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Old November 2nd, 2010, 08:50 AM   #161
FDW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKorean View Post
Oh, so that line is for the tourism purpose?
Tourist's make up a sizeable chunk of the F-Line's ridership, but it's also used rather heavily by locals as well, given it's only local service on Market St west of Haight that isn't MUNI Metro. (And the gap between the Van Ness and Church is fairly broad, they're about 1 km apart) From what I've seen the line gets about 20,000 passengers a day, which makes it one of the more heavily used lines.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 01:30 PM   #162
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Very old street cars. Why arent the Muni replacing them?
They're likely more reliable than the Breda cars, too.
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 07:48 PM   #163
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Originally Posted by k.k.jetcar View Post
They're likely more reliable than the Breda cars, too.
Anything is more reliable than a Breda car. (But yeah, the F-Line cars have turned out to be rather reliable)
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Old November 2nd, 2010, 08:26 PM   #164
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They're nice, but their novelty wears off because Muni is inept and can't operate them properly.
  • The line is incredibly prone to delays and overcrowding. It's so unreliable that locals are better off using buses (8X, 30, etc.). Even the cable cars can be a better option, as long as you know where to board. They also reduced the frequencies, making it even less attractive.
  • The Milan cars and the two-man cars are so slow that they end up blocking all the streetcars behind them, as well as any trolley buses, etc. that may be sharing the wires on Market Street.
  • Poor operator training and track or vehicle maintenance / design... These guys just don't know "passenger comfort." The PCCs in particular are quite jerky and can sway violently side-to-side. Plenty bumpy, too.
  • Fare collection is too slow. Lots of people boarding with cash fares, Muni refusing to use the third set of doors on the Milan cars, etc.
  • Smelly homeless people and riffraff getting on for free.

Again, these issues are less of a problem for tourists, who are riding it for novelty / nostalgia, but as a former regular user, it's quite taxing when all you want to do is get somewhere.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 06:01 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quashlo View Post
They're nice, but their novelty wears off because Muni is inept and can't operate them properly.
  • The line is incredibly prone to delays and overcrowding. It's so unreliable that locals are better off using buses (8X, 30, etc.). Even the cable cars can be a better option, as long as you know where to board. They also reduced the frequencies, making it even less attractive.
  • The Milan cars and the two-man cars are so slow that they end up blocking all the streetcars behind them, as well as any trolley buses, etc. that may be sharing the wires on Market Street.
  • Poor operator training and track or vehicle maintenance / design... These guys just don't know "passenger comfort." The PCCs in particular are quite jerky and can sway violently side-to-side. Plenty bumpy, too.
  • Fare collection is too slow. Lots of people boarding with cash fares, Muni refusing to use the third set of doors on the Milan cars, etc.
  • Smelly homeless people and riffraff getting on for free.

Again, these issues are less of a problem for tourists, who are riding it for novelty / nostalgia, but as a former regular user, it's quite taxing when all you want to do is get somewhere.
They're actually going to restore all of the remaining service they cut in a few months (They restored most of it back in september). And the locals that I talk about using are really the outer market segment who want to avoid the crush-loads on inbound MUNI Metro trains at the Duboce Triangle. And those Maintenance issue were created mostly by the sheer popularity of the line, ride quality should improve somewhat when the rest of the Newark PCC's finally enter service (which won't be for another couple of years) and MUNI can take the ex-SEPTA PCC's out for a much need heavy rehab, I agree about the asinine practice of not using the third door on the Milaners, I think that policy is part of MUNI's quixotic to make every get on through the front, regardless of it's idiocy in the current day, though Clipper is helping to speed things up a bit.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 06:29 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheKorean View Post
Oh, so that line is for the tourism purpose?
Absolutely not. Although the Market St. portion of the "Historic Streetcar" line is paralleled under ground by a subway, most everybody I know prefers to take the surface streetcar if they are only going as far as it goes. I love those old cars--an attitude I think is widely shared. I rode ones just like them as a small child in Washington DC (and there is a DC Transit car in the SF stable).

Also, while it is mostly tourists who would be going to Fisherman's Wharf where this line goes on the downtown end, anyone, including longtime city residents, who happens to be going to that part of town would take this line.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 06:34 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quashlo View Post
They're nice, but their novelty wears off because Muni is inept and can't operate them properly.
  • The line is incredibly prone to delays and overcrowding. It's so unreliable that locals are better off using buses (8X, 30, etc.). Even the cable cars can be a better option, as long as you know where to board. They also reduced the frequencies, making it even less attractive.
  • The Milan cars and the two-man cars are so slow that they end up blocking all the streetcars behind them, as well as any trolley buses, etc. that may be sharing the wires on Market Street.
  • Poor operator training and track or vehicle maintenance / design... These guys just don't know "passenger comfort." The PCCs in particular are quite jerky and can sway violently side-to-side. Plenty bumpy, too.
  • Fare collection is too slow. Lots of people boarding with cash fares, Muni refusing to use the third set of doors on the Milan cars, etc.
  • Smelly homeless people and riffraff getting on for free.

Again, these issues are less of a problem for tourists, who are riding it for novelty / nostalgia, but as a former regular user, it's quite taxing when all you want to do is get somewhere.
There is little in your catalogue of issues that is specific to the historic cars except issues of their design (like the swaying) which have been features of them since the 1940s when virtually every transit system in the US used them as its main rail vehicle. As for the track maintenance, it was, of course, completely rebuilt in the late 1980s and you'll have to site specific problems because I don't know of any serious issues with the tracks.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 06:47 AM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cal_Escapee View Post
Absolutely not. Although the Market St. portion of the "Historic Streetcar" line is paralleled under ground by a subway, most everybody I know prefers to take the surface streetcar if they are only going as far as it goes. I love those old cars--an attitude I think is widely shared. I rode ones just like them as a small child in Washington DC (and there is a DC Transit car in the SF stable).

Also, while it is mostly tourists who would be going to Fisherman's Wharf where this line goes on the downtown end, anyone, including longtime city residents, who happens to be going to that part of town would take this line.
1076 isn't actually a genuine DC streetcar, it's a Ex-Newark/Twin Cities PCC painted in the Livery of a DC streetcar, still it looks nice. (And I like the Armrests in the Newark PCC's)
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 07:24 AM   #169
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I agree that it is a popular choice for locals at the Castro end... But for people already in Downtown trying to get to the Wharf, I find it a chore just because it's so unreliable and crowded. I sometimes like to ride after work from Downtown to the Wharf, and I can be sitting at 4th / Market on a weekday around 6:30 for 15-20 minutes with not a single streetcar in sight. In situations like this, it's so much less hassle-free to just walk to 3rd and catch an 8X or 30 or even catch a cable car on Powell.

In regards to specific track issues, I've been a little out-of-touch with Muni happenings lately, to be honest, but I think it's clear that the track on Market isn't exactly in great shape... There were several times a few years ago when the rail had become completely dislodged from the subway air vent grates at 5th / Market... Everytime a car drove over it, you could see the rail vibrate side to side. Disaster waiting to happen.

And speaking of Clipper, anybody have any interesting stories to tell?

I've been avoiding switching over until they finally abolished my "A" paper pass, knowing that there's always going to be some growing pains and the fact that the vendor and the technology / system suck. Perhaps I've been spoiled by smartcards that actually work, but I'm still baffled why the response time has to be so excruciatingly slow... If anything, I think it's increased dwell times, as flashing a paper pass was much quicker.
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Old November 3rd, 2010, 10:18 AM   #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quashlo View Post
I agree that it is a popular choice for locals at the Castro end... But for people already in Downtown trying to get to the Wharf, I find it a chore just because it's so unreliable and crowded. I sometimes like to ride after work from Downtown to the Wharf, and I can be sitting at 4th / Market on a weekday around 6:30 for 15-20 minutes with not a single streetcar in sight. In situations like this, it's so much less hassle-free to just walk to 3rd and catch an 8X or 30 or even catch a cable car on Powell.

In regards to specific track issues, I've been a little out-of-touch with Muni happenings lately, to be honest, but I think it's clear that the track on Market isn't exactly in great shape... There were several times a few years ago when the rail had become completely dislodged from the subway air vent grates at 5th / Market... Everytime a car drove over it, you could see the rail vibrate side to side. Disaster waiting to happen.

And speaking of Clipper, anybody have any interesting stories to tell?

I've been avoiding switching over until they finally abolished my "A" paper pass, knowing that there's always going to be some growing pains and the fact that the vendor and the technology / system suck. Perhaps I've been spoiled by smartcards that actually work, but I'm still baffled why the response time has to be so excruciatingly slow... If anything, I think it's increased dwell times, as flashing a paper pass was much quicker.
Well, I've been using Clipper regularly since last year when BART started accepting it again (back when it was still translink), but I had first got a Clipper card back in spring 2009 when MUNI started accepting Clipper. I haven't had problems because I haven't been using some of the more complex features like the Autoload system, so it's actually been quite easy for me so far. As for dwell times, it's probably slightly slower than if you paper pass, but once you know how to economize the positioning of the card as you get on the bus there really isn't much of a time difference. And even so it's still faster than paying cash in the front, so as Clipper use increases, dwell times at stops might go down a bit. But the big point about the advantage of Clipper is that you will be able to use it on all of the regional transit agencies once it's fully rolled out. Sam Trans and VTA are the only sizeable agencies left in the region still not accepting it, but that should change soon as Sam Trans will start accepting it next month and VTA should start accepting by next spring.
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Old November 6th, 2010, 02:54 AM   #171
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I like the trams!
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Old November 6th, 2010, 05:31 PM   #172
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me too

Quote:
Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
[IMG]http://i56.************/2625r3a.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i56.************/nyy4ae.jpg[/IMG]
The speediness that Frisco's trolley busses used to whip on by under the complex overhead wire junctions at trolley route intersections was a spectacle, considering that the models where I'd been living had to reduce said passages to a crummy 5MPH!!!
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Old November 7th, 2010, 03:11 AM   #173
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Originally Posted by trainrover View Post
me too



The speediness that Frisco's trolley busses used to whip on by under the complex overhead wire junctions at trolley route intersections was a spectacle, considering that the models where I'd been living had to reduce said passages to a crummy 5MPH!!!
Yeah, the Trolleybus system here is awesome, it covers most of the city (with the Exception of the Southwestern part), and the system runs really frequently, with 4 lines running all night. BTW, Where do you live?
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Old November 7th, 2010, 07:28 AM   #174
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thanks for starting this thread. totally under my radar. here's some bad news in my part of the bay:

Quote:
SMART votes to start train, delay Cloverdale, Larkspur legs


KENT PORTER/The Press Democrat
Matt Stevens of the SMART public outreach holds a times-up placard for David Schonbrunn of San Rafael during a public question period at a SMART special meeting in Santa Rosa on Saturday.

By BOB NORBERG
THE PRESS DEMOCRAT

Published: Saturday, November 6, 2010 at 3:31 p.m.
Last Modified: Saturday, November 6, 2010 at 5:48 p.m.

Sonoma-Marin Area Rail District directors, facing a $350 million funding gap, chose Saturday to build an initial line from Railroad Square in Santa Rosa to the Marin Civic Center, with extensions delayed to Cloverdale and Larkspur.

“What we did today was put the SMART train on the tracks for 2014,” said Debora Fudge, SMART chairwoman. “The train is now a reality.”

But it also is significantly less than the 70-mile line promised voters in 2008, when a quarter-cent sales tax hike to help pay for the commute train and accompanying bicycle path was approved by a large margin. Completion of the entire line could take another two to four years.

Directors at the special board meeting said it was important to get a train going, despite the economic downturn that has sliced into tax revenue and bond funding.

“No one saw the tsunami that headed our way and I am saddened we can't do the whole magilla, but we have to get something going,” said Charles McGlashan, a SMART director from Marin County.

The decision was made after a six-hour workshop Saturday that compared the latest cost estimates to build the line to the projections of sales tax revenues and other funds to pay for it. It passed with 10 votes in favor, one no vote and one abstention.

Director Madeline Kellner, a Novato city councilwoman, voted against the proposal, saying the line would be too short to capture significant ridership.

“It doesn't make sense, it is only half a train,” Kellner said.

Director Judy Arnold of San Rafael abstained, saying she wanted the final vote postponed until the board's meeting Wednesday in San Rafael, where Marin residents could get a chance to voice their opinions.

A contingent of Cloverdale residents at the meeting wore “No Taxation without Transportation” placards.

“We are fearful that if you do an initial phase and leave Cloverdale out, we will stay out,” said Elissa Morrash of the Cloverdale of Chamber of Commerce. “People will hear that and not like it....We deserve better.”

Supporters, however, said there was no other choice.

“We have an ambitious plan and we have no choice but to split it up,” said Jim Eddie, a SMART director from Mendocino County. “You can bite off more than you can chew, but you can chew more if you take smaller bites.”

The cost to build a line from Cloverdale to Larkspur is now estimated to cost $695 million, an increase of 18 percent because of unexpected costs, such as having to replace the bridges over the Petaluma River and over the Russian River in Healdsburg.

Because of the decline in sales tax revenues and a weak bond market, however, SMART only has $350 million for construction, which is 25 less than expected.

John Lackey, SMART's capital projects director, said the agency has identified enough savings to bridge the gap between what the first phase of construction would cost, $395 million, and the $350 million that is available.

Under the plan, SMART staff will seek bids on construction of the train stations, a Santa Rosa maintenance facility and all the operational systems needed to run trains from the Civic Center and Railroad Square as the end stations.

It would serve an estimated 57 percent of the ridership along 40 miles.

...
FOR FULL ARTICLE: http://www.pressdemocrat.com/article...1349?p=1&tc=pg
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Old November 19th, 2010, 12:42 AM   #175
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BTW, Where do you live?
Montréal.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 11:15 PM   #176
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BART - the est of my pics:

[IMG]http://i52.************/fkwi09.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i56.************/29d8qc8.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i52.************/6sz1uq.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i55.************/xauvl0.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i51.************/2j0hxr6.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i51.************/2uhs85y.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i55.************/10hlvzr.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i55.************/2vdn02g.jpg[/IMG]
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₪₪₪Zielona Góra moim okiem₪₪₪ Zielonogórskie autobusy₪₪₪Port Lotniczy ZIElona Góra₪₪₪ BRT₪₪₪ścieżki rowerowe w ZG
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Last edited by Falubaz; November 19th, 2010 at 11:20 PM.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 11:17 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Falubaz View Post
Some trams and troleybuses

[IMG]http://i56.************/2w3oy9x.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i56.************/n6v13a.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i56.************/2625r3a.jpg[/IMG]

[IMG]http://i56.************/nyy4ae.jpg[/IMG]
Is it moscow?
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Old November 19th, 2010, 11:23 PM   #178
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hahahha, why should it be Moscow? It's all in San Francisco, in States.
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₪₪₪[Świat] „Przebłyski pamięci”₪₪₪Moja Ameryka - nie tylko Stany
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Old November 20th, 2010, 01:51 AM   #179
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never thought a american city would look so like an old soviet republic
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Old November 20th, 2010, 05:11 AM   #180
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never thought a american city would look so like an old soviet republic
What's so bad about that? I mean the Electric Buses are a Skoda model but those Streetcars were made in the US, in fact that streetcar design actually went on to influence streetcar design big time on both sides of the Iron Curtain. And the big reason why SF kept those streetcars and trolleybuses was that the electricity needed to power them is essentially free.
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