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Old October 21st, 2010, 10:21 AM   #101
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^wow those are really cool


It says the prima weight fluctuates between 86 and 130 tonnes, does that mean that there are also six axle versions of that engine?
Locomotives often get ballasted, to increase tractive effort on lines that have higher axle loads. So the same type can be delivered with different weights.
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Old October 22nd, 2010, 01:17 AM   #102
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Originally Posted by pietje01 View Post
The difference is the load per axle.

In Europe most of the rails have limits of 20-23 t/axle, on HSL's it's even less.
If you have in Europe a loc of more than 90 t it will most likely have 6 axles.
The Euro4000 has 2 bogies with each 3 axles.

In the States locs of the same weight have only four axles, like the ALP-45.

If you let a loc with a heavy axle load drive at a certain speed, it will result in more wear & tear on the rails then a "lighter" loc.

Because for hauling relatively light regional passenger trains (what this loco is bought for, as far as I understood) no-one needs a monster of 130tons. My point is mainly about energy efficiency. Just because the tracks would permit heavier locos, it doesn't mean that it should be done at all.
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Old October 22nd, 2010, 02:42 AM   #103
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Locomotives often get ballasted, to increase tractive effort on lines that have higher axle loads. So the same type can be delivered with different weights.
Really?

So even an 80 tonne locomotive could be weighted down to 130? Wouldn't that A. require a monstrous weight, and B. doesn't that go against euro axle loads?
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Old October 22nd, 2010, 11:11 AM   #104
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Locs of around 130t in Europe are mostly with 6 axles, so the weight per axle is still around 22.5t.
If you would take the PRIMA II loc, of wich you can find the specs in this thread, there are versions with 4 and 6 axles.
The difference in weight of those are partly due to the extra axles, and the rest is just extra "dead weight" that is added to maintain the grip of the wheels on the rails.
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Old October 22nd, 2010, 03:39 PM   #105
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Really?

So even an 80 tonne locomotive could be weighted down to 130? Wouldn't that A. require a monstrous weight, and B. doesn't that go against euro axle loads?
An 80t loco wouldn't be ballasted that much. A 120t loco perhaps. This is common practice throughout the world, for example the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GE_AC4400CW

For freight tractive effort is often more important than absolute power, and tractive effort is a function of the weight of the loco. At an adhesion of 30% - a typical figure for many locos on dry rails, a 130t loco will have 30%*130t tractive effort, or 390kN. Reduce this for wet weather.

As adding a few kilos to the loco has a negligible effect on the total weight of a freight train it does not affect operational costs much, yet allows more weight to be hauled by the loco. Power only affects the top speed a train can go, but tractive effort is required to get the train rolling in the first place. For example, a (fictional) 1000bhp 130ton loco will be able to haul the same weight of freight as a 4000bhp 130ton loco, but it will run out of power at something like 10mph instead of 70mph for the higher powered loco.

It is much easier to build a slightly underweight loco and add ballast, than to try and design all the components and try and get them to all add up to the maximum allowed by the infrastructure. If you're over by a ton that would be a major redesign.
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Old October 22nd, 2010, 04:10 PM   #106
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Really?

So even an 80 tonne locomotive could be weighted down to 130? Wouldn't that A. require a monstrous weight, and B. doesn't that go against euro axle loads?
Take for example the case of the IORE locs, these run on a line that has a max axle load of 30 tons. But these engines of course had to travel there from the plant in Germany where they were build. So they left the factory a lot lighter, in order to stay within the axle load limits for the lines they had to travel over to get to Kiruna, and where then ballasted there.
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Old October 22nd, 2010, 11:43 PM   #107
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Fot the moment the Alstom Prima 2 with 6400kv is the most powerful.



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Old October 23rd, 2010, 12:14 AM   #108
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Quote:
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Fot the moment the Alstom Prima 2 with 6400kv is the most powerful.




The CoCo version of the Prima II (with 6 axles) is even more powerful with 9 600 kW



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Old October 23rd, 2010, 03:35 AM   #109
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Do you have a picture of the 6 axle Prima? Must be cool


Just curious, what do they put in the locomotive to ballast it? metal weights? That's interesting I never knew that
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 03:58 AM   #110
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Do you have a picture of the 6 axle Prima? Must be cool


Just curious, what do they put in the locomotive to ballast it? metal weights? That's interesting I never knew that
Morocco is the 1st customer of Prima 2. We bought 20 bo-bo (4 axles).

Nobody else bought them yet, including co-co (6 axles).
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 07:27 AM   #111
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PRIMA EL 9600 C (9600 kW) designed by Alstom for the Chinese railways




http://conferinte.club-feroviar.ro/o...agu_Alstom.pdf
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Last edited by Ωρτimuş; October 25th, 2010 at 03:06 PM.
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 09:47 AM   #112
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holy lord ^ that looks like a monster

I was gonna ask if European railways had bought any but it might not be possible since at 150 tonnes they have a 25 tonne axle load.. unless there were some special lines.
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 12:19 PM   #113
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It says in the info that the co-co version weigh up to 135 tons, where did you get 150 tons from?

Another thing about the Prima II is that it have less tractive effort than I-Ore (550 kN vs. 700 kN), sure it have more power but I-Ore can start a heavier train, could have something with that the I-Ore trains weigh 180 ton each
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 01:32 PM   #114
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Quote:
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holy lord ^ that looks like a monster

I was gonna ask if European railways had bought any but it might not be possible since at 150 tonnes they have a 25 tonne axle load.. unless there were some special lines.
135 tons
6 axles
22,5 per axle

European railway max specification is 17 tons per axle.
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 04:24 PM   #115
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The new ALP 45 is a diesel electric locomotive [...]

Here is this awesome beast

Just a small comment:
It's not "diesel electric", but dual diesel AND electric-powered. This one is for Agence Metropolitaine de Transport in Montreal, for their new line up to the country, but which goes through an electrified tunnel, hence the choice.
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 04:36 PM   #116
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135 tons
6 axles
22,5 per axle

European railway max specification is 17 tons per axle.
Not it isn't. The European standard is 22.5 tons for mixed mainlines. Lines that are (re)build for mixed use are build to allow 25t or even 30t axle loads.

A limit of 17t is only set on lines that are passenger only.
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 04:51 PM   #117
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Electrification is planned and other network upgrades.
And that is the best summary of the North American passenger rail services.
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 04:56 PM   #118
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The horn and the engine sound of the Prima II BoBo, (Meknes railstation, Morocco)

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Old October 23rd, 2010, 08:24 PM   #119
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And that is the best summary of the North American passenger rail services.
Ummm , most Passenger services are already upgraded. Also all of those lines are planned.

http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en...6fa9f0421a&z=6
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Old October 23rd, 2010, 10:17 PM   #120
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Not it isn't. The European standard is 22.5 tons for mixed mainlines. Lines that are (re)build for mixed use are build to allow 25t or even 30t axle loads.

A limit of 17t is only set on lines that are passenger only.
Ok, thank you for the comment.

I thought that 17t was the max for all trains.
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