THE BELGIAN DREAM

[niterider]

Yes I've visited the Leidsche Rijn Vinex and I thought it was very impressive. I take your point on the different pressure to efficiently utilise agricultural land in the Netherlands.

With regard to cul-de-sacs I don't mean them per se but rather the type found in North America where they are so far apart that there is 'wilderness' in between them. Of course some people like this and there is abundand land to allow for it in some parts of the world but there's a differnece between 'comfortable' suburban space and almost rural -like patterns which still demand urban service provision.

I do agree that self-build should be made easier though - people take more pride in their own home if they build it themselves and as long as design regulations etc are adhered to, it can result in a much more diverse and organic built environment than bland mass-produced housing stock.

[Maria Theresa]

Interesting to notice that the houses in Belgium are quite small. See the difference between my former neighbourhood in Sao Paulo and the ones in Belgium:

Sao Paulo





Belgium

[joshsam]

Uhum the houses I posted are middle class. I can post much much bigger houses if you want....

You don't have to post upper class houses from Brazil and compaire em with Belgian middle class, that's just stupid. Post middle class Brazilian housing to compaire...
And yes Belgian houses might be smaller because it like 10x more expensive to build here than in Brazil....
That said I doubt that middle class housing in Brazil looks that good as the Belgian one...
Feel free to prove me wrong

[Jonesy55]

Lol @ those 'typical Brazilian homes'

[joshsam]

To compaire with your Brazilian upper class housing:
Belgian upper class housing:

[Maria Theresa]

Originally Posted by joshsam

To compaire with your Brazilian upper class housing:
Belgian upper class housing:

Nice views of Belgium. Where are those?

Some upper class housing in Rio:

Next to the beach:





Next to golf estates:



In the middle of the tropical rain forest:

[joshsam]

Originally Posted by Maria Theresa

Nice views of Belgium. Where are those?

These in particular are in the forests surrounding the city of Antwerp...
But to go back in to the middle class, what did you wanna proof showing Brazilian upper class next to Belgian middle class? Ofcourse the houses are bigger...

This is Brazilian middle class:




http://img1.photographersdirect.com/.../pd1950933.jpg

That's something differend than you posted...

[Maria Theresa]

Originally Posted by joshsam

These in particular are in the forests surrounding the city of Antwerp...
But to go back in to the middle class, what did you wanna proof showing Brazilian upper class next to Belgian middle class? Ofcourse the houses are bigger...

This is Brazilian middle class:




http://img1.photographersdirect.com/.../pd1950933.jpg

That's something differend than you posted...

No, those pics you posted are of housing projetcs built by the government of Lula for the lower classes, called "Minha casa, Minha vida" , something like "My house, My life".

They can be for lower middle class as well.

[Maria Theresa]

Originally Posted by joshsam

Uhum the houses I posted are middle class. I can post much much bigger houses if you want....

You don't have to post upper class houses from Brazil and compaire em with Belgian middle class, that's just stupid. Post middle class Brazilian housing to compaire...
And yes Belgian houses might be smaller because it like 10x more expensive to build here than in Brazil....
That said I doubt that middle class housing in Brazil looks that good as the Belgian one...
Feel free to prove me wrong

Some middle class housing in Curitiba:

Pics by forumer ABNeto. Link: http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...1208083&page=4









They look pretty decent to me.

[joshsam]

They look ok

Well the housing projects are way better than favella's....

[Sniper]

Originally Posted by joshsam

They look ok

Well the housing projects are way better than favella's....

Less than 10% of brazilians live in favelas, and they don't represent the typical middle-class.

About the Brazilian Dream, living in a well-located apartment is not a trend today among upper classes. People just want to live the American Dream too. Today, I believe that new suburban projects compete equally to new high-rise projects. Basically, the increase of car use and the deterioration of the cities' central districts might expel people from the dense parts of the biggest cities. Furthermore, the cities are not growing as fast as they grew in the 80's, when high-rises were a need. The cities couldn't be expanded horizontally, because neither public transport nor individual transport (and including the related infrastructure) were avaliable.

"A brazilian lives in an apartament because it's safer". This idea is outdated. Today, suburban condos are as safe as high-rises, because they usually are closed and protected by security personnel, cameras, etc. And if they're not closed to external access, all this stuff is set individually. IMO security is the difference between the American (Belgian) Dream and these new "planned neighborhoods" to upper mid-class brazilian citzens. And that's sad, they're even more closed to the external world and away from the city than the american and belgian counterparts.

[joshsam]

I read somewhere favella population today is about 26%, coming from over 30% before 2000....

BTW: 97% of Rio’s favelas houses have TV, 94% have refrigerator, 59% DVD player, 55% mobile phone, 48% washing machine and 12% have a computer, not bad for a favella...

But this is all off topic...

[Maria Theresa]

Originally Posted by joshsam

I read somewhere favella population today is about 26%, coming from over 30% before 2000....

BTW: 97% of Rio’s favelas houses have TV, 94% have refrigerator, 59% DVD player, 55% mobile phone, 48% washing machine and 12% have a computer, not bad for a favella...

But this is all off topic...

Funny to see that europeans always imagine Brazil being much worse than it actually is.

[joshsam]

We don't....
You Brazilians see it better....

[Maria Theresa]

Originally Posted by joshsam

We don't....
You Brazilians see it better....

Do we?

Because what I see here is this:

(pictures by forumer Marcio Machado, link http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showth...&highlight=rio)



image hosted on flickr


image hosted on flickr






Wouldn´t change those suburbs above, in Rio, for any of those in Belgium, including the upper class ones.

[joshsam]

Stop spamming this tread with stupid pictures of Brazilians villa's while you know as good as I do that the majority of Brazil people still live in shit tiny houses that are build without a proper sewer and don't have a garden exept for the half-paved street in front of it.
5% of the total area of Brazil cities look like the pictures you post! Do you think I'm stupid?

Go on and and believe anything you want about your country and please stop spamming a tread that goes about "the Belgian Dream" and not "Villa's in Brazil"

[GENIUS LOCI]

Can I suggest to open an 'own thread' with Brazilian hosing as topic?

Here we are OT

[Yuri S Andrade]

Originally Posted by joshsam

I read somewhere favella population today is about 26%, coming from over 30% before 2000....

BTW: 97% of Rio’s favelas houses have TV, 94% have refrigerator, 59% DVD player, 55% mobile phone, 48% washing machine and 12% have a computer, not bad for a favella...

But this is all off topic...

That's the Rio's figures. In São Paulo metro area, it's lower than 10%. The mid-sized cities (500k - 1 million) of São Paulo state and southern Brazil states, there are no favelas at all.

Originally Posted by joshsam

Stop spamming this tread with stupid pictures of Brazilians villa's while you know as good as I do that the majority of Brazil people still live in shit tiny houses that are build without a proper sewer and don't have a garden exept for the half-paved street in front of it.
5% of the total area of Brazil cities look like the pictures you post! Do you think I'm stupid?

Go on and and believe anything you want about your country and please stop spamming a tread that goes about "the Belgian Dream" and not "Villa's in Brazil"

Well, I must say Maria Theresa behaviour is quite bizarre to say the least.

But, calm down: majority of Brazil people do NOT live in shit tiny houses. Proper sewer? In my state (11 million people), for example, virtually 100% of the houses get sewer.

This kind of generalization, is fool as to suggest all Belgians live in houses like the Brugge old district ones. We are part of this huge urbanism forum, so I think it's a nice idea to abandon these misconceptions. Brazil is not this fantasy place created by Mary T, but it's not this hell painted by you.

[joshsam]

In Londrina there aren't any favella's indeed, but vast majority of the houses do look tiny, from air and from pictures taken on the street, they have 50% of time no garden are build super close together (even your Londrina) Exept for the small area's where houses are suddenly big and have a swimming pool.

[Jonesy55]

Originally Posted by Maria Theresa

Do we?

Because what I see here is this:

I think you just proved Josham's point for him, if those images are all that you see, then you certainly do have a very blinkered view and you do see Brazil in a way that is not realistic.

Brazil is a great country, why try to ruin its reputation by seeming to confirm the predjudices held by the rest of the world about the upper class elites there being Marie Antoinette wannabes detached from reality?