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Old October 30th, 2010, 06:23 PM   #81
dizee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Hughes View Post
I thought it was such.... I seem to remember there was quite a difference between Red and Green average line speeds too, and have long since pondered the genuine effectiveness of trams, especially in the city-centre sections, and noted that Luas' interaction with the city centre was pretty short and direct. I have worked on a few tram systems in design/Installation, and am yet to be convinced by them.
The original plans were for the Luas system to go underground in the city centre. However (a new) government meddling put an end to that (and we ended up with 2 unconnected lines...). The trams do work well but I think in hindsight more capacity was needed. Before the Luas was built there were loads of sensationalist articles about how nobody would use it, particularly in The Irish Times which is supposedly "the paper of record." Of course it then went and reached the passenger levels for 5 years time in 1 year and the red-line trams had to be extended.

The relevance of this? The Irish Times is pushing an anti-metro agenda which sounds awfully familiar. Now I can understand concerns about cost but it can't really be argued that it would be successful.

Anyway there is an excellent summary here - What is Metro North?

Including this excellent map that shows just how much of the city the Metro north line would serve (including the CBD, a major hospital, a university, the airport...).
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Old January 10th, 2011, 05:59 PM   #82
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Dublin has returned tram (LUAS) in 2004 after closing in fifties.

The so called Metro is actually an underground light rail, also called light metro, but not actual metro.
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Old January 16th, 2011, 10:56 PM   #83
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Here I’m posting some photos of old tram network. Can anyone say the names of the places in Dublin? Are those places now served again by tram?



Last edited by Ashis Mitra; January 16th, 2011 at 11:02 PM.
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Old January 16th, 2011, 10:58 PM   #84
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Why Dublin closed its tram network, and why they returned again?
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Old January 17th, 2011, 02:19 PM   #85
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Dublin has 2 tram lines, and they're not connected with each other, that's an epic fail, compared to it's network in the past
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Old January 18th, 2011, 06:48 PM   #86
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Recently I’ve confused between the tram-light rail-metro-suburban train terms in Dublin.

www.lrta.org & www.subways.net says that Dublin will build a metro network, but www.urbanrail.net says it would a light metro. www.lrta.org says the violetish vehicle is modern tram, but www.subways.net & www.urbanrail.net says it is light rail. Also, many people say that green vehicles are metro. I totally get confused.
Which definition is true? Urban rail fans of Dublin please clear this.

My word is violetish vehicles are tram, & lime vehicles are suburban train (DART). Am I right?

My opinion is –
1) LUAS is a modern tram system. Dublin closed its previous tramway during forties, and later returned in 2004. It is tram because almost half part is street running and the rest is on reserved track, especially route 1 (green line) is using a former suburban rail alignment. Perhaps it is the only tram network of world, which has two completely physically separate lines (red & green). Red line uses two routes. Although in future there is a plan to extend route 1 to connect with route 2 & 3. There also many new routes projected and extensions – towards Broom bridge, Bray Daly, Fassore, Saggart, and Newcastle Road.
2) DART is the main suburban rail system. It uses EMU train service to suburbs of Dublin. Although a non-electrified system also exists from Heuston. It is planning to build an underground section under Dublin City Centre. NOTE: - IT IS NOT METRO, BECAUSE IT WILL USE SAME INFRASTRUCTURE & SAME ROLLING STOCK AS IT RUNS ON CURRENT SURFACE LINES.
3) METRO is totally confusing. It is actually a light rail system, which will run partly underground, and completely on reserved track on surface. The rolling stocks will not wide like metro cars or DART, rather narrow type like tram, but longer & stronger than tramway. NOTE: - IT IS NOT METRO, BECAUSE IT WILL USE NARROW ROLLING STOCKS. But due to narrow cars, it is also called light metro.
4) Wikipedia says that in future, the tram route 1 (green line) may be change to light rail or metro, and after conversion it will extend to underground portion in city centre. Is it true? If yeas, There will be two types of underground service, one is suburban train & another is light rail.

I’ve some questions (arose after viewing some websites). Please answer one by one –
1) Is there a plan to convert the route 1 (green line) to light rail or metro in future?
2) Will the route 1 (green line) be extended to Broom bridge, Bray Daly and Fassore?
3) Will there be new tram routes to Saggart and Newcastle Road?
4) Is Dublin planning electrifying the remaining disconnected rail line runs southwest from Heuston Station as far as Kildare?
5) When the construction of MODERN TRAMWAYS started, were the previous tram tracks (closed in forties) discovered under the road surface in the time of digging?
6) Is there any remaining of previous tram network in Dublin?
7) Why Dublin closed its tram, and why again returned?

At last a latest news -
Luas Cherry wood, the EUR 300m extension of Luas Green Line from Sandy ford to Brides Glen, is to open on Saturday the 16th of October at 11am.
The Railway Procurement Agency said the opening of the 7.5 km of new line will be marked by a free weekend of travel on Saturday 16th and Sunday 17th October 2010. There will also be a number of free events along the line. For details visit the RPA web site.
The Cherry wood extension almost doubles the initial length of the Luas Green line from St Stephen's Green to Sandy ford It will have 12 stops between Sandy ford and Brides Glen, about 1km beyond Cherry wood The line will carry an extra 2m passengers a year with an overall journey time from Cherry wood to St Stephen's Green of about 40 minutes.

Some links, for plenty photos of Dublin tram. Either click or paste to the address bar of your browser.
http://www.trampicturebook.de/tram/a...unis/index.htm
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ie/trams/pix.html
http://www.lrta.info/photos/IRL.html
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Old January 18th, 2011, 07:26 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashis Mitra View Post
Recently Iíve confused between the tram-light rail-metro-suburban train terms in Dublin.

www.lrta.org & www.subways.net says that Dublin will build a metro network, but www.urbanrail.net says it would a light metro. www.lrta.org says the violetish vehicle is modern tram, but www.subways.net & www.urbanrail.net says it is light rail. Also, many people say that green vehicles are metro. I totally get confused.
Which definition is true? Urban rail fans of Dublin please clear this.

My word is violetish vehicles are tram, & lime vehicles are suburban train (DART). Am I right?

My opinion is Ė
1) LUAS is a modern tram system. Dublin closed its previous tramway during forties, and later returned in 2004. It is tram because almost half part is street running and the rest is on reserved track, especially route 1 (green line) is using a former suburban rail alignment. Perhaps it is the only tram network of world, which has two completely physically separate lines (red & green). Red line uses two routes. Although in future there is a plan to extend route 1 to connect with route 2 & 3. There also many new routes projected and extensions Ė towards Broom bridge, Bray Daly, Fassore, Saggart, and Newcastle Road.
2) DART is the main suburban rail system. It uses EMU train service to suburbs of Dublin. Although a non-electrified system also exists from Heuston. It is planning to build an underground section under Dublin City Centre. NOTE: - IT IS NOT METRO, BECAUSE IT WILL USE SAME INFRASTRUCTURE & SAME ROLLING STOCK AS IT RUNS ON CURRENT SURFACE LINES.
3) METRO is totally confusing. It is actually a light rail system, which will run partly underground, and completely on reserved track on surface. The rolling stocks will not wide like metro cars or DART, rather narrow type like tram, but longer & stronger than tramway. NOTE: - IT IS NOT METRO, BECAUSE IT WILL USE NARROW ROLLING STOCKS. But due to narrow cars, it is also called light metro.
4) Wikipedia says that in future, the tram route 1 (green line) may be change to light rail or metro, and after conversion it will extend to underground portion in city centre. Is it true? If yeas, There will be two types of underground service, one is suburban train & another is light rail.

Iíve some questions (arose after viewing some websites). Please answer one by one Ė
1) Is there a plan to convert the route 1 (green line) to light rail or metro in future?
2) Will the route 1 (green line) be extended to Broom bridge, Bray Daly and Fassore?
3) Will there be new tram routes to Saggart and Newcastle Road?
4) Is Dublin planning electrifying the remaining disconnected rail line runs southwest from Heuston Station as far as Kildare?
5) When the construction of MODERN TRAMWAYS started, were the previous tram tracks (closed in forties) discovered under the road surface in the time of digging?
6) Is there any remaining of previous tram network in Dublin?
7) Why Dublin closed its tram, and why again returned?

At last a latest news -
Luas Cherry wood, the EUR 300m extension of Luas Green Line from Sandy ford to Brides Glen, is to open on Saturday the 16th of October at 11am.
The Railway Procurement Agency said the opening of the 7.5 km of new line will be marked by a free weekend of travel on Saturday 16th and Sunday 17th October 2010. There will also be a number of free events along the line. For details visit the RPA web site.
The Cherry wood extension almost doubles the initial length of the Luas Green line from St Stephen's Green to Sandy ford It will have 12 stops between Sandy ford and Brides Glen, about 1km beyond Cherry wood The line will carry an extra 2m passengers a year with an overall journey time from Cherry wood to St Stephen's Green of about 40 minutes.

Some links, for plenty photos of Dublin tram. Either click or paste to the address bar of your browser.
http://www.trampicturebook.de/tram/a...unis/index.htm
http://www.railfaneurope.net/pix/ie/trams/pix.html
http://www.lrta.info/photos/IRL.html
Okay, I'll try to deal with this as best I can.

First of all, Luas is a light rail system - it runs on-street in the city centre (like a tram) and is segregated in much of the suburbs which allows it to go faster ('Luas' means 'speed' in Irish). There are currently two unconnected lines, but there are plans to join them up and build more lines eventually.

DART is one of the lines of the Dublin Commuter Rail system. There are six Commuter lines, and the DART is one that runs along the coast. It is the most important and the only one that is fully electrified. It would be like the S-Bahn in German/Austrian/Swiss cities or S-tog in Copenhagen, in that it is more frequent than a normal commuter train. There are plans to electrify the other lines and increase capacity/frequency to turn them into DART lines - another part of this project includes linking Heuston Station with the rest of the railway network in the city through the DART Underground tunnel.

Metro is basically a fully segregated Luas, or 'light-metro'. It will run underground in the city centre and at the Airport, and above-ground or on-ground (but segregated) in the suburbs. It will not run across any roads. Luas vehicles will be compatible with the tracks. It is based off the Porto Metro.

Now for the questions:
1) Eventually, yes. But probably not for 10-20 years or more.
2) Yes, that's the plan.
3) These are under construction and due to open this year.
4) Yes, as part of the overall DART Underground project.
5) I'm not sure, but even if they were they were of a different gauge (I think).
6) I'm not sure, but I doubt it. They all ran on major roads and would have been a hazard to keep.
7) The trams were closed because of competition from buses, which were seen as cheaper and more efficient. They were brought back (in the form of light-rail) as Dublin began to suffer bad traffic congestion in the 1990s due to major population growth. More can be found here.

Some websites you might find interesting:

http://www.rpa.ie/en/Pages/default.aspx Railway Procurement Agency - responsible for building light-rail (Luas and Metro) lines.
http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/dart_underground.asp Irish Rail - responsible for the DART Underground project.
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Old January 18th, 2011, 08:12 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashis Mitra View Post
Here Iím posting some photos of old tram network. Can anyone say the names of the places in Dublin? Are those places now served again by tram?

Wow there's a statue you won't see nowadays. (William of Orange)

This is College Green, there are no trams there today but the Line BXD to connect the Green and Red lines will go along the end there and the proposed Lucan line will follow that path if it ever gets built.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashis Mitra View Post
That is O'Connell Street. Again there are no trams running north-south for now but there will be as part of the BXD line, there are trams running west-east along Abbey Street though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapter View Post
Dublin has 2 tram lines, and they're not connected with each other, that's an epic fail, compared to it's network in the past
This is down to stupid government meddling, the plan was ready to go by 1997 with both lines connected but then the FF government came in and put the central bit under "review". So in the end it wasn't built.

The thing is, we are very good at discussing these things but political interference stops things getting done. The DART Underground was first proposed in 1975, now it's set for 2018 at earliest. The Metro - which is a metro by definition because it's fully segregated, gauge doesn't actually matter - was proposed since at least 2000.

Of course in retrospect it was a huge mistake to close all the tram lines but what can we do.
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Old January 19th, 2011, 12:35 AM   #89
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What with the financial crisis in Ireland, have any of the rail transit projects, such as the DART underground or Luas been affected?
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Old January 19th, 2011, 01:24 AM   #90
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What with the financial crisis in Ireland, have any of the rail transit projects, such as the DART underground or Luas been affected?
Well, at the moment the Metro is going ahead as planned. The other two major projects (DART Underground and Luas BXD) are continuing with their plans up to and including planning permission and will be built whenever funding becomes available. Other Luas projects are delayed for the foreseeable future but will be looked at again whenever the bigger projects are built.
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Old January 23rd, 2011, 11:36 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by Catmalojin View Post
Okay, I'll try to deal with this as best I can.

First of all, Luas is a light rail system - it runs on-street in the city centre (like a tram) and is segregated in much of the suburbs which allows it to go faster ('Luas' means 'speed' in Irish). There are currently two unconnected lines, but there are plans to join them up and build more lines eventually.

DART is one of the lines of the Dublin Commuter Rail system. There are six Commuter lines, and the DART is one that runs along the coast. It is the most important and the only one that is fully electrified. It would be like the S-Bahn in German/Austrian/Swiss cities or S-tog in Copenhagen, in that it is more frequent than a normal commuter train. There are plans to electrify the other lines and increase capacity/frequency to turn them into DART lines - another part of this project includes linking Heuston Station with the rest of the railway network in the city through the DART Underground tunnel.

Metro is basically a fully segregated Luas, or 'light-metro'. It will run underground in the city centre and at the Airport, and above-ground or on-ground (but segregated) in the suburbs. It will not run across any roads. Luas vehicles will be compatible with the tracks. It is based off the Porto Metro.

Now for the questions:
1) Eventually, yes. But probably not for 10-20 years or more.
2) Yes, that's the plan.
3) These are under construction and due to open this year.
4) Yes, as part of the overall DART Underground project.
5) I'm not sure, but even if they were they were of a different gauge (I think).
6) I'm not sure, but I doubt it. They all ran on major roads and would have been a hazard to keep.
7) The trams were closed because of competition from buses, which were seen as cheaper and more efficient. They were brought back (in the form of light-rail) as Dublin began to suffer bad traffic congestion in the 1990s due to major population growth. More can be found here.

Some websites you might find interesting:

http://www.rpa.ie/en/Pages/default.aspx Railway Procurement Agency - responsible for building light-rail (Luas and Metro) lines.
http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/dart_underground.asp Irish Rail - responsible for the DART Underground project.
At first I'm giving you endless thanks for answering me. Thank you very much tramlover.

Iím also suggesting, like Lucan, new tramway should also run upto Howth & Dalkey.


Tram was on the same Abbey Street before 1949, and crossing in front of the white statue on Sackville Street. Compare with the previous 2nd photograph.


St. Stephenís Green terminus was used by former tram network.


This alignment near Harcourt Street was also served by old tram network.


This is in front of Trinity College. In future this place will be served by tram again. The current route 1 (green line) will come from St. Stephens Green to here by following old route. Then from here it will be single track now. Up track will go straight to current route 2 & 3 (red line), and down line will come out from the right street of this photo. A new route 5 to Newcastle Road will go to the left street of this photo. So in future, it will be again an important tram junction.


The road under the rail bridge was previously served by tram.

Last edited by Ashis Mitra; March 3rd, 2011 at 12:08 AM.
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Old January 25th, 2011, 06:27 PM   #92
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PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE OF DUBLIN TRAM

PAST – Dublin tram started as horse tram, and then steam tram. Finally it started as electric tram in 1896. By January 1901 the entire city system, which covered about 60 miles (97 km) to 66 miles (106 km), was electrified while the system has 280 trams including a special Directors tram which was used by William Martin Murphy among others to inspect the system . In 1911 the system had 330 trams.
Several extensions were made to the system over the next few years. The most notable were: Sandy mount via Ring send (March 1901), Bally bough (October 1900), the Whitehall extension (September 1903), Dar try (January 1905), Rialto (May 1905) and Lower Bag got Street (1906). The livery of the Dublin trams was blue and ivory, elaborately lined out.

Before World War One, express trams ran on the Dalkey and Howth lines each morning and evening, ordinary stopping cars changing track at designated places while the expresses passed. On the Dalkey line, the expresses ran non-stop between Merrion Square and Black rock among other facilities offered by the D.U.T.C. was the Parcels Express, which operated from 1883 to 1940, and a tramway freight service from 1909 to 1927. Dublin Corporation also used the tramways to move refuse trains from Stanley Street to Fairview between 1907 and 1927.
At its peak the system was known as technically innovative and was described in 1904 as "one of the most impressive in the world’’ and other cities from around the world would come to inspect it and its electric operation.

1918 saw the first line closure in the network of 54 route miles, College Green to Whitehall via Capel Street. In the same year, route numbers replaced the symbols, starting with 1 at Ring send and following the outer termini clockwise to 31 at Howth. Fifteen of the numbers still appear on buses running over former tramway routes.
The DUTC opened its first bus route in 1925, progressively replacing the trams until the closure of their last route, the No. 8 to Dalkey, on 10 July 1949. Notably the "Royal Commission on Transport, 1930" actively advised against trams and for their replacement with buses. At the time the DUTC had 113 trams remaining. The Hill of Howth Tramway was transferred to CI… in 1958 and closed on 31 May 1959. It was the last tram to run in Ireland until the Luas tram system opened in 2004.

Buses posed a serious threat to the trams from 1923 onwards. The Dublin and Lucan Electric Railway succumbed to competition in January 1925 at a time when the D.U.T.C. was itself seeking authority to operate buses. In return for getting bus-operating powers, the company took over the Lucan line and rebuilt it to the most modern standards. It reopened in 1928 with automatic light signaling and a fleet of new bogie standard trams running through to O'Connell Bridge. In 1928, the livery of the trams was changed to grey and white.

The Poolaphouca extension of the Dublin and Blessing ton closed in 1928. The line from Terenure struggled on until the end of 1932, when the D.U.T.C. Bath Avenue service (Route 4) also closed. Three of the vehicles were rebuilt as open-top double-decker for the Howth (31) route, joining twelve similar vehicles based at Clontarf Depot.

Abandonment began early in 1938 and, within three years, some 220 Leyland Titan double-deck buses had replaced a roughly equal number of trams. Only three tram routes now remained: 6/7/8 to Black rock, Dun Laoghaire and Dalkey, 14 to Dartry and 15 to Terenure.

On 31st October 1948, the last trams ran on the Dartry and Terenure lines. The Dalkey service closed on 9th July 1949, No. 252 being the last tram into Black rock Depot. The trams were quickly scrapped; most of the bodies being sold on for alternative use as holiday homes and farm shed.

After closure the system was still being discussed in the DŠil until at least 1960 when the issue of removal of the old tram tracks was raised.

There were 31 routes. It covers service to Nelson’s Pillar, Ring send, Sandy mount, Phoenix Park, Pembroke Township, Black rock, Kingstown, Dalkey, Donnybrook, Whitehall, Clonskea, Palmers ton Park, Clontarf Road, Pearse Rail Station, Dartry Road, Terenure, Rathfarnham, Drumcondra, Harold Cross, Lansdowne Road, Rialto, Glasnevin, Inchicore, Kingsbridge Rail Station, Harcourt Street Rail Station, Park Gate, Ballybough, O’Connell Bridge, Bachelors Walk, Lucan, Chapelizod, College Green, Dolly mount, & Howth. Just imagine how large the network was, and served almost all places in Dublin, as far as Lucan, Howth & Dalkey!!!

Around the city it is still possible to see buildings associated with the system such as the Black rock Depot (later the Mazda Europa Centre, now facing demolition), Dartry Depot, Clonskeagh Depot, Donnybrook Depot (now part of Donnybrook Bus Garage), Dalkey Yard (some track still in-situ), the Sandy mount Depot, the Marlborough Street Depot which still features the lettering DUTC or the Power House in Ring send, and other reminders of the system also exist. Meanwhile some trams are preserved in the National Museum of Ireland and the National Transport Museum of Ireland (at Howth Castle) and at the National Tramway Museum in the UK

PRESENT – After long 55 years, tram returned in Dublin, this time as a modern, high speed system. It is the first such system in the decades since the closure of the last of the Dublin tramways. This new network is almost 37 Km as for December 2010. The system has 66 trams.

There are 3 routes. It covers service to St. Stephens Green, Bride’s glen, Points village, Connolly Rail Station, & Tallaght. It is clear that this network is not dense in main city like the previous network, but extends as far as away to Tallaght & Bride’s Glen.

FUTURE –

There are many extensions planned.
Route 4 (branch of red line) will be opened soon to Saggart.
Route 1 will be extended to Broombridge crossing the route 2 & 3. This line is planned to open in December 2012.
Route 5 will go to Newcastle Road in December 2013.
Route 1 will be extended to BrayDaly in December 2015.
Route 6 (branch of green line) will go to Fassore in December 2015.
Route 7 will go from City Centre to Dundrum via Rathfarnham (opening date has still not finalized).

I’m proposing to start a heritage tram service on Dublin; using pre forties tram type, which once run in Dublin. That tram used trolley pole, and double decker. Current overhead wire system will allow trolley pole. It will be ideal on Sundays and national holidays, especially attractive for tourists. Such trams are preserved in some museums in Ireland.
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Old January 28th, 2011, 02:54 PM   #93
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Updated Metro West animation.

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Old January 29th, 2011, 12:21 AM   #94
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FOOLISH TRANSPORT AUTHORITY OF DUBLIN

Dublinís great tram network was closed in 1949 for some blunt reasons Ė

1) The advent of buses and large scale competition meant that buses often ran the same routes as the trams and would jump in front in order to [COLOR="Green"]"grab" customers.
Buses are still present in Dublin, even much more than before. Arenít they competing with tram now? If now tram can attract more people than bus, I think if Dublin Transport Authority should be patient, trams would sure survived, even defeat bus. Actually they started following other cities for withdrawing tram during forties.

2) While buses were able to move into Dublin's expanding hinterland quicker and at less cost that the trams.
Current tram network has expanded many long distances, like Tallaght & Brideís Glen, and the infrastructure is more expensive like bus (includes reserved track, masts, wires, stops, bridges etc.) But they are very popular for commuters than bus. Many long extensions are planned like Saggart, Broom Bridge, Bray Daly, Fassore, and Newcastle Road. If now they can re-make that costly infrastructure, why not past? Previous network was much ordinary than present. Actually they were lobbying the automobile industry, and the industry started marketing automobiles, like many cities around the world.

3) The belief that trams were outdated and old technology Meanwhile,
If tram is really outdated, why the transport authority returned it in Dublin? It clearly shows that outdated technology idea was completely fake.

If tram is really outdated, why the transport authority returned it in Dublin? It clearly shows that outdated technology idea was completely fake.

4) There was a belief that buses were cheaper to run than trams.
Although initial construction cost of tramway network is higher, but it is profitable for long term, because buses runs on diesel, which is being costly month by month over the world, and also decreasing from natureís storage. Diesel canít be made artificially, but electricity can make from various sources, like air, water, tide etc, so it is unlimited, and it is also pollution free.

5) The system was in a poor state of repair.
Many cities around the Europe, has maintained tram, struggling over World War 2, by investing seriously on track & rolling stocks. Even I live in Kolkata. India is poorer than Ireland, but my city has still a good tram network. When Dublin closed their tram in 1949, Kolkataís tram was its top state, both with income & service. So ďimpossible repairingĒ is just another lie.

Dublinís previous tram servived from 1896 to 1949 and closed for those fake reasons. Tram reopened in 2004. So are we sure that around 2057, Dublin will not again close its tram fore some updated closure reasons?
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Old January 29th, 2011, 02:00 AM   #95
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...

Think you should tone down the hyperbole a little. While the closure of tram lines is regrettable in hindsight, you have to look at the situation at the time. Dublin was half the size and buses could reach far more areas. Buses were emerging technologies that proved cheaper, easier, and more popular to run.

Dublin grew a lot however, and the limited capacity of buses made them increasingly inefficient. As traffic drastically increased in the city centre, it was obvious that we needed a modern transit system (relatively) independent of the clogged roads. Building modern tram lines (very different to what existed) gave the opportunity to see just how willing Dubliners are to make the switch to rail based transport on a larger scale, and make the city centre more pedestrian friendly. The success of the Luas has mostly convinced the government that continued investment is justified and necessary.

However, don't try to make it out that we're somehow pressing Ctrl-Z on the situation. The Luas is a significantly different system to what existed, and if we had never gotten rid of the old trams the lines would have needed to be closed for significant upgrade. Having been inside the old trams, they are more similar to a double decker bus than a Luas and ran on shared street.

They were not "fake" reasons, the planners just didn't have the kind of psychic-like foresight you seem to think they should have had.
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Old January 29th, 2011, 03:54 PM   #96
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Old January 29th, 2011, 11:09 PM   #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashis Mitra View Post
Dublinís previous tram servived from 1896 to 1949 and closed for those fake reasons. Tram reopened in 2004. So are we sure that around 2057, Dublin will not again close its tram fore some updated closure reasons?
I don't think they were all "fake reasons", though it wouldn't surprise me if the auto/petrol firms in Ireland probably exploited the difficulties of the old trams to the hilt to have them declared obsolete, as they did in the U.S., where our trams (we'd call them trolleys or streetcars) were typically replaced with buses (called "bustitution")... or nothing at all. I think it's very unlikely to happen again. I think people have learned from the mistakes of the great post-WW2 dismantlement of transit. We had the idea that cars and buses would solve all of our transportation issues. We've learned 60+ years down the line this isn't the case.

No country dismantled its trams like the United States (the only cities where they survived were San Francisco, Boston, and Philadelphia--in a very reduced state). My home city of Pittsburgh had a 600+ mile network until the mid-60's (http://www.mapsofpa.com/pitts/1959_1729.jpg), which was ripped out by shortsighted city officials (today, small vestiges of it survive as the city's light rail lines). Now our cities can't build light rail and streetcars fast enough. Washington D.C. is planning a large tram network for completion by the 2030's to complement our subway system.

I don't think you need to worry about Ireland. They're not going to make the same blunder twice.
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Old February 3rd, 2011, 10:28 PM   #98
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I agree, but buses are still present in Dublin, even much more than before. Aren’t they competing with tram now? If now tram can attract more people than bus, I think if Dublin Transport Authority should be patient, trams would sure survived, even defeat bus.

Many cities in Europe maintained their tram with step by step upgrading. If you look the grayscale photo of College green tram terminus, you see that trams were not much backdated than then model of DD buses & cars.

Even now Dublin is thinking returning tram again on that terminus, so it will again run on street surface on College Green. If now there will be no problem, why was then?

Dublin trams are using some parts of the old network. See photos posted above.
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Old February 4th, 2011, 12:13 AM   #99
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Trams were expensive and seen as a dying technology, buses were cheap and more flexible. They didn't have the benefit of hindsight and couldn't guess the capacity issues that would arise. The government had feck all money to support the network or plan for decades into the future, so it was cut for the same reason most heavy rail was. What existed before is largely irrelevant, as the Luas is a really different system for a significantly different city.
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Old February 4th, 2011, 01:21 AM   #100
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The Luas has indeed taken a fair share of passengers from the bus routes that serve those areas.

There is really nothing to worry about, most people recognises the future of Dublin's transport will have to be rail-based. Buses can only do so much, you can only add more up to a point when they start causing congestion in themselves.

Really the debate now is the priorities for investment. Stuff like the Lucan Luas and the Metro west line are likely to be postponed but probably will be built eventually. The Metro north and DART Underground should surely go ahead.

It is important to note that the Luas trams are essentially "premetro" and quite different to the old Dublin trams which were more like buses. Of course they should've kept more but there will be more in the future.

The decision to back buses is quite understandable considering how spread out Dublin city's growth was. If it had been concentrated and the centre densified it probably would be a different story. But building high-density there would have done serious damage to the architectural heritage (which was a little bit damaged anyway but not entirely).

Last edited by dizee; February 4th, 2011 at 01:22 AM. Reason: clarification ;)
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