daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old June 17th, 2013, 06:13 PM   #1721
Baron Hirsch
Kara Tren Solcusu
 
Baron Hirsch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Berlin/Istanbul
Posts: 1,337
Likes (Received): 475

It is not that easy. As I have often checked MEtropol prices Budapest or Vienna to Berlin, I was suprised to find that the price to Bratislava is actually not shown. K, why do you not believe fellow posters, before lecturing them?
Some tricks on booking international tickets are explained by seat61.com or the aforementioned discussion forums.
But a lot of things need trial and error. Where exactly to split tickets to get the best advantage of discounts, whether country x or country y will offer you the cheaper connection if you are traveling between them is a science to itself.
Baron Hirsch no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old June 17th, 2013, 07:15 PM   #1722
HigerBigger
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Posts: 449
Likes (Received): 9

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post

That is actually not true. Any person refused entry at st. Pancras will be transported back to France or Belgium. Not only that, he/she wil also be handed over to the authorities in those countries, meaning that the Eurostar is actually not a convenient route for illegal immigrants. The chance of being able to slip in to the country unnoticed via that route is currently virtually nil.
Currently passengers from trains from Brussels do pass through immigration at st. Pancras. There is no reason why this can't be done for other trains.
No, UK border control take place in Brussels and no additional checks at St. Pancras.

Just think if the high speed network is rolled out further it will mean that French border formalities will have to take place in Leeds, Birmingham and Manchester or all passengers will have to get of the train in Ebbsfleet to go through passport control.

The biggest problem that SNCF will have with DB is that the Eurostar trains will have competition from Lille - i previously had to go through passport control in Lille when traveling from Lyon to London - it took 5 hours and was still faster than flying.
HigerBigger no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 17th, 2013, 07:25 PM   #1723
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by HigerBigger View Post
No, UK border control take place in Brussels and no additional checks at St. Pancras.
Not correct. For trains that call at Lille or Calais there is an additional border check upon arrival at st. Pancras. The reason this is done is to close the "Lille Loophole". Passengers with Brussel - Lille tickets don't have to go through passport control in Brussel (as its intra-schengen) but of course such a passenger could just remain on the train in Lille...

Quote:
Just think if the high speed network is rolled out further it will mean that French border formalities will have to take place in Leeds, Birmingham and Manchester or all passengers will have to get of the train in Ebbsfleet to go through passport control.
Or the UK could join Schengen... (I know, but one can still dream for an outbreak of sanity...)
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 18th, 2013, 09:25 AM   #1724
MarcVD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Brussels
Posts: 1,070
Likes (Received): 192

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Not correct. For trains that call at Lille or Calais there is an additional border check upon arrival at st. Pancras. The reason this is done is to close the "Lille Loophole". Passengers with Brussel - Lille tickets don't have to go through passport control in Brussel (as its intra-schengen) but of course such a passenger could just remain on the train in Lille...
Last time I heard about that, tickets Brussels-Lille on Eurostar were not
sold anymore, for this very reason (a true shame if you ask me). Has this
changed recently ? It would be good news...
MarcVD no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 18th, 2013, 04:34 PM   #1725
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by MarcVD View Post
Last time I heard about that, tickets Brussels-Lille on Eurostar were not
sold anymore, for this very reason (a true shame if you ask me). Has this
changed recently ? It would be good news...
You're right. They aren't for sale anymore. But then, given that there are quite a few regular TGV with walk-up fares of 29,- euro I doubt Eurostar would still manage to sell a lot, or they would have to give equal deep discounts.

But at one time they did sell Brussel - Lille tickets, and the solution was then to have immigration checks done in st. Pancras. This could be reinstated for the DB trains. I can't imagine that DB would abandon the Frankfurt - Brussel market...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 19th, 2013, 10:19 AM   #1726
MarcVD
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Brussels
Posts: 1,070
Likes (Received): 192

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I can't imagine that DB would abandon the Frankfurt - Brussel market...
HSTs Frankfurt-London would not be profitable if traffic between intermediate
stations is not allowed. I suspect the same for Amsterdam-London too.
So both Eurostar and DB have to get that issue sorted out, otherwise the
new services will never start.
MarcVD no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 19th, 2013, 03:21 PM   #1727
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
It is not that easy. As I have often checked MEtropol prices Budapest or Vienna to Berlin, I was suprised to find that the price to Bratislava is actually not shown. K, why do you not believe fellow posters, before lecturing them?
You are right. I checked Budapest - Berlin, and now I am indeed seeing that Bratislava Berlin is not listed. But you can still ask for a price quote from DB via email.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2013, 02:26 PM   #1728
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
I don't even understand how germans won the bid for new trains whereas they don't meet security standards?!

alstom make the best secure trains in the world.
I remember the 'boggies system' which has saved lives when accident arrived.
german one isn't as good as the french system.

This DB eurostar is a non sense
The security standards that the Siemens trains didn't meet were soon to be changed. It was obvious that the safety regulations were flawed after Kent Fire Brigade concluded that, among other failings, they increase the risk of fire!

The Siemens trains are now cleared to run through the tunnel and there are no safety breaches.

Jacobs bogie's, as used by TGV, do provide some safety enhancement over orthodox bogies due to reduction in risk of the train cars separating. However in practice this has never been a significant factor involving accidents of high speed trains. Once a train comes off the track, whether the train splits apart is really a secondary factor - the main problem is that the train is likely to hit trackside structures!

I don't understand your claim about French vs German train safety - in the real world they are both so safe that it is like comparing winning the lottery vs winning another lottery.

"DB Eurostar" is a nonsense - they are two separate competing companies . Both companies have ordered Siemens high speed trains to operate through the tunnel, and these will satisfy all requirements necessary to make such a purchase sensible. I am completely at a loss to understand the cause of your claims.
__________________
"There is no problem so bad that you can't make it worse" - Chris Hadfield
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2013, 09:23 PM   #1729
Axelferis
Registered User
 
Axelferis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: A space between two worlds
Posts: 11,297
Likes (Received): 2254

i'm sorry but during 90's an ICE derailed and caused victims.even german medias said at this moment that the french TGV was superior on security because a derailment happened too in france and 0 dead people.
French TGV is superior with bogies system which unifies the train.
__________________
W.A.O blog
Axelferis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 23rd, 2013, 10:34 PM   #1730
Glodenox
Registered User
 
Glodenox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Zemst, BE
Posts: 1,794
Likes (Received): 655

The problem with the ICE that derailed that you are referring to (Eschede derailment) was due to the duoblock design of the wheels, if I recall correctly. Half the train was forced onto a switch due to a rim going off one of the wheels. That's hardly comparable with trains derailing on a straight track without passing by any switches. That said, it is true that in the event of a derailment, the TGV bogie system is safer.
I fully agree with makita09's statement of it being a comparison of the odds of winning between two lotteries. The chance for an accident is so low that it is hardly worth comparing. I'm a big fan of the bogie design of the TGV, but it's not like it should be made mandatory for safety.

Also, I've found these two pages on Wikipedia concerning accidents with TGV and ICE trains, both seem to have had their share of accidents:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV_acc...ious_incidents
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interci...ress#Accidents
__________________
Copyright remains mine for all images I post that are hosted at tomputtemans.com, unless captioned otherwise.
Glodenox no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2013, 01:58 AM   #1731
Slartibartfas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vedunia
Posts: 11,609
Likes (Received): 5972

And does it make much of a difference in a single track tunnel anyway? The carriages hardly have a lot of room to do anything other than slide straight along until they come to a halt. That is totally different from Eschede.
__________________
"Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it.”
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary, UK
Slartibartfas no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2013, 02:12 AM   #1732
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21253

The problem with the Eschede incident was aggravated mostly by having the road bridge deck collapse onto the rail tracks when its pillars were wiped by the derailed rail car.

If a section of a tunnel collapsed on the tracks, it would be catastrophic as well
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2013, 02:28 AM   #1733
Slartibartfas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vedunia
Posts: 11,609
Likes (Received): 5972

Is such a collapse realistic even in a total derailment of the worst sort? I would expect that a tunnel should be capable to withstand the shear forces easily, without collapsing. I would also expect that it makes little difference in this regard if the train is stiff or not so stiff between carriages.
__________________
"Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it.”
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary, UK
Slartibartfas no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2013, 07:53 AM   #1734
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,539
Likes (Received): 21253

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Is such a collapse realistic even in a total derailment of the worst sort? I would expect that a tunnel should be capable to withstand the shear forces easily, without collapsing. I would also expect that it makes little difference in this regard if the train is stiff or not so stiff between carriages.
I'm just hypothesizing about some tunnel ceiling that collapses for other reason (earthquake, water leak, geological instability). Tunnel walls already withstand much more forces on their normal configuration.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2013, 08:09 AM   #1735
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
i'm sorry but during 90's an ICE derailed and caused victims.even german medias said at this moment that the french TGV was superior on security because a derailment happened too in france and 0 dead people.
French TGV is superior with bogies system which unifies the train.
Basically what you are saying that in the extremely unlikely event of a high speed derailment a TGV could fare better.

However, railway accidents are such extreme rare events that how a train performs in them has not much effect on the safety of the railway system as a whole.

The ICE is safe enough. And far more comfortable than the TGV...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2013, 08:11 AM   #1736
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Is such a collapse realistic even in a total derailment of the worst sort? I would expect that a tunnel should be capable to withstand the shear forces easily, without collapsing. I would also expect that it makes little difference in this regard if the train is stiff or not so stiff between carriages.
The biggest risk is not derailment. The biggest concern in tunnels like that is fire.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2013, 09:34 AM   #1737
stingstingsting
railover
 
stingstingsting's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Posts: 199
Likes (Received): 29

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
i'm sorry but during 90's an ICE derailed and caused victims.even german medias said at this moment that the french TGV was superior on security because a derailment happened too in france and 0 dead people.
French TGV is superior with bogies system which unifies the train.
Channel Tunnel:
- Freight trains have been going through
- Eurotunnel Shuttles have been going through

As far as I know they don't use Jacobs BOgies. Also, maximum speed through the tunnel is 160km/h. I think these few points are important to consider.

Whilst I personally prefer Jacobs Bogies, I don't think other operators running different trains should be excluded merely on this basis.
stingstingsting no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2013, 12:55 PM   #1738
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
i'm sorry but during 90's an ICE derailed and caused victims.even german medias said at this moment that the french TGV was superior on security because a derailment happened too in france and 0 dead people.
French TGV is superior with bogies system which unifies the train.
It didn't derail - due to an amazing lapse of maintenance regime the german engineers forgot to use the ultrasonic testing kit on the wheels, didn't pick up on the fractures developing inside them, and eventually a tyre came off whilst the train was in service. The tyre, made of solid metal and weighing a fair fraction of a ton itself, unfurled into a bar, with one end in the ground and the other end in the cabin. This wasn't a derailment, this was more akin to poking a javelin into the spokes of a bicycle.

Unfortunately it is clear that despite not having much knowledge on the matter you are using the eschede disaster to spread your own agenda. People on here are too knowledgable for this to work my friend.
__________________
"There is no problem so bad that you can't make it worse" - Chris Hadfield

Silly_Walks, XAN_, SiMclaren liked this post
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 24th, 2013, 08:56 PM   #1739
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,158
Likes (Received): 274

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelferis View Post
i'm sorry but during 90's an ICE derailed and caused victims.even german medias said at this moment that the french TGV was superior on security because a derailment happened too in france and 0 dead people.
French TGV is superior with bogies system which unifies the train.
Non specialised media can say whatever they want. The lack of knowledge of most journalists never seizes to amaze me. Anyway Japanese Shinkansens have an even better safety record and use the same layout the ICE does.

The point is: in case of a head on collision or derailment you want to keep your train as straight as possible to reduce the chance that it hits something and folds up like a harmonica. This is a feature comes more or less built in with Jacobs bogies or Talgo style trains, but there are also several ways to do this with normal carriages. For instance by fitting dampers and comb like structures between the carriages.

And like several people before me already mentioned: no passenger train, not even the rolling 'concrete blocks' used in north America, is capable of handling the load of a collapsed viaduct. The unfortunate reality is that many potential design flaws are known but only rectified after a major incident. After every major accident the world gets a bit safer.

As for the ICE wheels: They actually were tested, but the ultrasonic testing kit only penetrates a few centimeters from the outside of the wheel. They expected that the wheels on the ICE would exhibit the same wear pattern as with other trains using that wheel setup. However in reality the forces were actually the greatest on the inside of the rim. No amount of testing using this method would have found those fatigue cracks in time.
__________________
Public transport: Mode of transport that takes to much time to take you from the place you're not currently located, to the place you didn't want to go to, at a time that doesn't really suit you.

Silly_Walks liked this post
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old June 26th, 2013, 10:36 PM   #1740
Axelferis
Registered User
 
Axelferis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: A space between two worlds
Posts: 11,297
Likes (Received): 2254

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The ICE is safe enough. And far more comfortable than the TGV...

you know the price you pay a ticket with ICE is perhaps the double of a TGV ticket
I know that ICE inside look like a plane(screens,seats etc...)
But for that price you would prefer to take your car in France

It's a choice: You want luxury, pay it!
And you can't apply this "bling bling" all over europe.
__________________
W.A.O blog
Axelferis no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:49 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium