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Old October 16th, 2010, 11:38 PM   #81
Snorlax
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130t = insane?
Just a normal weight for a diesel with >4.000hp

TRAXX Diesel and ER20 are less powerfull and aren't able to use the overhead wire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALP-45DP
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Old October 16th, 2010, 11:51 PM   #82
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Originally Posted by Snorlax View Post
130t = insane?
Just a normal weight for a diesel with >4.000hp

TRAXX Diesel and ER20 are less powerfull and aren't able to use the overhead wire
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ALP-45DP
Yes it is insane. 130 tons on 4 axles means more than 30 tons/axle.
Definitely too heavy, certainly for riding fast. Where is this 130 ton
figure coming from ?
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Old October 17th, 2010, 10:00 PM   #83
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Just like Snorlax says, it's a normal figure for American diesel locomotives. Plus the added weight for being an electric locomotive makes it 131t.

It's indeed insane, but hey just look at the state of passenger rail in America compared to Europe and Japan, this could be one of the reasons.
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Old October 17th, 2010, 10:14 PM   #84
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Great. Technically, not necessarily the design.

130 tones for a passenger locomotive is insane. Both the European Bombardier TRAXX and the Siemens ER 20 are 50 tones lighter.
Maximum axle weight in the Spanish railways is 20 tons. and weight of this locomotive is 74 tonnes (4 axes< 80 t)
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Old October 18th, 2010, 01:47 AM   #85
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Just like Snorlax says, it's a normal figure for American diesel locomotives. Plus the added weight for being an electric locomotive makes it 131t.

It's indeed insane, but hey just look at the state of passenger rail in America compared to Europe and Japan, this could be one of the reasons.
American railways, save for NEC, are optimized for freight transport. They can easily take that load, but specs for the tracks will not allow fast traffic at all. Just a different model.
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Old October 18th, 2010, 02:36 AM   #86
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This is the first electric locomotive in the world with Talgo RD automatic variable gauge system and dual voltage for High Speed services.
Designed to travel at a maximum speed of 260 km/h.

image hosted on flickr

http://www.flickr.com/photos/javier-lopez

http://www.talgo.com/index.php/en/travca_pro.php
Are same loco and coaches used on Madrid-Paris and Madrid-Milan night trains ?
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Old October 18th, 2010, 03:24 AM   #87
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American railways, save for NEC, are optimized for freight transport. They can easily take that load, but specs for the tracks will not allow fast traffic at all. Just a different model.
What do you know about American Railways , the Northeastern Network is, different. Not all locos are that heavy either.... Our trains can go very fast , once again you know nothing about our networks..
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Old October 18th, 2010, 03:36 AM   #88
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Our trains can go very fast , once again you know nothing about our networks..
Which American train service runs at VMax 150 mph (passenger) or 100 mph (freight) and how length are the longest sectors where such VCom are possible?

I'm not criticizing the American network, I'm pointing a FACT that, OVERALL (as always, exception applies), the American rail network is optimized for freight traffic, and they are fair successful on that (they haul 38% of total ton*mileage of US freight, whilst in Europe they don't get 15%).

One, among many reasons and causes for such success is the widespread adoption of massive 2-mile long freight trains, some running on massive locos like those shown in this thread, that minimizes operational costs in a country where the scale gains of train transport are already downplayed by cheap fuel.
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Old October 18th, 2010, 04:38 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Which American train service runs at VMax 150 mph (passenger) or 100 mph (freight) and how length are the longest sectors where such VCom are possible?

I'm not criticizing the American network, I'm pointing a FACT that, OVERALL (as always, exception applies), the American rail network is optimized for freight traffic, and they are fair successful on that (they haul 38% of total ton*mileage of US freight, whilst in Europe they don't get 15%).

One, among many reasons and causes for such success is the widespread adoption of massive 2-mile long freight trains, some running on massive locos like those shown in this thread, that minimizes operational costs in a country where the scale gains of train transport are already downplayed by cheap fuel.
Amtrak's Acela and Regional vary between 120-50mph. By the end of the decade there will be at least 7 more lines with that and faster. Yes you are criticizing the American network , you do it all the time. Most Freight trains are not 2 miles long. Electrification is planned and other network upgrades. Our trains get ppl form point A to Point B and thats all that matters.
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Old October 18th, 2010, 08:18 AM   #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Momo1435 View Post
Just like Snorlax says, it's a normal figure for American diesel locomotives. Plus the added weight for being an electric locomotive makes it 131t.

It's indeed insane, but hey just look at the state of passenger rail in America compared to Europe and Japan, this could be one of the reasons.


130 tonne passenger locos do exist in europe though too, look at the new euro 4000, i believe it sometimes is used for passenger rail.


Why is it always about America's heavy trains? Tons of other countries use locomotives of a similar size outside of Europe and Japan.

This thread is to appreciate giant locomotives, not talk about how they're bad.

Big trains are pretty badass.

Last edited by Jay; October 18th, 2010 at 08:27 AM.
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Old October 18th, 2010, 08:34 AM   #91
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Large locomotive in Europe



Large locomotive in Japan

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Old October 19th, 2010, 09:53 AM   #92
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Originally Posted by Jay View Post
130 tonne passenger locos do exist in europe though too, look at the new euro 4000, i believe it sometimes is used for passenger rail.

Why is it always about America's heavy trains? Tons of other countries use locomotives of a similar size outside of Europe and Japan.

This thread is to appreciate giant locomotives, not talk about how they're bad.

Big trains are pretty badass.
The difference is the load per axle.

In Europe most of the rails have limits of 20-23 t/axle, on HSL's it's even less.
If you have in Europe a loc of more than 90 t it will most likely have 6 axles.
The Euro4000 has 2 bogies with each 3 axles.

In the States locs of the same weight have only four axles, like the ALP-45.

If you let a loc with a heavy axle load drive at a certain speed, it will result in more wear & tear on the rails then a "lighter" loc.
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Old October 19th, 2010, 10:07 AM   #93
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Originally Posted by Gadiri View Post
Are same loco and coaches used on Madrid-Paris and Madrid-Milan night trains ?
The loco is a prototype owned by Talgo not used on regular service, but this type of coaches is the same of Madrid/Barcelona-Paris and Barcelona-Zürich/Milan night trains. The particular coaches in the photo are probably prototypes, too.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 03:48 AM   #94
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
The loco is a prototype owned by Talgo not used on regular service, but this type of coaches is the same of Madrid/Barcelona-Paris and Barcelona-Zürich/Milan night trains. The particular coaches in the photo are probably prototypes, too.
Thank you.

I Guess that Talgo loco and Astom Prima 2, are the only loco with ERMTS system.

Morocco bought 20 Prima 2 Bo-Bo for 75 millions euros. Morocco is 1st customer. Max speed of 200km/h (passengers) . 6400kv !


Morocco Alstom Prima 2

From Alstom Prima II Locomotives | 120 (Freight) - 200 km/h (Passengers)| 20 Units | #Acquired

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Prima II

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(click to enlarge)

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Le poste de commande de la Prima II







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Prima goes modular to tap new markets






LOCOMOTIVES: As well as Europe's changing freight market, Alstom has China, India and Russia in its sights as targets for the latest addition to its product range. Laurent Charlier reports from Belfort.

Unveiled at Belfort on May 20, the Prima II locomotive concept builds on Alstom's successful Prima I family and a number of developments tested on the Prima 6000 prototype. But as the embodiment of the company's new objective for the locomotive market, it makes greater use of modular design to shorten delivery times.

Faced with strong competition from Bombardier's Traxx family in the European market, Alstom has a clear strategy. 'We want to re-enter the locomotive market by changing gear', said Locomotive Platform Director Jean-Marc Tessier. 'We want to sit down with our customers, and promote our product'. Tessier has travelled to Finland to present Prima II to national operator VR Ltd which is looking to renew its locomotive fleet.

Although the first locomotives will be built to the standard 1 435 mm gauge, the Prima II has been designed with broader gauges in mind. Outside Europe, Alstom sees its marketing strategy as being targeted at China, India and the 1 520 mm gauge railways of the former Soviet Union.

'Alstom has had its difficulties, but we are now working at a much faster pace', said Tessier. Proof of this is the fact that investment in the Locomotives business has been increased from an annual level of €1m before 2006 to reach €3m on production facilities alone in 2008-09, accompanied by spending of between €2m and €9m on research and development.


Morocco orders first

Like its AGV high speed train (RG 3.08 p146), Alstom has sold the first Prima II straight off the drawing board. But in contrast to previous locomotive designs, the first customer is ONCF of Morocco rather than Alstom's traditional domestic client SNCF. A €75m contract for the supply of 20 locomotives was placed in November 2007. Designed to handle 15-car passenger trains at speeds up to 160 km/h, the locomotives will also be able to haul freight trains grossing up to 2 200 tonnes.

The first unit for ONCF is due to be rolled out in July 2009. Before that, during the spring and early summer of next year three European demonstrators will emerge, all capable of operating under four different voltages but equipped for different signalling and safety systems. From mid-2010 onwards, acceptance trials will be conducted in various countries on the basis of the European corridors for which the locomotives have been conceived. The precise timetable has yet to be established, but Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands and France have already been mentioned.

Alongside its new modular platform, the Prima I still remains in the Alstom catalogue and some potential customers are showing interest in a hybrid incorporating features of both versions. Alstom says it is listening to its clients and does not rule anything out. A diesel version of the Prima II is also being planned for the longer term.





Standard modular platform

The flexible, modular concept of the Prima II design is intended to allow Alstom to provide its customers with a locomotive adapted to its specific requirements. This will be achieved by combining various options, whilst using standardised subsystems to help to keep the cost down. Alstom is now following a 'corridor' approach, with signalling and safety systems installed according to operational requirements. The same applies to the traction package, which can be tailored to fit the necessary supply voltages.

Modular design means that a locomotive could be reconfigured to meet changing requirements over the course of a 30 to 40-year working life. A leasing company, for example, might wish to acquire a wide variety of locomotive types in order to respond quickly to the needs of potential operators. An initial requirement for 25 kV and 15 kV AC operation could be met by installing the appropriate traction equipment, but with the leasing market changing constantly, 3 kV and 1·5 kV DC capability might be required at a later date. This would be possible using the Prima II concept.

The first Prima II locomotives ordered by ONCF will be fitted with 3 kV DC traction equipment, but designed for a 25 kV capability when the Moroccan national operator begins to adopt this voltage in its future electrification schemes. As delivered, the locomotives will be fitted with the necessary converters for 3 kV DC operation, but with provision for the installation of a transformer at a later date.

The modular Prima II platform is also designed to accommodate other operator-specific requirements. The cab can accept the standardised EU Driver's Desk now under development, with central, left- or right-hand driving positions, as well as the fire-prevention and maintenance management systems required by different operators. Prima II is designed to operate across a wide temperature range from -40°C to 50°C, and can also be equipped for remote control.

Building on proven products

Development of the new platform has built on the success of existing designs such as the Prima I electric locomotives delivered to SNCF and Chinese Railways. Prima II inherits the mechanical equipment of its predecessor, combined with the traction package of the Prima 6000 prototype and several enhancements to ensure a more modular, standardised product platform.

The four-voltage Prima 6000 enabled Alstom to perfect a new traction package incorporating 6·5 kV IGBT inverters, which under 3 kV DC operation are capable of receiving power via a 3 kV bus rather than 1·8 kV. The supply voltage does not have to be reduced, providing a greater power output. The Prima II is rated at between 4·2 MW and 6·4 MW, depending on customer requirements and the number of supply voltages.

Whereas the Prima I was equipped with a single drawbar connecting the bogie to the locomotive body for freight operation up to 140 km/h, with provision to add a second for speeds up to 200 km/h, all versions of the Prima II will be equipped with double drawbars. The interchangeability of 140 km/h and 200 km/h bogies will be tested using the Prima 6000 prototype during three weeks of trials scheduled to take place this August in conjunction with French railway testing agency AEF.

Supplied for the SNCF BB 436000, SNCB Class 13 and CFL Class 3000 designs, Alstom's 200 km/h bogie sees regular operation at this speed on high speed infrastructure between Leuven and Ans in Belgium, and has been proven at speeds up to 220 km/h.

The Prima II bodyshell incorporates the crashworthiness provisions of Prima I. The overhang has been reduced by increasing the distance between bogie centres to mirror the dimensions of the BB 436000 design.

* CAPTION: Alstom is currently delivering Prima electric locos for several customers, including leasing company CB Rail (left) and SNCF's Transilien suburban services (right).
* CAPTION: The Prima II design features a more streamlined bodyshell than the current Prima I family.

Prima II in profile

Wheel arrangement Bo-Bo Co-Co

Weight, tonnes 86 to 90 129 to 135

Axleload tonnes 21·5 to 22·5 21·5 to 22·5

Starting tractive effort kN 320 Up to 550

Rating, kW Up to 6 400 Up to 9 600

Maximum speed, km/h 140 (freight) 120 (freight) 200 (passenger)



By: Laurent Charlier
10 July 2008
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/s...w-markets.html
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Reportage sur la Locomotive Prima II acquise par l'ONCF


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Document PDF d'Alstom sur la Prima II



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Last edited by Gadiri; October 20th, 2010 at 03:58 AM.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 05:31 PM   #95
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Are same loco and coaches used on Madrid-Paris and Madrid-Milan night trains ?
Similar cars, yes (although in a longer consist, with a different interior). But the engines change at the border, so no gauge changing engines are needed.
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Old October 20th, 2010, 05:33 PM   #96
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I'm not criticizing the American network, I'm pointing a FACT that, OVERALL (as always, exception applies), the American rail network is optimized for freight traffic, and they are fair successful on that (they haul 38% of total ton*mileage of US freight, whilst in Europe they don't get 15%).

One, among many reasons and causes for such success is the widespread adoption of massive 2-mile long freight trains, some running on massive locos like those shown in this thread, that minimizes operational costs in a country where the scale gains of train transport are already downplayed by cheap fuel.
The main reason for the success of US freight however is the geography...
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Old October 20th, 2010, 10:41 PM   #97
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I'll share this one:

E6ACT (trade name: Dragon), produced by ZNLE company in Gliwice, Poland is designed to haul trains up to 4000 tons with speed up to 140 km/h. Arrangement Co'Co', power of 5004 kW under 3kV DC, Maximum tractive effort 375 kN. On the picture still in manufacturer livery.


Photo by Grzegorz Mikosz
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Old October 21st, 2010, 01:00 AM   #98
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The IORE trains on the Ore line in northern Sweden and Norway. 180 tons, 7200 hp (5400 kW), hauls 8000 tonnes Ore trains from the Ore fields to the ports in Luleå and Narvik.



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Old October 21st, 2010, 06:13 AM   #99
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^wow those are really cool


It says the prima weight fluctuates between 86 and 130 tonnes, does that mean that there are also six axle versions of that engine?
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Old October 21st, 2010, 10:16 AM   #100
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The IORE trains on the Ore line in northern Sweden and Norway. 180 tons, 7200 hp (5400 kW), hauls 8000 tonnes Ore trains from the Ore fields to the ports in Luleå and Narvik.
These are actually "double" locomotives, and the power of a permanently coupled pair is thus 10800 kW. (5400 kW is pretty much run of the mill for a single electric engine...)
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