 15 minutes
Arrival at the airport before departure of flight: 45 minutes (definitely sufficient when you check in online and have no check-in luggage)
Flight time: 1h 15min
Time from landing at LHR until you can leave the airport: 30 minutes
Heathrow airport -> London city center: 45 minutes

= 3 hours 30 minutes

So not only is flying usually cheaper, but it is also faster.
But the difference is not that big.

A few weeks ago I had to travel Bern - Southampton. I did it by train. It was about 100 CHF cheaper, and about 4 hours longer. So one way to look at it is that I made about 25 CHF/hour while playing computer games and reading...
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