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Old January 30th, 2016, 03:56 AM   #1221
MrAronymous
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The first design is futuristic. Current-day Americans don't want futuristic
Think of the extra costs, think of the maintenance, think of the [insert other excuse].
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Old January 30th, 2016, 05:42 AM   #1222
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Comparing to Paris, London, and Tokyo, that actually looks pretty modern and quite nice. It really shows a maturity in design that says that BART has truly come of age in a way that the last generation didn't with its '70s design chic.
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Old January 30th, 2016, 06:13 AM   #1223
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And I believe BART will still be able to be flexible on its varying train lengths wherein those can be stretched or shortened based on demand (e.g. shortest will be 4 cars, longest at 10 cars).
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Old January 30th, 2016, 06:24 AM   #1224
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Will the trains be articulated?
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Old January 30th, 2016, 06:29 AM   #1225
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That would be a really good question. The trains we have now aren't articulated, meaning we can have different car numbers joined together in one train, if not different driver cabs too (e.g. an A-car on one end, a C-car on the other).
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Old January 30th, 2016, 07:09 AM   #1226
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I actually like what's being built. The rendering isn't realistic- it doesn't show any doors or headlights. I think the design being built is definitely modern and light years ahead compared to what is currently in use. And of course the biggest plus of all: three sets of doors for faster boarding!
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Old January 30th, 2016, 07:36 AM   #1227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jchernin View Post
I actually like what's being built. The rendering isn't realistic- it doesn't show any doors or headlights. I think the design being built is definitely modern and light years ahead compared to what is currently in use. And of course the biggest plus of all: three sets of doors for faster boarding!
Yes it does. The headlights (and red tail lights for when it's going the opposite direction) are beside the window along the frame. You can see one beside the BART window sticker. And it also shows the doors, but they're flush with the body so you have to look closely. They must be plug doors rather than the sliding doors seen on the existing stock.
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Old January 30th, 2016, 07:54 AM   #1228
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Sliding doors are way more common on subway trains than plug doors, and it is a safer bet to use, especially that the top speed for BART is at 70mph (130kph).
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Old January 30th, 2016, 09:50 AM   #1229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
Comparing to Paris, London, and Tokyo, that actually looks pretty modern and quite nice. It really shows a maturity in design that says that BART has truly come of age in a way that the last generation didn't with its '70s design chic.
No, no, no.

NO!

First -- cities you mentioned are in process of replacing their cars to a way more modern that this mid 20th century carriage.

One of them is London's tube:



http://www.kitguru.net/wp-content/up...nderground.jpg

Even its outdated version is hell much modern than BART's car of the "future". F-U-T-U-R-E.

SF is technically getting what rest of the developed world is dumping.

Second -- we can go even further, take for instance Berlin, Madrid, Barcelona, Singapore, Hong Kong...

NOTE this -- we'll be stuck with this one for the next 40 years. Having in mind that is already awkward, imagine how will look compared to advanced world 4 decades from now.

Last edited by JimmyHD; January 30th, 2016 at 09:56 AM.
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Old January 30th, 2016, 10:28 AM   #1230
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Reminds me of when they were replacing the CTA cars a few years ago. The renders looking futuristic , but the finished product was dated and had features stripped out of it...
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Old January 30th, 2016, 03:05 PM   #1231
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....I think most riders couldn't care less how "futuristic" the outside looks, but are more concerned about the interior.

I had this very experience with WMATA's 7000-series cars: I always thought they were hideous, until one pulled up at a station, and I boarded. It's actually quite nice.
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Old January 30th, 2016, 08:29 PM   #1232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHD View Post
No, no, no.

NO!

First -- cities you mentioned are in process of replacing their cars to a way more modern that this mid 20th century carriage.

One of them is London's tube:
I'm sorry, I wasn't aware that the under-construction S-Stock was so outdated:





Or that the different traffic conditions in Singapore enabled the Bay Area to get something just like the C951:



Or that it was as completely unnecessary to have end-access doors in the trans-bay tube as it is in Barcelona:



In making a comparison of a real-life unit to an early render image, you are creating a fallacy. You need to compare like to like, in-service to in-service/under construction.

Furthermore, the New Tube for London represents about ten years worth of technological advances (service entry 2025-2033). So it is not exactly practical to compare it to something that was ordered in 2012.

Here's the final BART render for comparison:



It seems to me that they did a pretty damn good job of bringing that to fruition.

Compare the early mock-ups for the original BART carriages:



With what was made:

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Old January 30th, 2016, 08:39 PM   #1233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenixboi08 View Post
....I think most riders couldn't care less how "futuristic" the outside looks, but are more concerned about the interior.

I had this very experience with WMATA's 7000-series cars: I always thought they were hideous, until one pulled up at a station, and I boarded. It's actually quite nice.
I personally care somewhat about the styling, but I don't need it to look futuristic or avant garde.
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Old January 30th, 2016, 09:06 PM   #1234
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Remove the returns in your [img] code.
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 09:38 AM   #1235
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Unnecessary excuses to justify OUTDATED junk! No ad hominem.

Quote:
Furthermore, the New Tube for London represents about ten years worth of technological advances
You just don't read?

BART's cars from the "future" (sic!) are for the future! People in 2050s will run on that crap.

London's old trains from 1996 are looking more modern than this "futuristic" (sic!) carriage:



https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...1996_stock.jpg

See any similarities between the BART's design of the "future" (not even "of present"!) and European 20th century?

Therefore, London's old cars (which London is dumping) equals BART's "futuristic" cars for next half of century? Really, like really?

Even today's Berlin has more modern u-bahn (subway) trains than San Francisco's "cars from the future" (sic!):



http://i2.wp.com/www.globalrailnews....size=720%2C400

Newer yet to come.

You do realize how BART's choice is awkward and budget based? Even they know what have they done.

They had 3 offers per se:

First (21st century based) offer:



http://media.baycitizen.org/uploaded...al/Inspiro.jpg

Second offer:



http://cdn.citylab.com/media/img/cit...lead_large.jpg

Finally, the cheapest and oldest (20th century) looking offer:



http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/me.../25a7a4d15.jpg

Quote:
(service entry 2025-2033)
Mmm, I've just said that:

Quote:
NOTE this -- we'll be stuck with this one for the next 40 years. Having in mind that is already awkward, imagine how will look compared to advanced world 4 decades from now.
Read.

Quote:
Or that it was as completely unnecessary to have end-access doors in the trans-bay tube as it is in Barcelona
Yes, like i said -- it's an OLD vehicle that Barcelona is throwing away. You have right -- just like BART's trains from "future" (sic!) -- they're outdated. Simple as that.

They have new ones:



http://i.huffpost.com/gen/787481/ima...T-facebook.jpg

More modern are yet to come.

In sum, while the world is dumping trash, we're just getting one. For next 40 years.

Now, what's the next excuse? Easter Bunny?

Last edited by JimmyHD; February 3rd, 2016 at 10:12 AM.
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 09:42 AM   #1236
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Wait a minute. Trains may look outdated, but, consider the function too that is the inside. Many subway trains do not even have adequate space for the handicapped, let alone bike space. If you were to design a BART train now (provided that we didn't go with the new car design approved a few years back), how would you design it? Which metro systems will you get your inspiration from? And how would you address the key issue that BART runs on an Indian gauge that everything needs to be custom built and maintained in specific ways?
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Old February 3rd, 2016, 10:04 AM   #1237
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Quote:
Many subway trains do not even have adequate space for the handicapped, let alone bike space
Vast majority of Europe's has it for, like, 2 decades.

Nothing new for Europeans.

Quote:
If you were to design a BART train now (provided that we didn't go with the new car design approved a few years back), how would you design it? Which metro systems will you get your inspiration from? And how would you address the key issue that BART runs on an Indian gauge that everything needs to be custom built and maintained in specific ways?
You don't need to look far. We've had great design offers.

First two proposals were just fine.

Last edited by JimmyHD; February 3rd, 2016 at 10:14 AM.
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Old February 9th, 2016, 08:22 AM   #1238
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Old February 9th, 2016, 09:22 AM   #1239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHD View Post
Vast majority of Europe's has it for, like, 2 decades.

Nothing new for Europeans.
While most agencies accept bikes full-time like BART, Caltrain, or Santa Clara Valley Transportation Authority, a few agencies like Muni Metro and its streetcar counterpart do not.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JimmyHD View Post
You don't need to look far. We've had great design offers.

First two proposals were just fine.
Then why do you seem to be hostile with BART's revised train proposal (number 2) which will eventually be the train set we're getting? If you want number 1 to be BART's next train, it has to go through the hoops with the Federal Railroad Authority for extensive testing, engineering studies, and modifications, something that would take more time compared to what BART needs right now.

What you're looking at at the moment is over 400,000 riders patronizing the system during the busy peak periods (6am to 10am, 3pm to 7pm), and the rush hours here are becoming longer that longer trains are needed for an extended period of time to accommodate the early commuters. Consider also the fact that we want trains that we can split apart and join quickly, especially during in between peaks, so that we can deploy an appropriate number of cars per train based on passenger loads. The shortest trains we deploy consist of 4 cars, while the longest would be 10 cars... can design 1 be made into a non-articulated train so that we can detach and attach them to driver cabs and other cars easily?
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Old February 9th, 2016, 04:05 PM   #1240
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Speaking of the new BART trains....shouldn't they have arrived by now for testing? Has anyone seen one. Last update on the BART website mentioned the first train set was about to leave the factory for the Bay Area in mid-November 2015.
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