THE BELGIAN DREAM

[Mr Bricks]

Should we be surprised by the fact that there are stripmalls and suburban sprawl in Belgium? This can be found all over Europe.

[joshsam]

yeah yeah we all know about Brazil .for.ce.br., but that's not what this topic is about is it?

[joshsam]

Originally Posted by Mr Bricks

Should we be surprised by the fact that there are stripmalls and suburban sprawl in Belgium? This can be found all over Europe.

No you should not because you live in one of the countries with the most Suburban sprawl....

[Mr Bricks]

^Most people over here live in apartment buildings. Anyway, all I´m saying is that Belgium is not unique in this sense.

[.for.ce.br]

Originally Posted by joshsam

yeah yeah we all know about Brazil .for.ce.br., but that's not what this topic is about is it?

Just trying to compare the suburban "American dream" and "Belgian dream" with the Brazilian "condo dream".

[joshsam]

Originally Posted by .for.ce.br

Just trying to compare the suburban "American dream" and "Belgian dream" with the Brazilian "condo dream".

fair enough

[joshsam]

Originally Posted by Mr Bricks

^Most people over here live in apartment buildings. Anyway, all I´m saying is that Belgium is not unique in this sense.

But is this like the ultimate dream also your country?

[joshsam]

Earlier someone said something about subdivisions. Belgium rarely has subdivisions. Everything is build like a giant web or organic structure. Decades of neglect about zoning has turned the Belgium Landscape into this.

[U]Around bigger cities[/U]

[joshsam]

Countryside or what's left of it....


Heavy populated Regions in Flanders:



image hosted on flickr


Less heavy populated region:

image hosted on flickr

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by .for.ce.br

It's so strange to a Brazilian to hear it! Highrise apartments are very prestigous here at least since the 80's, when the upper middle class condos with 14 floors and above started to spread all over the biggest cities.

In most western countries highrises are considered 'Option B' when you can't afford a detached home in the area you want to live in. In the city core, houses are sometimes scarce or well beyond most people's budget. A highrise is the only option.

[.for.ce.br]

Brazil is an exception among the western countries...

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by .for.ce.br

Brazil is an exception among the western countries...

Your assertions, IMHO, are only a guess. There are no hard data or empirical evidence to support this quite strong argument. Maybe it is an excusable case of self-selection and selective perception. Brazilian cities are expanding both vertically and horizontally, with a bright spot on horizontal gated communities catering for the rich and the upper-middle class families, for instance. The fact that some neighborhoods are getting their 1 or 2-story level buildings replaced by high-rises of 100m doesn't imply that there is a wide, tilted preference towards apartments in multi-story buildings, as population growth, city footprint enlargement and population disperse processes might be all playing a role.

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by isaidso

In most western countries highrises are considered 'Option B' when you can't afford a detached home in the area you want to live in. In the city core, houses are sometimes scarce or well beyond most people's budget. A highrise is the only option.

==============================

As for the Belgian houses, they look nice. If only here in Netherlands it were easier to build a house as you want in your plot of land... north of the border, it is prohibitively expensive to build your own house, you need to clear much red tape to get permits for doing it. Even if you buy a farm and wants to deactivate farming activities to use the estate only as a countryside residence you will face enormous hurdles with the multi-layer clogged planning process here.

I wish Belgium exported to us the trend of more completely free-standing houses instead of the typical Dutch semi-detached house which, for capriciousness of planners, usually share walls with neighboring houses.

The relatively easiness to convert farm plots into residences in Belgium is reflected by the path of growth of new housing areas in respect to Netherlands.

[.for.ce.br]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

Your assertions, IMHO, are only a guess. There are no hard data or empirical evidence to support this quite strong argument. Maybe it is an excusable case of self-selection and selective perception. Brazilian cities are expanding both vertically and horizontally, with a bright spot on horizontal gated communities catering for the rich and the upper-middle class families, for instance. The fact that some neighborhoods are getting their 1 or 2-story level buildings replaced by high-rises of 100m doesn't imply that there is a wide, tilted preference towards apartments in multi-story buildings, as population growth, city footprint enlargement and population disperse processes might be all playing a role.

Man, I LIVE in Brazil, I'm Brazilian, I know what I'm saying. Almost 80% of the Brazilian urban middle class living in the 7 biggest Metro Areas of the country live in apartment buildings with 10 or more floors. The huge majority of the young people from the urban middle class go live in an apartment when get married. A marriage is a synonym of leaving the highrise condo of your parents and buying or renting an apartment in another highrise condo. That's the explanation of the huge density of the Brazilian cities. The majority of the towers are not commercial, but residential.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

==============================

As for the Belgian houses, they look nice. If only here in Netherlands it were easier to build a house as you want in your plot of land... north of the border, it is prohibitively expensive to build your own house, you need to clear much red tape to get permits for doing it. Even if you buy a farm and wants to deactivate farming activities to use the estate only as a countryside residence you will face enormous hurdles with the multi-layer clogged planning process here.

I wish Belgium exported to us the trend of more completely free-standing houses instead of the typical Dutch semi-detached house which, for capriciousness of planners, usually share walls with neighboring houses.

The relatively easiness to convert farm plots into residences in Belgium is reflected by the path of growth of new housing areas in respect to Netherlands.

The capriciousness of people like yourself will one day spell the end of wildlife in Europe.

Of course, you may not believe native wildlife enriches anyone's life..

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by .for.ce.br

Man, I LIVE in Brazil, I'm Brazilian, I know what I'm saying. Almost 80% of the Brazilian urban middle class living in the 7 biggest Metro Areas of the country live in apartment buildings with 10 or more floors.

Nope. In any case: would you mind waiting for the decennial census be completed by IBGE, hence we'll have figures? In other case: you restricted your sample as to what wouldn't amount to 10 to 15% of Brazilian population.

The huge majority of the young people from the urban middle class go live in an apartment when get married. A marriage is a synonym of leaving the highrise condo of your parents and buying or renting an apartment in another highrise condo. That's the explanation of the huge density of the Brazilian cities. The majority of the towers are not commercial, but residential.

What about the explosion in horizontal gated-communities? Brazilian cities dense? Wishful thinking. They have dense neighborhoods, but overall they are not dense like any Asian metropolis.

=========================

The amount of land used by urban + transportation infrastructure is not that high. I don't have a figure for Belgium, in NL I know build-up areas account for 18% of total (land) area, and that already is a quite high figure. So we have plenty of space to expand.

[.for.ce.br]

You really don't know the Brazilian cities... Try spend 5 days in São Paulo to learn something about it. Or you can try Wikimapia:

http://wikimapia.org/#lat=-23.569277...2&z=18&l=9&m=b

Horizontal gated-communities? Yes, there are a few some... Specially in the State of São Paulo. But nothing compared with the "condo forests" spreading in the cities...

[Mr Bricks]

Originally Posted by joshsam

But is this like the ultimate dream also your country?

Not sure. Many people prefer to have a big apartment in the city centre instead. I recently read that people are fleeing the new sprawly suburbs and moving back close to the city. Living in low-density, depressive suburbia with poor transportation links is definitely not everyones cup of tea.

[niterider]

Originally Posted by Suburbanist

==============================
If only here in Netherlands it were easier to build a house as you want in your plot of land... north of the border, it is prohibitively expensive to build your own house.... for capriciousness of planners, usually share walls with neighboring houses.
.

Planning systems do affect the value of land but are only one of a comibation of factors. In the Randstad there is so little room surely unless you want to go upwards? houses grouped together with shared walls are a more efficient use of space.

Ideally yes people prefer a detached house and I don't blame them but just being able to built somewhere because its 'your' piece of land would result in haphazard development patters. In Ireland people can more or less build a house seemingly anywhere in the countryside and trust me you cannot drive down any rural area now without seeing modern housing scattered all over the place bearing no relation to the local vernacular. Even if that doesn't concern you, the cost of such development patterns should - it costs the government much more in providing basic services like schooling and mail....and we all know who funds government....

For all people like to slate American suburban sprawl at least much of it, before the cul-de sac era, was in well planned streets with service provision etc. Best of urban facilities with rural house sizes.

[Suburbanist]

Originally Posted by niterider

Planning systems do affect the value of land but are only one of a comibation of factors. In the Randstad there is so little room surely unless you want to go upwards? houses grouped together with shared walls are a more efficient use of space.

Yes, but even new developments in Flevoland, Frysland or Overijssel follow the same pattern of rowhouses. I don't think twice before saying the new VINEX, with all their controlled-planned constructions, is by far and large the best-looking modern national-wide housing construction project in Europe comparing to other similar schemes housing people at the same densities.

However, in name or architectural harmony and neatness, you makes the right to build your own house very expensive to put in practice. Sure, the land tenure associated rights in Netherlands operate in a very unique fashion, but in any case I don't see how they should be so cautious about extending the footprint of cities in - say - Nijmegen or Leeuwarden as they need to be in Rotterdam or Den Haag.

Ideally yes people prefer a detached house and I don't blame them but just being able to built somewhere because its 'your' piece of land would result in haphazard development patters. In Ireland people can more or less build a house seemingly anywhere in the countryside and trust me you cannot drive down any rural area now without seeing modern housing scattered all over the place bearing no relation to the local vernacular. Even if that doesn't concern you, the cost of such development patterns should - it costs the government much more in providing basic services like schooling and mail....and we all know who funds government....

This wouldn't happen in Netherlands because rural land is very expensive here, as agricultural productivity of Dutch farms is the highest in Europe and a sizable chunk of the rural land is dedicated to high-value activities like flower cultivation, intensive sheep farms etc. So the idea of buying a small farm, putting the land to rest and using it as a giant residential land plot would not be accessible for anyone but the rich.

For all people like to slate American suburban sprawl at least much of it, before the cul-de sac era, was in well planned streets with service provision etc. Best of urban facilities with rural house sizes.

Cul-de-sac are over-bashed. Many neighborhoods and entire cities in Netherlands (Houten, for instance, comes to mind) are build in patterns that resemble Cul-de-sac for vehicular traffic, though there are usually alleys for pedestrian traffic.