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Old December 3rd, 2013, 03:40 AM   #2301
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Originally Posted by kunming tiger View Post
401 meters or 349 meters it's pretty tall for a SMALLER building. There are plenty of people on the planet who haven't even seen a building of that height including plenty in so called developed countries.
National development is not a function of real-estate. Even on a skyscraper fan site, it should not be conflated as such, especially in light of the staggering wealth inequalities that tend to accompany skyscraper development booms.
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Old December 3rd, 2013, 06:52 AM   #2302
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National development is not a function of real-estate. Even on a skyscraper fan site, it should not be conflated as such, especially in light of the staggering wealth inequalities that tend to accompany skyscraper development booms.
There is reality and there uis perception.

If you show some people in developed countries photos of modern high rise apartment buildings in China some of them will argue with you saying that's impossible for China to have modern buildings because China is a poor non developed country. If it is a poor non developed country then there must be no modern buildings' They make a connection between a high standard of living , modern housing with a high ;level of economic development.

You may argue that national development is not a function of real estate and you be correct in saying so but for a average Joe photos of modern buildings, infrastrucure and the like is tangible evidence of progress. Except for those people who argue that all photos of such things from China are fake part pf a conspiracy on the part of the communists to give off mis leading impressions of China, some sort of charade .

Most people are products of their environment that is they believe what they read or see on TV. Real or not is not relevant the most important thing is they believe it's real .


" A picture tells a thousand words"


National development is not a function of real estate? If the construction boom stopped or even slowed down in China would it effect the current development plans ? In the next twenty five years the government must find the means to house around 1 billion migrants along with the relevant infrastrucure etc. They are planning and building huge urban areas for that purpose.

If you want to start doing things in new ways then the best way to start is by questioning old rules.
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Old December 4th, 2013, 05:15 PM   #2303
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Well, most developed countries are stuck in the so called 20th century trap. Cell phnones and other gadgets aside, they look exactly the same as in the 90s. Very few non Asian countries are truly living the 21st century.
Countries are always dominated by the buildings built during the phase of development. What would be the point in replacing all the old buildings in the developed countries with newer ones when the old ones are still good and useable?

I think in 20-30 years we could say about all these Asian countries that thes are stuck in the 2010s-trap compared to countries that build up their infrastructure in 2040. Every country appears modern in the moment it builds up it's infrastructure but once this is finished, it ages.

The only way for a country's infrastructure to stay young would be to use shoddy and low quality construction which makes replacement every 20-30 years necessary. I have heard that this is a big problem in China, that buildings last only a few decades.
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Old December 5th, 2013, 10:53 PM   #2304
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I have heard that this is a big problem in China, that buildings last only a few decades.
Do you mean the shorter ones in the overcrowded villages? Because I've never heard that.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 02:50 AM   #2305
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Do you mean the shorter ones in the overcrowded villages? Because I've never heard that.
There is an article that was written only a few months ago that deals with these issues:

http://www.chinaeconomicreview.com/U...dations-Part-2

The article states that the average lifespan of a Chinese building is 35 years, according to property consultancy Cushman & Wakefield. That’s abysmal compared to the average 74 year life span of US buildings and 132 year lifespan of buildings in the UK.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 05:13 AM   #2306
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Countries are always dominated by the buildings built during the phase of development. What would be the point in replacing all the old buildings in the developed countries with newer ones when the old ones are still good and useable?

I think in 20-30 years we could say about all these Asian countries that thes are stuck in the 2010s-trap compared to countries that build up their infrastructure in 2040. Every country appears modern in the moment it builds up it's infrastructure but once this is finished, it ages.

The only way for a country's infrastructure to stay young would be to use shoddy and low quality construction which makes replacement every 20-30 years necessary. I have heard that this is a big problem in China, that buildings last only a few decades.

These are valid observations nobody is expecting countries to tear down buildings to build newer ones.

The last observation was valid up until a few years ago simply because the money wasn't there to build high quality buildings, aka state provided housung. With the end of the Iron Rice Bowl which was in effect a de facto social security net most of those old work units were shut down and their employees laid off so the economy became less centrally planned. That meant people could start up their own business or choose to live, work whereever they felt like. That opened up opportunities for people to increase their incomes and their standard of living. With risng disposable incomes came demand for higher quality products from the middle class including apartments and the like. Older accomodation was built for state employees at the expense of the SOE with no chance of that cost being recovered hence the low quality. Nowdays consumers have a choice and they expect value for money and can afford to pay for it. The chinese don;t believe in re inventing things a lot of the infrastrucure in China was built originally with the help of foreign firms esp telecommunications. The Cinese simply absorbed their tech .

As for the danger of their infrastructure falling apart thirty years into the future, any country's infrastructure that faces the amount of usage that the China does will need to be replaced . The volumes will grow to unbelievable scales even now the incomplete HRS system accounts for 10% of all rail passenger traffic which is millions per day the same for the expressways, airports and so on.

Whether it be automobile production, aviation, e commerce and so on there are so many joint ventures between foreign companines and local ones whereby the tech is transferred one way or the other to the local partner. HSR is an example of that they acquire something then modify it then re export it.

Even their buildings are designed by foreigners, what the Chinese lack in innovation they make up for in the ability to absorb or copy ideas then apply then.
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Old December 6th, 2013, 05:43 AM   #2307
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Originally Posted by Chrissib View Post
There is an article that was written only a few months ago that deals with these issues:

http://www.chinaeconomicreview.com/U...dations-Part-2

The article states that the average lifespan of a Chinese building is 35 years, according to property consultancy Cushman & Wakefield. That’s abysmal compared to the average 74 year life span of US buildings and 132 year lifespan of buildings in the UK.
Lets get something straight here just because you read something doesn;t mean it's true . I mean how would Wakefield and Cushman or Cushman and Wakefield possibly know the lifespans of buildings in China ? The existing database of buildings in China is woefully incomplete even my own embassy told me that they don;t have access to public databases in China so they can't cross reference documentation. I wouldn't take ANYTHING the Chinese publish at face value. Nevertheless lets assume that Cush and Wakefield are correct in their assumption and they know exactly when every buiding was built and demolished etc.

I could possibly beleive that lifespans of Chinese buildings might be shorter for the fact that urban renewal has meant older buildings have been demolished to make way for newer ones. Where I live is a classic example 50% of the buildings of twenty years ago have been demolished to rebuilt. Soaring land prices meant older buildings were removed to make way for higher and newer buildings. That's not a secret considering the economic boom especially in real estate it would be a surprise if that didn;t happen. Twenty years there were few cars manily belonging to the party so roads were narrow once car ownership became common roads had to be widened and extended and new roads put in so they cleared areas to do that. Whole areas have been demolished , razed to the ground eventually rebuilt.

With rapid urbanization the total supply of avaliable housing is not sufficient in urban areas even if it was possible to retain buildings in urban cores for 135 years you wouldn;t because they are taking up space valuable and cities have to go vertical because you can't keep expanding into farmland for obvious reasons. No urban planner in their right mind is going to suggest that we keep buildings intact for the next 1oo years or so.

Old neigbourhoods in Chinese cities were poorly planned, crowded, hard to access for cars and made poor use of avaliable space with zero green space. I mean community space for such activites as dancing was often the the street corner . Nowdays there is a trend to build up and include shopping malls, even cinemas and metros and parks etc in the newer areas. That means widespread demolition and reconstruction not only desirable not neccessary.

I wasn't here 132 years , 74 years even 35 years ago but I don't have to be to know that Cush and Wakefield claim that most of the buildings now were there in those times. They're right about that and thank god for it as well. I remember the first time I came and went to a wedding at the bride parents home , it was so small that the guests had to stand outside in the stairwell for the reception. A university now stands where that place used to be.

Stats are stats they will never convey accurately the on going situation on the ground. Stats are be interpreted in different ways but wisdom comes from insight and you don;t get that sitting in your office reading reports or memos press releases about the other side of the planet
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Old December 6th, 2013, 09:49 PM   #2308
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As I've said, mark my words. It won't get built
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Old December 7th, 2013, 01:58 AM   #2309
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John Lennon about Sky City:

The dream is over
What can I say?
The dream is over
Yesterday
I was the dream weaver
But now I'm reborn
I was the Walrus
But now I'm John
And so dear friends
You just have to carry on
The dream is over...

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Old December 7th, 2013, 03:40 AM   #2310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kunming tiger View Post
There is reality and there uis perception.

If you show some people in developed countries photos of modern high rise apartment buildings in China some of them will argue with you saying that's impossible for China to have modern buildings because China is a poor non developed country. If it is a poor non developed country then there must be no modern buildings' They make a connection between a high standard of living , modern housing with a high ;level of economic development.

You may argue that national development is not a function of real estate and you be correct in saying so but for a average Joe photos of modern buildings, infrastrucure and the like is tangible evidence of progress. Except for those people who argue that all photos of such things from China are fake part pf a conspiracy on the part of the communists to give off mis leading impressions of China, some sort of charade .

Most people are products of their environment that is they believe what they read or see on TV. Real or not is not relevant the most important thing is they believe it's real .


" A picture tells a thousand words"


National development is not a function of real estate? If the construction boom stopped or even slowed down in China would it effect the current development plans ? In the next twenty five years the government must find the means to house around 1 billion migrants along with the relevant infrastrucure etc. They are planning and building huge urban areas for that purpose.

If you want to start doing things in new ways then the best way to start is by questioning old rules.
China is still not a developed country. Nor is it near to being one. I have realized that conclusion not based on what I have seen on TV, but by having seen multiple objective statistical sources and drawing mu own conclusions based on individual analysis. China still has at least 15 years before it can be considered a developed country.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 07:31 AM   #2311
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China is still not a developed country. Nor is it near to being one. I have realized that conclusion not based on what I have seen on TV, but by having seen multiple objective statistical sources and drawing mu own conclusions based on individual analysis. China still has at least 15 years before it can be considered a developed country.
Define developed country? If you mean that every corner of the country then by definition you are right but parts of some of the developed countries I've lived in don't come close to Hong Kong, Macau even Taiwan though the Taiwan issue is a sensitive one.

I remember living and working in Taiwan and people used to sneer at the place for being under developed the same way they did to Korea , Japan and China. But the simple truth is China is neither totally developed nor non developed it's both. The countryside is third world while most cities are second world while a few are first world.

What the stats don't tell you is the reality and the reality is there is a super rich elite a huge well off middle class and around billion poor. That means BMW makes and sells more cars in China than in the EU. More people travel by HSR here anywhere else. It's called income disparity but all the stats don't tell you is that the honeless rate in China is extremely low because the state provides housing to families . Furthermore the per capita income is too low in their studies because a lot of people either are employed in the balck market and/or they are enaged in extra work their actual income is higher than estimated. There is no way in hell you could live in the cities on the estimated per capita income for most Chinese, the cost of living wouldn;t allow it and that where's most people live. In ad

When I was in the USA I was shcocked at the amount of homeless people, the poor decaying infrastruture in areas, the low wages, the huge numbers of illegal immigrants and working conditions of some of them this in a so called developed country? Is the United States wealthy and powerful, respected even feared ?? The answer is yes to all , are there poor people there? yes , Are they better off than the poor people in China? That's debatable stats or no stas , the poor people here have all the basic necessities of life unlike India including access to healthcare and education etc. I guess your stats don't measure the actual quality of life, social mobility and educational opportunites.

I deal with people not stats the world is nether black or white just grey. You cannot achieve a balanced objective view of the world through numbers because they never tell you all the story. The world we live is not made up from stats but from people.

Back onto the topic of skycity, this project ones like it could speed up the rate of urbanization and allow the country to develop faster. Moreover it will allow better use of resources especially the resource of time. This or something like it better work.

Off topic I was reading about China's stealth fighter and drone program and the CIA's assessment of them, it struck as wierd that a poor non developed country could develop tech that surpasses the capability of most western countries including my own. My point here is the difference between stats and on the ground intel. In reality most things are relative not absolute they are conditionaly true but subject to circumstances. This is a three tier society like everywhere else.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 07:33 AM   #2312
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Do we have any forum users in Changsha? Somebody who could help out ?
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Old December 7th, 2013, 11:46 AM   #2313
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Define developed country? If you mean that every corner of the country then by definition you are right but parts of some of the developed countries I've lived in don't come close to Hong Kong, Macau even Taiwan though the Taiwan issue is a sensitive one.

I remember living and working in Taiwan and people used to sneer at the place for being under developed the same way they did to Korea , Japan and China. But the simple truth is China is neither totally developed nor non developed it's both. The countryside is third world while most cities are second world while a few are first world.

What the stats don't tell you is the reality and the reality is there is a super rich elite a huge well off middle class and around billion poor. That means BMW makes and sells more cars in China than in the EU. More people travel by HSR here anywhere else. It's called income disparity but all the stats don't tell you is that the honeless rate in China is extremely low because the state provides housing to families . Furthermore the per capita income is too low in their studies because a lot of people either are employed in the balck market and/or they are enaged in extra work their actual income is higher than estimated. There is no way in hell you could live in the cities on the estimated per capita income for most Chinese, the cost of living wouldn;t allow it and that where's most people live. In ad

When I was in the USA I was shcocked at the amount of homeless people, the poor decaying infrastruture in areas, the low wages, the huge numbers of illegal immigrants and working conditions of some of them this in a so called developed country? Is the United States wealthy and powerful, respected even feared ?? The answer is yes to all , are there poor people there? yes , Are they better off than the poor people in China? That's debatable stats or no stas , the poor people here have all the basic necessities of life unlike India including access to healthcare and education etc. I guess your stats don't measure the actual quality of life, social mobility and educational opportunites.

I deal with people not stats the world is nether black or white just grey. You cannot achieve a balanced objective view of the world through numbers because they never tell you all the story. The world we live is not made up from stats but from people.

Back onto the topic of skycity, this project ones like it could speed up the rate of urbanization and allow the country to develop faster. Moreover it will allow better use of resources especially the resource of time. This or something like it better work.

Off topic I was reading about China's stealth fighter and drone program and the CIA's assessment of them, it struck as wierd that a poor non developed country could develop tech that surpasses the capability of most western countries including my own. My point here is the difference between stats and on the ground intel. In reality most things are relative not absolute they are conditionaly true but subject to circumstances. This is a three tier society like everywhere else.
Only numbers tell the most objective, complete story. The numbers indicate that China remains a largely third world country. Now lets get back on topic.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 05:27 PM   #2314
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Only numbers tell the most objective, complete story. The numbers indicate that China remains a largely third world country. Now lets get back on topic.
I wouldn't call China third world, more like second world.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 06:00 PM   #2315
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Only numbers tell the most objective, complete story. The numbers indicate that China remains a largely third world country. Now lets get back on topic.
Lol you are never on topic, always popping out here and there commenting about china's safety issues/ smog/ corruption.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 06:01 PM   #2316
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China's major cities have reached or are approaching First World levels. It's best to ignore anything this previously banned troll says.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 06:14 PM   #2317
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I would not want to live in a 132 year old building. It's a sign that the country isn't advancing regarding the wealth of the people or the infrastructure. 132 year old museums or tourist attractions are fine, but not residential buildings.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 06:16 PM   #2318
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I haven't felt the world was making progress for quite a while. We still fire coal for electricity, run our cars on petrol, ride on decrepit trains, fly with planes that have used the same technology for many decades, waste our opportunities in space (can't even get a guy on the Moon since 1972), we mothball all promising projects, we haven't made any progress on curing hundreds of illnesses that affect millions, hundreds of millions are malnourished, water is depleting, sea levels rising, education systems eroding, species going extinct by the thousands, and so forth. So now we build taller buildings than ten years ago. Big whoop. We're still living in the past in almost every other area.
Faster internet? More public transport and energy efficient technologies? Who really cares about putting people on the moon, it's not you or me that's going to get put on the moon.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 06:26 PM   #2319
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According to Mao's three worlds theory China would be the third world. Emerging country would probably be the most fitting term. Unlike the developed East Asian countries, even Japan, China is huge with huge differences not only between countryside and cities, young and old, educated and uneducated, rich and poor, but also between provinces, and geographical differences are among the slowest to disappear.

The period of headstrong/headless growth is coming to an end. Hopefully the economic growth will continue, but unlikely with the same speed. Soon enough China's population will fall. Urbanisation will continue, but not as strikingly as up to now. In 70 years the population of China's cities increased from something like 50 million to around 700 million. There will be another 300 million or so seeking to the cities, but growth from 700 to 1000 is less impressive than from 50 to 700.
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Old December 7th, 2013, 06:41 PM   #2320
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