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Old March 14th, 2007, 06:52 PM   #61
zorrro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hybrid 87 View Post
I think that running without cables is possible for any normal trolleybus ... but how long is depending on the model
Older models, no, but almost any trolleybus made today has a battery pack. It can carry a fully loaded trolleybus a very short distance (one city block maybe), if unloaded a little longer.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 12:06 AM   #62
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SF MUNI Trolley(buses) in 1980

Here is a movie with trolley's and trolleybuses in 1980


Last edited by brugghen; March 23rd, 2007 at 12:20 AM.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 01:16 AM   #63
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I am wondering if the timing of the purchase of Skoda trolleys has any political motivation? Not that I don't like Skoda trolleys, those are excellent buses which constitutes one of my favourite, but the timing of the purchase, does it have to do with Czech Republic joining the NATO, and Uncle Sam wants to cozy up with the Czechs by making a generous perchase?
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Old March 26th, 2007, 03:44 AM   #64
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I doubt it. Portland bought a bunch of Skoda trams a few years ago. Milwaukee bought a large quantity of articulated Ikarus buses from Hungary in the mid 80's during the cold war. I wish we still had them, they were nice buses. Then again, the Ikarus buses could have been bought specifically because Milwaukee is a heavily socialist city and wanted to send a message to Ronald Regan.
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Old March 26th, 2007, 10:08 AM   #65
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According to King county Metro Transit trolley bus fleet numbers:

100 of 2002 Gillig 40 ft trolley buses

59 of 1990-91 (converted in 04-2006)
Brenda 60 ft articulated trolley buses

46 of 1987 MAN articulated 60 ft trolley buses

Grand total in Seattle's trolley bus system is 205.

Now, I wonder who has the most trolley buses in the fleet in the United States. Probably San Francisco due to more demand, I guess.
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Old June 19th, 2007, 05:50 AM   #66
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San Francisco's Cable Cars & Historic Streetcars























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Old June 23rd, 2007, 11:34 PM   #67
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Cool pictures! Do they still use trams and/or cable cars as public transport to or is it just touristic?
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Old June 24th, 2007, 04:57 AM   #68
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These cable cars are more geared towards tourists as a single ticket is very expensive. The historic streetcars ply both tourist and local areas.
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Old November 29th, 2007, 11:45 AM   #69
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San Francisco Regional/Urban Rail - BART vs Caltrain


BART
Bay Area Rapid Transit or BART, is a regional heavy-rail system serving the East Bay, San Francisco, and Northern San Mateo County. BART provides an alternative to commuters in many cities in Alameda and Contra Costa County to driving to San Francisco and within the East Bay on congested freeways, including the Caldecott Tunnel and the San Francisco-Oakland Bay Bridge. Since the completion of the Transbay Tube in 1974, BART has always been a popular and rapid form of transportation between the East Bay and San Francisco.


Caltrain
Caltrain is a descendant of the San Francisco Peninsula's oldest intercity passenger rail system, which began in 1863 as the San Francisco and San Jose Railroad Co. The service provides a fast, convenient alternative to driving the heavily congested Bayshore Freeway, (Highway 101) between San Francisco, San Jose and south to Gilroy. This popular commuter rail service continues to attract new commuters and travelers with major upgrades completed between 1995 and 2004.

System Map


Equipment
BART Type A/B


BART Type C


Caltrain F40


Caltrain MP36


Interior
BART


Caltrain Local


Caltrain "Baby Bullet" Express


Evolution
BART - an urban subway, and Caltrain - a regional/commuter rail system - were initially designed to serve radically different markets. But they have evolved far beyond their original intentions, and the two systems will soon operate in a fashion similar each other in their respective geographical areas. Commuter rail Caltrain now serves an increasingly dense transit corridor and operates numerous local trains well outside the commute periods. Conversion from diesel to light weight electrical trains, and eventual full grade separation from vehicular traffic will soon transform the system into a high-tech metro in addition to its express commute service. On the other hand, urban subway BART continues to expand well beyond the urban and suburban regions of the eastern San Francisco bay area, and now provides regional and long distance commute service to distant communities in addition to its role as an urban people-mover.

Future Network

Last edited by busdriver; December 12th, 2007 at 09:10 AM. Reason: Added: Future Network Map
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Old November 29th, 2007, 11:49 PM   #70
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The biggest problem with BART, Caltrain, *AND* the SF MUNI is the fact that they all quit running too early to accommodate South Bay residents who want to go into SF, party, and head home at some point between midnight and 4am without risking a DUI. Of course, the Bay Area isn't unique in this regard... but just as a matter of sane public policy in the interest of keeping drunk people off the roads, they should all run until AT LEAST 2am on Saturday & Sunday morning, and public holidays (ie, 2am on holidays like Memorial Day, for everyone who went out on Sunday night because they don't have to work on Monday).

To fund it and keep headways reasonable (say, 15 minutes for BART, 30 minutes for Caltrain), they could charge double fares to passengers boarding after midnight (it's still a hell of a lot cheaper than a cab to Palo Alto).

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Old November 30th, 2007, 04:05 AM   #71
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I sometimes go to SF and I have never taken The BART. But I always take the Cal-Train since I stay at a relative's place in Santa Clara.
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Old November 30th, 2007, 04:54 AM   #72
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I've never rode the BART, but it looks like an awesome system, compared to most cities. It could be easier to rebrand Caltrain as BART, and make the system easier to understand for visitors. Also does anyone from SF know if they still print the BART and buses guide? I also have a Regional Transit Guide from 1991, do they still print these? Thanks.
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Old December 5th, 2007, 05:53 AM   #73
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Originally Posted by Tcmetro View Post
I've never rode the BART, but it looks like an awesome system, compared to most cities. It could be easier to rebrand Caltrain as BART, and make the system easier to understand for visitors.
I don't think a rebranding could work at all. The locals are already used to the current branding, the systems are too different, and the cost/payment structures are incongruent. Besides, BART and Caltrain are governed by different organisms.

I actually feel like both systems are becoming less alike. Caltrain is becoming more of a commuter-express train with less stops (Baby bullet trains), while BART has become more of a metro system in SF, Oakland, and Berkeley. BART is even contemplating building a new line through San Francisco, something that is supposed to be MUNI's job. The line would come from the East Bay in a second Transbay tube to the Transbay Terminal then up Van Ness before coming back south down Geary.

If anything, I could see them as being complementary and independent from each other. Caltrain is better suited for the suburban sprawl of peninsula and BART for high density areas. They only coexist together in San Mateo County, but perhaps in the future Caltrain will only run "baby bullet" trains (those that skip most stations) that connect San Jose and San Francisco. Possible BART extensions could take care of short distance trips between cities in the peninsula (from San Mateo to Redwood City or Palo Alto, etc).
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Old December 5th, 2007, 05:56 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcmetro View Post
Also does anyone from SF know if they still print the BART and buses guide? I also have a Regional Transit Guide from 1991, do they still print these? Thanks.
They still print the schedules (BART and Muni), although BART users seem to rely more on online schedules or the information provided at the stations.
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Old December 6th, 2007, 06:41 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tcmetro View Post
I've never rode the BART, but it looks like an awesome system, compared to most cities. It could be easier to rebrand Caltrain as BART, and make the system easier to understand for visitors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dewback View Post
I don't think a rebranding could work at all. The locals are already used to the current branding, the systems are too different, and the cost/payment structures are incongruent. Besides, BART and Caltrain are governed by different organisms.
Integration of the two systems would be a difficult challenge, as BART and Caltrain are very different administratively and operationally. But an integrated system would certainly benefit the region's transportation on the whole. However it is important to recognize the inherent advantages and disadvantages of each system as they stand today.

On an administrative level, BART generally has wider public exposure and stronger political support when compared to Caltrain. It has a strong funding base from direct county taxes, and clout on the state and federal levels. Caltrain's political lobby is comparatively weaker, and its funding less secure, as it is derived indirectly from county level transportation budgets, making it vulnerable to coffer raiding and budgetary shortfalls. Yet perhaps because of this lack of financial security, Caltrain has generally been perceived as more receptive to public opinion in comparison to BART.

Operationally, BART's trains run on a custom designed one-of-a-kind track (wider than standard for stability), which makes the system completely incompatible with everything else in the world. All BART equipment - from railcars to maintenance vehicles to track laying equipment- must be custom designed, making it extremely expensive to equip and expand the current system. With Caltrain, it's biggest operational limitation currently stems from its use of diesel powered trains. Poor performance and high maintenance requirements makes the current service comparatively costly and slow. The diesel locomotives in current use are ill-suited for the stop and go operations a local train has to endure. It has poor acceleration performance due to limited power and traction, and it cannot recover energy from braking as a modern electrically powered train can.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dewback View Post
I actually feel like both systems are becoming less alike. Caltrain is becoming more of a commuter-express train with less stops (Baby bullet trains), while BART has become more of a metro system in SF, Oakland, and Berkeley. BART is even contemplating building a new line through San Francisco, something that is supposed to be MUNI's job. The line would come from the East Bay in a second Transbay tube to the Transbay Terminal then up Van Ness before coming back south down Geary.
I believe BART's metro service in the city forms the core of its system and is well suited to the task. But at the same time BART is running lines with journey times of over 1 hr in to the city, and is continuing to expand further out into the low density suburbs - note the continuation of the Dublin line to Livermore and the E.BART extension to Antioch and Byron, which would put journey times well over the 1.5 hr mark. BART all-stops local metro service ethos is not suitable on long commutes over remote stretches such as this:

These outer lines should instead incorporate equipment with provisions familiar to a commuter operation, such as restrooms and other amenities suitable for long distance travel on board, and the addition of passing tracks for the operation of express trains (the new transbay tube should serve well for this purpose). Full time fare control would also be unnecessary and wasteful at these suburban stations (currently all BART stations are manned full time to prevent fare evaders), as they see little use outside of commute hours.

With Caltrain, its corridor through the peninsular and the south bay is continuing to increase in density and demand - note developments along Bayshore, Hayward park, Mt View, San Antonio, among others. Currently, service to many of these intermediate stations is limited, due to the high cost and poor performance of the current diesel equipment operating local runs. Electrification of the line is urgently needed. Once that occurs, greater local service coverage and frequency at lower operating cost should be realized.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dewback View Post
If anything, I could see them as being complementary and independent from each other. Caltrain is better suited for the suburban sprawl of peninsula and BART for high density areas. They only coexist together in San Mateo County, but perhaps in the future Caltrain will only run "baby bullet" trains (those that skip most stations) that connect San Jose and San Francisco. Possible BART extensions could take care of short distance trips between cities in the peninsula (from San Mateo to Redwood City or Palo Alto, etc).
With the planned electrification of the Caltrain line, it should be able to provide equal local, and superior express service, than an equivalent BART-based system. Perhaps we are disagreeing only on semantics, as I do agree that the current "Caltrain" system is better suited for the suburban sprawl, and the current "BART" system is better suited for high density areas. One could eventually re-brand all bay area commuter type service "Caltrain", and all local metro service "BART", regardless of the transportation corridor they service, or the type of equipment they operate.

Last edited by busdriver; December 6th, 2007 at 06:48 PM.
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Old December 7th, 2007, 03:40 AM   #76
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The thing about quite similar really isn't, especially since they serve totally different areas of the bay area. I only take BART because I go to Berkeley...

If I go to the South Bay I usually end up driving
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Old December 7th, 2007, 05:02 AM   #77
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When will the extension to San Jose open?

Does anyone ever see the BART ever creating a loop around the bay?

Does anyone ever see extensions to Marin County, or Vallejo County ever happening?
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Old December 7th, 2007, 05:46 AM   #78
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How would you guys rate MUNI's (LRT/tram) on street performance? From what I've seen on YouTube, it looks unnecessarily slow, and I'm wondering why.

EDIT: Talking more about their multicar LRT trains than their streetcars. Those seem to move fairly fast for the most part.
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Old December 7th, 2007, 08:48 AM   #79
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i have lived in cupertino, where i took the cal train, but rarely. driving makes more sense. i'll say it is the worst among the 3. and some stations, like 22nd st and bayshore, are rather scary.

then, i have lived in berkeley, where i took bart the most, it was a short ride and work extremely well. sometime faster than driving. i have stuck on the toll plaza for 45 min once. but i have to agree that they dont run late enough. there are many DUI after sf clubbing, and the bay bridge shut down ocassionally.

then, i have worked at sunset, where i took the muni, it is kinda slow, but it runs on the street too, so i think its fine. i like that it overlaps some of the bart station. making transfer pretty easy.

i am now at daly city, n i am back to bart.

i do hope that there are more transfer stations between bart and caltrain. like 4th and king, is not connected directly to the bart, but only muni. transferring thru so many different rails is $$$$ ... and bart should offer express trains in rush hour. the furthest i have lived from the bart is berkeley or daly city. i cant imagine how long for those coming from dublin or pittsburg.
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Old December 7th, 2007, 08:50 AM   #80
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if they electrify the Cal Train line then they would have to branch it to four tracks for the California High Speed Rail to SF

and the High Speed Rail Route will become part of the larger of the United States High Speed Railway network hopefully
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