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Old August 23rd, 2016, 05:49 PM   #1361
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Look, anything is possible if you throw enough money at it, but I was simply answering your question.
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Old August 23rd, 2016, 11:00 PM   #1362
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Is there any new streetcar (or surface light rail) lines expected to be built?
As well are any bus routes converted to trolley service using overhead wiring not batteries.
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Old August 24th, 2016, 12:49 AM   #1363
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There are plans for the E-Embarcadero to be extended at both ends. And the Central Subway may surface beyond Chinatown and run on the surface to Fisherman's Wharf. Another branch of the Muni Metro may run out Geary Street, surfacing once beyond the worst traffic.

There may be reroutes and modifications to existing trackless trolley routes, and new routes may be created mostly using various existing lines. However, major expansion of the wires is unlikely.

Look on the MUNI website for other proposed surface line expansions.
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Old August 25th, 2016, 04:58 AM   #1364
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
There are plans for the E-Embarcadero to be extended at both ends. And the Central Subway may surface beyond Chinatown and run on the surface to Fisherman's Wharf. Another branch of the Muni Metro may run out Geary Street, surfacing once beyond the worst traffic.

There may be reroutes and modifications to existing trackless trolley routes, and new routes may be created mostly using various existing lines. However, major expansion of the wires is unlikely.

Look on the MUNI website for other proposed surface line expansions.
Thank you
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Old August 25th, 2016, 06:15 AM   #1365
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Does anybody know why Muni chooses to keep the traditional streetcars rather than replacing them with modern light rail or streetcar vehicles?

I was up in SF last weekend and the best way to get from 5th/Market to Fisherman's Wharf was the F line. The trip there was on a bus, interestingly, and the trip back was in one of those old streetcars.

Considering that Muni also operates a fleet of largely at-grade light rail vehicles, how come they're keeping the old "historic" streetcars?
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Old August 25th, 2016, 06:34 AM   #1366
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The Muni is underground on Market Street, but goes south after Folsom. The vintage trolley is above ground on Market Street, but has a different route after Market street and goes to the Wharf. It's a slow but pretty ride, if you avoid the crazies. Muni should be extended to the Wharf.

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Originally Posted by SSMEX View Post
Does anybody know why Muni chooses to keep the traditional streetcars rather than replacing them with modern light rail or streetcar vehicles?

I was up in SF last weekend and the best way to get from 5th/Market to Fisherman's Wharf was the F line. The trip there was on a bus, interestingly, and the trip back was in one of those old streetcars.

Considering that Muni also operates a fleet of largely at-grade light rail vehicles, how come they're keeping the old "historic" streetcars?
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Old August 25th, 2016, 08:00 AM   #1367
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSMEX View Post
Does anybody know why Muni chooses to keep the traditional streetcars rather than replacing them with modern light rail or streetcar vehicles?

I was up in SF last weekend and the best way to get from 5th/Market to Fisherman's Wharf was the F line. The trip there was on a bus, interestingly, and the trip back was in one of those old streetcars.

Considering that Muni also operates a fleet of largely at-grade light rail vehicles, how come they're keeping the old "historic" streetcars?
Historical iconic streetcars. Nostalgic lines operating vintage cars, that is why they keep them like cable car tram.
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Old August 25th, 2016, 09:13 AM   #1368
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Quote:
Originally Posted by etooley1985 View Post
The Muni is underground on Market Street, but goes south after Folsom. The vintage trolley is above ground on Market Street, but has a different route after Market street and goes to the Wharf. It's a slow but pretty ride, if you avoid the crazies. Muni should be extended to the Wharf.
Definitely agree that the Muni Metro should go to the Wharf.

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Originally Posted by Tramwayman View Post
Historical iconic streetcars. Nostalgic lines operating vintage cars, that is why they keep them like cable car tram.
I get the nostalgic reasons, but the difference between this and the cable cars is that the cable cars can't easily be adapted to something different (track gauge, insane grade, no catenary, etc) whereas the streetcar lines can be run with modern LRVs with almost no modification. Nostalgic reminders are quaint and nice, but not when they compromise quality of transportation.

A high frequency route covering Market and the Embarcadero up to the Wharf using longer and modern LRVs would be an amazing addition to the rail transit system in SF.
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Old August 25th, 2016, 02:35 PM   #1369
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSMEX View Post
Does anybody know why Muni chooses to keep the traditional streetcars rather than replacing them with modern light rail or streetcar vehicles?

I was up in SF last weekend and the best way to get from 5th/Market to Fisherman's Wharf was the F line. The trip there was on a bus, interestingly, and the trip back was in one of those old streetcars.

Considering that Muni also operates a fleet of largely at-grade light rail vehicles, how come they're keeping the old "historic" streetcars?
My guess would be that, similarly to New Orleans', those cars/lines are registered landmarks...it'd probably be a headache or nearly impossible to replace them. Even though I agree they should.
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Old August 25th, 2016, 06:45 PM   #1370
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The heritage lines generally are used more by tourists. Locals avoid the Wharf like the plague. Many avoid the Embarcadero (including the Ferry Building) as well. The heavily used lines used by residents are equipped with modern LRVs.
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Old August 29th, 2016, 11:05 PM   #1371
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSMEX View Post
Definitely agree that the Muni Metro should go to the Wharf.



I get the nostalgic reasons, but the difference between this and the cable cars is that the cable cars can't easily be adapted to something different (track gauge, insane grade, no catenary, etc) whereas the streetcar lines can be run with modern LRVs with almost no modification. Nostalgic reminders are quaint and nice, but not when they compromise quality of transportation.

A high frequency route covering Market and the Embarcadero up to the Wharf using longer and modern LRVs would be an amazing addition to the rail transit system in SF.
Part of the reason may be that on Market Street the old streetcars share the overhead wires with the trolley buses. If you look carefully, the trolley pole picks up power from the positive trolley wire (with negative ground through the rails). Modern LRVs use pantographs. If you tried to use a pantograph on the shared wire it would short out by touching the negative trolley wire as well as the positive.

There's nothing historic in regards to San Francisco about the streetcars - they're all brought in from other cities. only a few, if any, actually previously ran in San Francisco
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Old August 29th, 2016, 11:41 PM   #1372
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Actually, about a dozen ran in San Francisco originally.

http://sfmsr.wpengine.com/streetcars/

http://sfmsr.wpengine.com/streetcarroster/
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Old August 30th, 2016, 01:22 AM   #1373
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Old August 30th, 2016, 03:30 AM   #1374
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSMEX View Post
Does anybody know why Muni chooses to keep the traditional streetcars rather than replacing them with modern light rail or streetcar vehicles?

I was up in SF last weekend and the best way to get from 5th/Market to Fisherman's Wharf was the F line. The trip there was on a bus, interestingly, and the trip back was in one of those old streetcars.

Considering that Muni also operates a fleet of largely at-grade light rail vehicles, how come they're keeping the old "historic" streetcars?
I can provide a clearer answer:

There are actually multiple types of streetcars, all of which, coincidentally, use the same standard rail gauge:

- Cable cars (the only system in operation left in North America)
- Historic streetcars (many of which were "imported" from other cities during the Heritage Streetcar festival after the 1989 Loma Prieta Earthquake)
- Modern streetcars (made in Italy, for Muni Metro)

The traditional streetcars are there because it brings the nostalgia of a bygone era when San Francisco had multiple streetcar lines (lettered A to R), and it reminds residents and visitors of a long lost past when streetcars ruled the Bay Bridge before the Interstate Highway System was adopted in 1956. The connections between San Francisco Municipal Railway and the Key System (which did Transbay crossings) are pretty deep, in that the two complemented one another in providing streetcar services on both sides of the Bay.

Actually, for a local like yours truly, I know other ways to get to Fisherman's Wharf from 5th & Market:

- 8-Bayshore from Kearny & Geary (go to the last stop)
- 30-Stockton from Kearny & Geary (best if you wanna start from Ghirardelli Square at N Point & Larkin)
- Powell/Hyde Cable Car (this may be pricey but tourists line up in droves)

Other transit options serving Fisherman's Wharf include:

- E-Embarcadero (streetcar line between Fisherman's Wharf and Caltrain Depot)
- 39-Coit (brings you to Coit Tower)
- 47-Van Ness (brings you to Caltrain Depot via Van Ness Avenue, City Hall, and Market Street)

And by the way, some of the original historic streetcars that ran around San Francisco are the ones with double-ended doors (1005, 1006, 1007, 1011)... go to www.streetcar.org to learn more about them.
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Old August 30th, 2016, 07:05 AM   #1375
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightrail View Post
Part of the reason may be that on Market Street the old streetcars share the overhead wires with the trolley buses. If you look carefully, the trolley pole picks up power from the positive trolley wire (with negative ground through the rails). Modern LRVs use pantographs. If you tried to use a pantograph on the shared wire it would short out by touching the negative trolley wire as well as the positive.

There's nothing historic in regards to San Francisco about the streetcars - they're all brought in from other cities. only a few, if any, actually previously ran in San Francisco
Quote:
Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams View Post

The traditional streetcars are there because it brings the nostalgia of a bygone era when San Francisco had multiple streetcar lines (lettered A to R), and it reminds residents and visitors of a long lost past when streetcars ruled the Bay Bridge before the Interstate Highway System was adopted in 1956. The connections between San Francisco Municipal Railway and the Key System (which did Transbay crossings) are pretty deep, in that the two complemented one another in providing streetcar services on both sides of the Bay.
This brings up an interesting dilemma. There should be no question that modern LRVs are smoother, quieter, more comfortable, and more reliable than historic streetcars. At what point do we forgo the nostalgic value of transportation for a more modern alternative? Why should a few key lines running on critical corridors be stuck in the 1930s when we could modernize them without huge changes (the pantograph/trolley bus issue notwithstanding)?

If it were up to me, I feel like the cable car service is already sufficient as a tourist attraction/landmark and the streetcars should be modernized. I'm sure even tourists would appreciate a better way of getting to the Wharf.
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Old August 30th, 2016, 07:24 AM   #1376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSMEX View Post
This brings up an interesting dilemma. There should be no question that modern LRVs are smoother, quieter, more comfortable, and more reliable than historic streetcars. At what point do we forgo the nostalgic value of transportation for a more modern alternative? Why should a few key lines running on critical corridors be stuck in the 1930s when we could modernize them without huge changes (the pantograph/trolley bus issue notwithstanding)?

If it were up to me, I feel like the cable car service is already sufficient as a tourist attraction/landmark and the streetcars should be modernized. I'm sure even tourists would appreciate a better way of getting to the Wharf.
There is definitely a better option for getting to the warf:

https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/...pt%20Study.pdf

If only the funds were limitless.

Personally, I think the historic streetcars are very important for the feel and culture of the city. I think they can also be run in parallel with more modern systems. You already see this where the N and T lines share the historic streetcar tracks and you'll see buses taking some of the load on the F line.
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Old August 30th, 2016, 09:32 AM   #1377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSMEX View Post
This brings up an interesting dilemma. There should be no question that modern LRVs are smoother, quieter, more comfortable, and more reliable than historic streetcars. At what point do we forgo the nostalgic value of transportation for a more modern alternative? Why should a few key lines running on critical corridors be stuck in the 1930s when we could modernize them without huge changes (the pantograph/trolley bus issue notwithstanding)?

If it were up to me, I feel like the cable car service is already sufficient as a tourist attraction/landmark and the streetcars should be modernized. I'm sure even tourists would appreciate a better way of getting to the Wharf.
The thing with Market Street is, it acts as the Main Street of San Francisco. It gives visitors their lasting impressions of the City by the Bay, so we invest so much time and energy in making it as vibrant and accessible as possible. At the same time, since that's where a high concentration of businesses and high-end shops are located, we have to accommodate everything on that corridor to give that sense of juxtaposition between the past and the present. Heck, the F-Market streetcar essentially duplicates with Muni Metro underground between Embarcadero and Castro stations for crying out loud... and the closest bus equivalent to that duplication would be the 7-Haight/Noriega.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nxy View Post
There is definitely a better option for getting to the warf:

https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/...pt%20Study.pdf

If only the funds were limitless.

Personally, I think the historic streetcars are very important for the feel and culture of the city. I think they can also be run in parallel with more modern systems. You already see this where the N and T lines share the historic streetcar tracks and you'll see buses taking some of the load on the F line.
That's so true. We are even considering extending the historic streetcar line to Fort Mason in the Marina District in the long run using a disused tunnel. I am crossing fingers that that plan will materialize soon.
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Old August 30th, 2016, 04:12 PM   #1378
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From Railway Gazette:

Quote:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/n...ompletion.html

First San Francisco Muni S200 vehicles nearing completion
30 Aug 2016





USA: San Francisco Mayor Ed Lee and San Francisco Municipal Transportation Agency officials visited Siemens’ plant in Sacramento on August 29 to look at the first of 215 light rail vehicles that Siemens is building for the city’s Muni network. The first vehicle is due to arrive in San Francisco for testing in December.

SFMTA signed a $648m contract in September 2014 for 175 LRVs with options for up to 85 more, and subsequently called off options for 40 in June 2015. Siemens says that this is its largest ever US LRV order

...
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Old August 30th, 2016, 04:22 PM   #1379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fieldsofdreams View Post
I can provide a clearer answer:

There are actually multiple types of streetcars, all of which, coincidentally, use the same standard rail gauge:

- Cable cars (the only system in operation left in North America)
- Historic streetcars (many of which were "imported" from other cities during the Heritage Streetcar festival after the 1989 Loma Prieta Earthquake)
- Modern streetcars (made in Italy, for Muni Metro)

The traditional streetcars are there because it brings the nostalgia of a bygone era when San Francisco had multiple streetcar lines (lettered A to R), and it reminds residents and visitors of a long lost past when streetcars ruled the Bay Bridge before the Interstate Highway System was adopted in 1956. The connections between San Francisco Municipal Railway and the Key System (which did Transbay crossings) are pretty deep, in that the two complemented one another in providing streetcar services on both sides of the Bay.

Actually, for a local like yours truly, I know other ways to get to Fisherman's Wharf from 5th & Market:

- 8-Bayshore from Kearny & Geary (go to the last stop)
- 30-Stockton from Kearny & Geary (best if you wanna start from Ghirardelli Square at N Point & Larkin)
- Powell/Hyde Cable Car (this may be pricey but tourists line up in droves)

Other transit options serving Fisherman's Wharf include:

- E-Embarcadero (streetcar line between Fisherman's Wharf and Caltrain Depot)
- 39-Coit (brings you to Coit Tower)
- 47-Van Ness (brings you to Caltrain Depot via Van Ness Avenue, City Hall, and Market Street)

And by the way, some of the original historic streetcars that ran around San Francisco are the ones with double-ended doors (1005, 1006, 1007, 1011)... go to www.streetcar.org to learn more about them.
I feel I should note that the surviving cable car lines are actually 3' gauge. All of the standard gauge cable cars are long gone.

BTW-I'm looking for an old map showing the entire MUNI rail network. Does anyone have a copy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nxy View Post
There is definitely a better option for getting to the warf:

https://www.sfmta.com/sites/default/...pt%20Study.pdf

If only the funds were limitless.

Personally, I think the historic streetcars are very important for the feel and culture of the city. I think they can also be run in parallel with more modern systems. You already see this where the N and T lines share the historic streetcar tracks and you'll see buses taking some of the load on the F line.
Hopefully, we'll see that soon.
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Old September 5th, 2016, 05:11 AM   #1380
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http://vtaorgcontent.s3-us-west-1.am...er2016_BRO.pdf

VTA released a newsletter regarding the Bart Silicon Valley extension
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