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Old November 12th, 2010, 03:22 PM   #21
JustinB
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Which subway systems have services less than 20 minutes? I can't think of a single one outside of the United States actually...

Also, high service frequency is one of the prerequisites of being a metro system.
The Newcastle metro has 30 minute frequency on one of it's branches.

The Belo Horizonte Metro line is close with a frequency of 16 minutes.

Two systems that are totally grade separated.

The Cleveland Red Line was built in 1955, and Cleveland's economy was considerably better than it is now. For all we know, the Red Line met your requirement back then. The city is in decline, and the ridership levels may not justify better frequencies, or the agency simply cannot afford to run more trains.
The line is totally grade separated,has level boarding, and high capacity. To say it's not rapid transit because of service frequencies is harsh.
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Old November 12th, 2010, 03:45 PM   #22
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To say it's not rapid transit because of service frequencies is harsh.
Not only is it harsh, it is incorrect (at least for US specifications). Rapid transit is defined by the type of system and operation, not frequency. One could have a frequent streetcar/tram service and it would still be a tram, even if it were grade separated and had high boarding. Metro/Rapid service is defined by the type of trains being used, grade separation, and acceleration of the train. It may differ outside of the USA, but it is really a pretty solid definition globally. The Red line is rapid transit metro.

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Old November 13th, 2010, 04:50 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by FabriFlorence View Post
I don't know american standards for rapid transit, but in Europe the majority of metro trains run 3 - 5 minutes maximum.
Well, Atlanta's down to 15 minute rail service in a city that's twice as big, and growing.

RTA is fighting demographic trends that are crushing in scope. I'll be amazed if Cleveland's system is still operating in ten years, unless the peak oil meme pans out.
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Old November 13th, 2010, 12:57 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
The Newcastle metro has 30 minute frequency on one of it's branches.

The Belo Horizonte Metro line is close with a frequency of 16 minutes.

Two systems that are totally grade separated.

The Cleveland Red Line was built in 1955, and Cleveland's economy was considerably better than it is now. For all we know, the Red Line met your requirement back then. The city is in decline, and the ridership levels may not justify better frequencies, or the agency simply cannot afford to run more trains.
The line is totally grade separated,has level boarding, and high capacity. To say it's not rapid transit because of service frequencies is harsh.
#1. Newcastle Metro is actually segregated light rail. Anyone has been to Newcastle can tell you the system is very similar to the Stadtbahn systems seen in German cities.

#2. Belo Horazonte metro runs at a frequency of 10 minutes in the week off-peak, 12 mins on Saturday and 14 minutes on Sunday. Very different to Cleveland. Hardly frequencies to be writing home about, but not half as bad as those considered to be a metro system in Cleveland.

Also, don't be so defensive because I thought the frequencies of the RTA rail lines were bad.


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Originally Posted by tampasteve View Post
Not only is it harsh, it is incorrect (at least for US specifications). Rapid transit is defined by the type of system and operation, not frequency. One could have a frequent streetcar/tram service and it would still be a tram, even if it were grade separated and had high boarding. Metro/Rapid service is defined by the type of trains being used, grade separation, and acceleration of the train. It may differ outside of the USA, but it is really a pretty solid definition globally. The Red line is rapid transit metro.

Steve
It is different outside of the USA. Generally a metro system must have high frequency as one of its key points. But hey, when in Rome do as the Romans do. If you guys define it as a metro it's a metro.
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Old November 13th, 2010, 05:28 PM   #25
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Cleveland plans intermodal transportation center to link key landmarks
Published: Wednesday, June 23, 2010, 9:00 AM Updated: Wednesday, June 23, 2010, 9:20 AM
http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2010...tion_cent.html

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Cleveland plans to build a long-awaited intermodal transportation center near the lakefront to link the new medical mart, convention center and Flats east bank redevelopment.

The center, north of the east edge of Mall C, would serve rail passengers, motorists, pedestrians and bicyclists. It would likely extend over railroad tracks to just south of the Shoreway and include walkways to the mall and North Coast Harbor, city Planning Director Bob Brown said Tuesday.

Along with hosting a new Amtrak station that would be a stop on the proposed high-speed rail line between Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati, the center would offer access to RTA's waterfront rail line.

The project, which would also include a parking deck and bicycle connectors, could be one of the most complete multimodal centers in the United States, Brown said. That should help when officials seek money from federal and state agencies to build the facility, which could open in five to 10 years, he said.


View full sizeThe Plain DealerThe Greater Cleveland Regional Transit Authority in 1997 proposed a transit center at the site for bus lines including Greyhound, taxis, the rapid system and trains. But as the Flats entertainment district declined and downtown development stalled, RTA decided to build a bus transit center, which will open this fall, near Cleveland State University and may build a second one in the Warehouse District.

Cleveland, which owns the land where the intermodal center will be built, eyed the property as a transportation link in developing the lakefront plan. Four years ago, the city was awarded $718,900 in federal funds by the Federal Transit Administration to plan an intermodal facility, Brown said. But the money sat unused because all the talk of lakefront development or a new convention center never led to any concrete plans.

Until now.

This month, the city agreed to sell its downtown convention center for Cuyahoga County's new medical mart complex. A new, L-shaped convention center beneath Malls B and C will connect with an above-ground mart at the northeast corner of St. Clair Avenue and Ontario Street.

Half of the federal earmark funds, which are administered by RTA, expired two years ago and the other half expires June 30, which prompted the RTA board on Tuesday to give the money to Cleveland. The city will provide a 20 percent match, so about $432,000 will be available to prepare a plan and preliminary design.

The new intermodal facility will likely be toward the east edge of Mall C so it doesn't block a ballroom in the new convention center to be fronted by a 25-foot-high wall of glass facing Lake Erie.

The total cost is not yet known but All Aboard Ohio, a nonprofit organization promoting rail, estimated in 2009 that a new rail and transportation center north of Mall C would cost about $50 million.
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Old November 13th, 2010, 10:28 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
Also, don't be so defensive because I thought the frequencies of the RTA rail lines were bad.
I am not being defensive. Not to be offensive, but your comment was pretty silly. For we know, the Red Line probably had great frequencies when it opened in the 50's. Keep in mind, transit agencies in the US are facing serious funding shortfalls, and service levels are being cut. Even large systems such as MTA is going through fare increases, and service cuts.
Here in Toronto, we have frequencies of 2 minutes on our subway system, Montreal roughly 5 minutes.

Quote:
It is different outside of the USA. Generally a metro system must have high frequency as one of its key points. But hey, when in Rome do as the Romans do. If you guys define it as a metro it's a metro.
There are systems in the US that have good frequencies(L.A., Philadelphia). It has more to do with the agency running the systems, and how they decide to run their systems.
If we were talking about modern systems, I would agree with you 100%. North American agencies build subways and hope to attract ridership, and subways simply do not attract riders. You could have just built LRT on the surface at the fraction of the price.
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Last edited by JustinB; November 14th, 2010 at 02:44 PM.
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Old November 13th, 2010, 10:52 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Svartmetall View Post
It is different outside of the USA. Generally a metro system must have high frequency as one of its key points. But hey, when in Rome do as the Romans do. If you guys define it as a metro it's a metro.
Cleveland is lucky just to have mass transit in the first place regardless of frequency. There are still many cities in the US (ie Detroit, Indianapolis, San Antonio, Tampa, Kansas City, Cincinnati, Raleigh, etc) that do not have any mass transit at all outside of the bus system.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 07:25 AM   #28
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I agree with Justin B and diablo234. Remember this is the US, where many politicians and good portion of US population views mass transit as "evil socialism", waste of taxes, useless, bringing undesirables to their suburban utopian communities etc. Cleveland used to be one of the largest cities in the US, and happens to be one of the few cities left in the Midwest to have mass transit. The other cities are Chicago, St.Louis, and Minneapolis.

Last edited by LtBk; July 24th, 2011 at 07:13 AM.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 08:41 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustinB View Post
The Cleveland Red Line was built in 1955, and Cleveland's economy was considerably better than it is now. For all we know, the Red Line met your requirement back then. The city is in decline, and the ridership levels may not justify better frequencies, or the agency simply cannot afford to run more trains.
The line is totally grade separated,has level boarding, and high capacity. To say it's not rapid transit because of service frequencies is harsh.
I should also point out though that Cleveland itself isn't so much declining as it is stagnant. Certain neighborhoods such as Downtown, The Avenue District, Tremont, Ohio City, University Circle, and Murray Hill (also known as Little Italy) have attracted investment and revitalization efforts. While more people are still moving out than moving in, by and large it is mostly attributed to families moving out while young singles and childless couples have started to move in. Downtown Cleveland for example actually gained residents growing from 7,261 in 1990 to 9,599 as of the 2000 Census.
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Old November 14th, 2010, 02:53 PM   #30
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It appears that the new station bypasses the former Cleveland Union Terminal that was built during the 1920s. At the time of its completion, the terminal tower was the tallest building in North America outside of New York City.

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Old November 15th, 2010, 12:47 AM   #31
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It appears that the new station bypasses the former Cleveland Union Terminal that was built during the 1920s. At the time of its completion, the terminal tower was the tallest building in North America outside of New York City.
Yeah, it does bypass the Union Terminal, but the RTA still serves Union Terminal. (It's now known as Tower City.)
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Old November 15th, 2010, 01:42 AM   #32
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Hod how I love the Terminal Tower, it's a beaut!
Downtown Cleveland is not growing but it is one of the few mid west cities that has a downtown worth going to day and night.
Despite it's declining population it is one of the few US cities that has, too some extent, avoided the dreaded Donut disease of downtown urban development.
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Old November 15th, 2010, 06:40 AM   #33
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the station buildings are pretty horrible examples of postmodernism
Maybe by the stringent standards of an architectual critic.

But by my book the newer RTA rapid stations do represent a considerable improvement over what was there before.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 06:39 AM   #35
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Cleveland to Akron sounds feasible.
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Old November 17th, 2010, 08:00 AM   #36
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So interesting the information, the proyect is impressive and very well designed

Greedings.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 04:22 AM   #37
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Photos taken by Calvin Henry-Cotnam.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 05:00 AM   #38
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Some old photos of the Blue and Green Rapid lines.



Photos by Steve Zabel
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Old November 18th, 2010, 07:53 AM   #39
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That first picture is surreal to me

There's a PCC trolley, the last of its kind, a surviving member of the dinosaurs. On the other side, a RTS bus, a design that sort of held on until only last year.

One thing familiar occupying the same historic space as something ancient.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 08:32 AM   #40
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That first picture is surreal to me

There's a PCC trolley, the last of its kind, a surviving member of the dinosaurs. On the other side, a RTS bus, a design that sort of held on until only last year.

One thing familiar occupying the same historic space as something ancient.
Those PCC's that Cleveland used to run came secondhand from the Minneapolis, other cars of the same type went to run on Newark's City Subway, And after Newark decided to pony up for Modern LRV's some of the cars came over to San Francisco to run on the popular F-line.
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