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Old July 21st, 2007, 07:19 PM   #161
earthJoker
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well it should at least be kmph and not kph.
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Old July 21st, 2007, 09:53 PM   #162
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The other thing that grates about the map is the "Other high-speed lines" in the legend. To me, slower than 180km/h is not high-speed rail!
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Old July 21st, 2007, 10:21 PM   #163
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In Italy are planning a "high-capacity"(200/250 km/h) line from Naples to Bari.
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Old July 22nd, 2007, 12:33 AM   #164
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After 13 posts, the only clear thing is that the graph is completely wrong.

Last edited by Cicerón; July 22nd, 2007 at 01:53 AM.
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Old July 22nd, 2007, 01:39 AM   #165
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With plenty of optimism hopefully those blue lines in the UK will become red lines
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Old July 22nd, 2007, 01:55 AM   #166
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I was very dissapointed when I read the article, as it makes no mention of the future and large spanish high speed network
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Old July 22nd, 2007, 11:20 AM   #167
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here is the official "raiteam" map:

[IMG]http://i18.************/4tjdffq.jpg[/IMG]

and the official website:
http://www.railteam.com/
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Old July 22nd, 2007, 02:04 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booze View Post
I was very dissapointed when I read the article, as it makes no mention of the future and large spanish high speed network
For now, the RENFE didn't sign the Railteam agreement, the same for FS and CP: therefore the respective spanish, italian and portugese networks are not present on the map and in the article. Also, the present members only involved some of their tracks (sometimes even "improved classic tracks" but with international purpose)

The main purpose is to edit a single international (international is mandatory) ticket and booking engine regardless where the ticket has been delivered.
(a kind of "flashback" on former TEE network). A kind of code-sharing agreement like we know them from airlines.

Only the companies that have an agreement to share the codes offer the continuous ticket! The same here, and as soon as one more railway company joins Railteam, her "Railteam dedicated" network will be included in the agreement and the map will be updatad consequently!!!!!!

Europeans can reasonnabily expect RENFE, FS, CP and others to join Railteam.
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Old July 22nd, 2007, 02:24 PM   #169
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Will Italy and Spain join Railteam ?
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Old July 22nd, 2007, 02:29 PM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by an-148 View Post
For now, the RENFE didn't sign the Railteam agreement, the same for FS and CP: therefore the respective spanish, italian and portugese networks are not present on the map and in the article. Also, the present members only involved some of their tracks (sometimes even "improved classic tracks" but with international purpose)

The main purpose is to edit a single international (international is mandatory) ticket and booking engine regardless where the ticket has been delivered.
(a kind of "flashback" on former TEE network). A kind of code-sharing agreement like we know them from airlines.

Only the companies that have an agreement to share the codes offer the continuous ticket! The same here, and as soon as one more railway company joins Railteam, her "Railteam dedicated" network will be included in the agreement and the map will be updatad consequently!!!!!!

Europeans can reasonnabily expect RENFE, FS, CP and others to join Railteam.
I know, but RENFE doesn't need to sign any agreement until the high speed line arrives to France and Portugal. I guess by that time free competition will just make the same effect.

Regarding that map, the spanish network will be much larger than that.
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Old July 22nd, 2007, 03:04 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Booze View Post
I know, but RENFE doesn't need to sign any agreement until the high speed line arrives to France and Portugal. I guess by that time free competition will just make the same effect.

Regarding that map, the spanish network will be much larger than that.

ok, we all know, but my comments originated in the fact that YOU were disappointed not to see a mention about the spanish network: it was ONLY to explain why

in addition, RENFE joining Railteam, will not AUTOMATICALLY include all the tracks, but only the tracks that can resonnabily be considered by RENFE itself as potentially interesting for INTERNATIONAL traffic.

Last edited by an-148; July 22nd, 2007 at 03:30 PM.
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Old July 22nd, 2007, 03:25 PM   #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eomer View Post
Will Italy and Spain join Railteam ?
bonjour,

we can suppose or at least hope that other companies will join in the near future (I prefer to speak about companies than about countries in that matter, because Railteam is a company's alliance).

In my opinion, FS could sign as soon as they want to, also if there is a need to use older tracks between Lyon and Turin or on the Brenner route or the Swiss routes: the trains will join the Highspeedlines as soon as they can connect to them (simply like Geneva or Bern). Look at ÖBB: they signed the agreement with no highspeedline to offer for now, just with the expected ones; for now Railteam traffic has to be served on regular tracks. SBB/CFF and BLS are also far from having finished all their "mountain base tunnels" but they signed the agreement.

For Spain, I guess that RENFE will consider joining only when there will be a continuous track at 1.435 gauge linking their highspeed network to the French one: so I guess not before 2012!

Last edited by an-148; July 22nd, 2007 at 03:32 PM.
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Old July 22nd, 2007, 08:29 PM   #173
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I took the train from Milano to Roma that sped through Piacenza, Bologna and Firenze in May and thought that was a really nice ride. I just never realized it was a "high speed" train. It was going damn fast though.

The train stopped in Bologna and Firenze but the whole trip was less than 5 hours.
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Old July 22nd, 2007, 08:44 PM   #174
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
I took the train from Milano to Roma that sped through Piacenza, Bologna and Firenze in May and thought that was a really nice ride. I just never realized it was a "high speed" train. It was going damn fast though.

The train stopped in Bologna and Firenze but the whole trip was less than 5 hours.
yes, when those bullet-trains drive on their dedicated tracks one would never think they drive 300km/h. I used as well the Thalys from Ličge to Paris as the ICE3 from Ličge to Frankfurt: it's a real Pullman once they drive on the dedicated tracks
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Old July 22nd, 2007, 11:25 PM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by an-148 View Post
ok, we all know, but my comments originated in the fact that YOU were disappointed not to see a mention about the spanish network: it was ONLY to explain why

in addition, RENFE joining Railteam, will not AUTOMATICALLY include all the tracks, but only the tracks that can resonnabily be considered by RENFE itself as potentially interesting for INTERNATIONAL traffic.
I know the article is more about competition than explaining the network (damn, I read The Economist every week and they always have the very same approach regardless of what they talk about ^_^) but the map is simply wrong.

Still, I do think the real revolution in terms of network is happening right now in Spain, and for HS trains competition comes after massive investment. Given the fact that the Madrid - Barcelona route is the busiest air link of the world, and taking into account that those 2 cities will be linked (in months) by a line designed to allow constant operational speed of 350KM/h, im am a bit disappointed as it just didn't deserve a line for a not very informed journalist. Having wonderfull trains departing every 15 minutes ( much less in the near future) and connecting the cities in less than 2.5 hours is a direct thread to the air link with a similar capacity.

What I didn't really like about the article is that it almost considers train market itself, while nowadays we really have a mobility market instead. To me the real competition is trains vs planes, and that agreement is just a small step toward full liberalisation and network extension.

Last edited by Booze; July 22nd, 2007 at 11:31 PM.
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Old July 23rd, 2007, 01:08 AM   #176
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totally agree with you

and the track Madrid-Barcelona will be amazing (already now!)
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Old July 23rd, 2007, 10:15 AM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
I took the train from Milano to Roma that sped through Piacenza, Bologna and Firenze in May and thought that was a really nice ride. I just never realized it was a "high speed" train. It was going damn fast though.

The train stopped in Bologna and Firenze but the whole trip was less than 5 hours.
The high-speed line will open in 2009. Milan-Rome line is in fact divided into three parts:
- Milan-Bologna opened somewhere in the XIX century, but it is a straight line in a plain
- Bologna-Firenze opened in 1934 and permitted quite high speeds for the time (it includes two main tunnels of 18,5 and 7,1 km, or 11.5 and 4.4 miles), trains can reach 180 km/h-110 mph. The main 18,5 km tunnel included an underground station opened to public, but it has been closed in the '60s. It replaced an older and slower single track line opened in 1864 (that is still in use)
- Firenze-Roma opened in the '70s-'80s and is a real high-speed line, permitting 300 km/h-185 mph on some stretches (even if being electrified to 3 kV DC, trains are limited to 250 km/h)

A new Milan-Bologna-Firenze HSL is under construction:
http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...an-network.gif (dark blue dotted lines, electrified in 25 kV AC)
This line is 78 km in length of which 73 are in tunnels.
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Last edited by Coccodrillo; July 23rd, 2007 at 10:23 AM.
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Old July 23rd, 2007, 07:26 PM   #178
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The NEAT tunnels should be blue in the first map as they will support sppeds upto 250 km/h
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Old July 26th, 2007, 07:40 AM   #179
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The high-speed line will open in 2009. Milan-Rome line is in fact divided into three parts:
- Milan-Bologna opened somewhere in the XIX century, but it is a straight line in a plain
- Bologna-Firenze opened in 1934 and permitted quite high speeds for the time (it includes two main tunnels of 18,5 and 7,1 km, or 11.5 and 4.4 miles), trains can reach 180 km/h-110 mph. The main 18,5 km tunnel included an underground station opened to public, but it has been closed in the '60s. It replaced an older and slower single track line opened in 1864 (that is still in use)
- Firenze-Roma opened in the '70s-'80s and is a real high-speed line, permitting 300 km/h-185 mph on some stretches (even if being electrified to 3 kV DC, trains are limited to 250 km/h)

A new Milan-Bologna-Firenze HSL is under construction:
http://www.bueker.net/trainspotting/...an-network.gif (dark blue dotted lines, electrified in 25 kV AC)
This line is 78 km in length of which 73 are in tunnels.
Very, very interesting. I noticed we went through some loooooong tunnels between Bologna and Firenze. There also a few tunnels I remember between Firenze and Roma. Also along the route there were quite a few areas where new track was being constructed.

Thanks for the information. It's too bad that the new lines are mostly going to be tunnels. The Italian countryside was the most beautiful I've seen almost anywhere.

Last edited by FM 2258; July 26th, 2007 at 07:50 AM.
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Old July 26th, 2007, 11:54 AM   #180
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Between Firenze and Roma there are also some long tunnels: 11 km, 9,3 km, 7,4 km, 5,7 km, and some shorter.
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