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Old January 18th, 2008, 11:50 AM   #321
iampuking
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They are going to be re-used for South West Trains 12 car services to Portsmouth (?) I believe. Annoyingly, it won't happen for a while.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 02:44 PM   #322
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I believe they're re-opening in November of this year. Longer term proposals are listed here.
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Old January 18th, 2008, 03:01 PM   #323
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That's not so bad I guess...

By the way, am I the only one that hates the statue?
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Old January 19th, 2008, 07:08 AM   #324
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really like this project
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Old January 19th, 2008, 02:47 PM   #325
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Originally Posted by BenL View Post
Bear in mind that once The Circle opens in 2008 the domestic area (or at least very near it) will be full of high street brands like Fine Burger co., Yo! Sushi, Paul, Pret and Starbucks.
Fine Burger, Paul never heard of them. Yo Sushi is hardly High Street either - High Street implies shops that are in many big towns, not just trendy areas of London and a couple of the biggest cities.
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I think St Pancras is primarily an international station focused on the Eurostar - I can't see why there's anything wrong with that. It's what it was designed for and it's what the passenger numbers will reflect when they're published.
you mean the ones showing that far more people are using the MML and Thameslink stations than taking the Eurostar?

It is far worse, other than in platform dimensions at SPILL than what was there before, other than it looks nice (Kings Cross Thameslink was outside in the same way that Paddington circle line is outside - in a cutting, got a roof over the platforms and a bit more, buildings around it, quite hard for the wind and rain to cause much bother as it's about 85% enclosed). Interchanges are upto 2.5 times the amount of time they were (Thameslink-Victoria) and the major ones involving St Pancras are the ones which are the furthest (Thameslink/MML-Victoria/Piccadilly/Northern), having been shorter. There's now two gatelines to pass between Thameslink and the tube, adding delay to what must surely be the main flow of the whole station during peak times.
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Old January 19th, 2008, 05:21 PM   #326
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It's funny how you conveniently ignore all of my points on the previous page...

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Fine Burger, Paul never heard of them. Yo Sushi is hardly High Street either - High Street implies shops that are in many big towns, not just trendy areas of London and a couple of the biggest cities.
They wanted it to be a classier affair, and rightly so.

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
you mean the ones showing that far more people are using the MML and Thameslink stations than taking the Eurostar?
So? Far more people use the Tube in a day than the entire NR network, do you think it should get St Pancras?

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
It is far worse, other than in platform dimensions at SPILL than what was there before, other than it looks nice (Kings Cross Thameslink was outside in the same way that Paddington circle line is outside - in a cutting, got a roof over the platforms and a bit more, buildings around it, quite hard for the wind and rain to cause much bother as it's about 85% enclosed).
Paddington on the Circle & District is well lit, has wide platforms, is covered by an overall roof, has good connections, King's Cross Thameslink had none of these.

And let's make it bright and clear: IT DIDN'T FIT 12 CAR TRAINS.

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Interchanges are upto 2.5 times the amount of time they were (Thameslink-Victoria) and the major ones involving St Pancras are the ones which are the furthest (Thameslink/MML-Victoria/Piccadilly/Northern), having been shorter.
What? Read back your comment please? It's so terribly written that I can barely understand it.

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
There's now two gatelines to pass between Thameslink and the tube, adding delay to what must surely be the main flow of the whole station during peak times.
Yes, about two seconds.

Last edited by iampuking; January 19th, 2008 at 05:29 PM.
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Old January 19th, 2008, 08:56 PM   #327
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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
It's funny how you conveniently ignore all of my points on the previous page...
no I didn't, I read them, and found I hadn't enough time to answer them. In the light of your most main point of what's my solution - then here it is. I've built the MML platforms to the east of the station, with Pancras Road running underneath them (probably a good idea to divert the A5200 to Midland Road). I've put the Thameslink station between the two mainline ones and given it a maze of passageways for nice interchanges with the tube. Doing the latter would have meant no blockade of the Thameslink route (what was it, 6 months?), other than for a couple of days to tie in, though would have involved more tunnelling (but Pancras road was a building site - still was in December when I went there)
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They wanted it to be a classier affair, and rightly so.
so basically, because the premium service stops there, everything has to be premium? Were there complaints from visiting tourists getting off the Eurostar at Waterloo about there being Burger King, etc? Surely having the more staple diet of shops in stations tucked away near the domestic platforms isn't going to give a bad impression - all the foreign visitor has to do is go outside and the veneer has gone?
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So? Far more people use the Tube in a day than the entire NR network, do you think it should get St Pancras?
no, but the tube doesn't get treated as if it's an inconvenient bit of the network (quite the opposite - it seems to be getting far more investment than NR off the flagship projects) that they have to maintain and improve. The domestic replacement bit of StP seems to have been treated as if it was unimportant and could be tucked away. People using MML complained about the long walk from the interim station (now the Kent platforms), but when they got their final set of platforms that walk was further.
Quote:
IT DIDN'T FIT 12 CAR TRAINS.
indeed, no need to get shirty - I've acknowledged it already. But it's not about the fact that KXT needed replacing, but about how many things are now, the replacement having come are worse than before. Let's have an example showing why this is an issue: we're going to lengthen trains on the Victoria line, however because none of the platforms can fit 10 cars or are as wide as we would like, we're going to move all the platforms to places where we can have nice wide 10 car ones, removing all the cross-platform interchanges. Can you not see the major disbenefit of improving it like that?
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What? Read back your comment please? It's so terribly written that I can barely understand it.
Interchanges at KXSP are now upto 2.5 times longer timewise (Victoria-Thameslink). The major interchanges of MML/Thameslink to deep tube lines are now the longest, when in the case of Thameslink, it used to be short. Thameslink-Victoria/Piccadilly is probably the busiest interchange involving NR at KXSP, yet it's now the longest one to make, through bad planning.
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Yes, about two seconds.
unless the machine breaks, someone mucks up with it and holds the queue up, plus there's the extra bother of sorting out your ticket Oyster and getting it ready for the machine. It's not much, but it's a worse situation than before, where Thameslink-tube was within fare control.

You can been held up for twenty seconds quite easily (especially with Oyster - I had a day in London in December and I had about 5 delays because someone's Oyster didn't work, each lasting about 20 seconds - seeing as that was over half my entrances and exits that involved waiting in a queue, so it seems quite common) imagine that twice on a tight connection to Thameslink and just missing your train and having to wait 15 minutes? Or imagine if it was your Oyster/gate that made an error of some sort, and you were held up for a minute or two. It shouldn't normally be a problem, but when it is, it can be very annoying. It was never a problem before, but has been 'engineered in'

In summation, the over-priority of providing an outstanding (and it is, except for the pointless and hideous statue) terminal for HS1 at St Pancras and neglect, during design, of the existing users of the station, has led to several - some minor (like the ticket gates), some major (like longer interchanges) - retrograde steps that were avoidable with a bit of thinking (and perhaps a bit more money, though the Thameslink blockade cost a fortune in compensation) which make the improvements to ambience and car lengths rather a hollow victory.
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Old January 20th, 2008, 01:47 AM   #328
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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
no I didn't, I read them, and found I hadn't enough time to answer them. In the light of your most main point of what's my solution - then here it is. I've built the MML platforms to the east of the station, with Pancras Road running underneath them (probably a good idea to divert the A5200 to Midland Road). I've put the Thameslink station between the two mainline ones and given it a maze of passageways for nice interchanges with the tube. Doing the latter would have meant no blockade of the Thameslink route (what was it, 6 months?), other than for a couple of days to tie in, though would have involved more tunnelling (but Pancras road was a building site - still was in December when I went there)
Would've been disruptive to car users, would've cost more, i.e. no politician would back it. And if i'm right, that would pass right underneath the new developments at King's Cross... I'm not sure they want trains rumbling underneath it every 2.5 minutes. And what about that river?

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
so basically, because the premium service stops there, everything has to be premium? Were there complaints from visiting tourists getting off the Eurostar at Waterloo about there being Burger King, etc? Surely having the more staple diet of shops in stations tucked away near the domestic platforms isn't going to give a bad impression - all the foreign visitor has to do is go outside and the veneer has gone?
There is no veneer, the station was supposed to bring back the "romance" of train travel, I don't think naff fast food stores with surly staff and stinky food is going to achieve this.

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
no, but the tube doesn't get treated as if it's an inconvenient bit of the network (quite the opposite - it seems to be getting far more investment than NR off the flagship projects)
Crossrail, Thameslink Upgrade? You can argue that these are only in London but they're still NR.

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
that they have to maintain and improve. The domestic replacement bit of StP seems to have been treated as if it was unimportant and could be tucked away. People using MML complained about the long walk from the interim station (now the Kent platforms), but when they got their final set of platforms that walk was further.
I don't see why you're still complaining about this, not every passenger can have the exact same walk, what about the people who are at the back of the Eurostar trains?

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
indeed, no need to get shirty - I've acknowledged it already. But it's not about the fact that KXT needed replacing, but about how many things are now, the replacement having come are worse than before. Let's have an example showing why this is an issue: we're going to lengthen trains on the Victoria line, however because none of the platforms can fit 10 cars or are as wide as we would like, we're going to move all the platforms to places where we can have nice wide 10 car ones, removing all the cross-platform interchanges. Can you not see the major disbenefit of improving it like that?
Terrible comparision for these reasons

1) It is one station
2) The station before it was a dump anyway
3) It was badly situated for passengers wanting to get to St Pancras or Kings Cross
4) There was never a cross-platform interchange, just a tunnel leading to the Victoria line and no direct tunnel leading to the Piccadilly or Northern lines which is what there will be when the Northern Ticket Hall opens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
Interchanges at KXSP are now upto 2.5 times longer timewise (Victoria-Thameslink). The major interchanges of MML/Thameslink to deep tube lines are now the longest, when in the case of Thameslink, it used to be short. Thameslink-Victoria/Piccadilly is probably the busiest interchange involving NR at KXSP, yet it's now the longest one to make, through bad planning.unless the machine breaks, someone mucks up with it and holds the queue up, plus there's the extra bother of sorting out your ticket Oyster and getting it ready for the machine. It's not much, but it's a worse situation than before, where Thameslink-tube was within fare control.
Northern Ticket Hall?

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
You can been held up for twenty seconds quite easily (especially with Oyster - I had a day in London in December and I had about 5 delays because someone's Oyster didn't work, each lasting about 20 seconds - seeing as that was over half my entrances and exits that involved waiting in a queue, so it seems quite common) imagine that twice on a tight connection to Thameslink and just missing your train and having to wait 15 minutes? Or imagine if it was your Oyster/gate that made an error of some sort, and you were held up for a minute or two. It shouldn't normally be a problem, but when it is, it can be very annoying. It was never a problem before, but has been 'engineered in'
You're really fussing over nothing here.

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Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
In summation, the over-priority of providing an outstanding (and it is, except for the pointless and hideous statue) terminal for HS1 at St Pancras and neglect, during design, of the existing users of the station, has led to several - some minor (like the ticket gates), some major (like longer interchanges) - retrograde steps that were avoidable with a bit of thinking (and perhaps a bit more money, though the Thameslink blockade cost a fortune in compensation) which make the improvements to ambience and car lengths rather a hollow victory.
So you think having 50% extra capacity on every Thameslink train a "hollow victory"?
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Old January 22nd, 2008, 08:21 AM   #329
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Originally Posted by iampuking View Post
Would've been disruptive to car users, would've cost more, i.e. no politician would back it.
have you walked along St Pancras Road at some point during the last few years? Tons of disruption on it anyway, and not much traffic on it (though that could be because of the disruption) - OK, this will bring more, as you are building over it and under it, though the St Pancras extension was over it anyway. As for cost, the benefits would outweigh them considerably, and seeing as Crossrail has lots of backing, it seems that being a more expensive option isn't always a hindrance to political backing (also see rejection of M6Toll extension, in favour of widening). I'm also unsure it would cost much more for the Thameslink platforms to be where I've put them - we're talking a tiny amount compared to the whole scheme - as you wouldn't have had the blockade and subsequent compensation, though the MML viaduct and platforms would add to the cost.
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And if i'm right, that would pass right underneath the new developments at King's Cross... I'm not sure they want trains rumbling underneath it every 2.5 minutes. And what about that river?
a great many places in London seem to cope with trains running underneath them at 24tph or more (and it's better than having that amount on a viaduct, yet the South Bank don't seem to mind too much about Charing Cross trains, nor the added traffic caused by Thameslink 2000). Shall we not build the development that will pay for Woolwich station, seeing as it sits on top of a 24tph NR line? Also, what river - do you mean the Grand Union Canal - if so, I can't see it being any more of a problem than it was in 1868 when they built St Pancras and the tracks to Moorgate - in fact it should be far less, with better technology and a far less busy canal.
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There is no veneer, the station was supposed to bring back the "romance" of train travel, I don't think naff fast food stores with surly staff and stinky food is going to achieve this.
it's a veneer - all someone has to do to lose the romance of train travel is go to any other mainline terminus, according to you, as they have fast food (which you seem to be prejudiced against - the staff at these posh places can be just as surly, if not more so and also the food can be far more smelly) - the posh shops are gold plating to keep up the effect that the tarted up station has - OK, standard NR station faire in one corner of the station will tarnish that image, however it would be a whole lot more practical. Also, if it was to put the romance back into train travel, then the domestic stations fail in that brief - a long walk isn't good, and neither is either of the two character-less stations that they sit in. SPILL is so bland and bare that it almost hurts - it's as depressing as KXT on an overcast day - it's completely soul-less - there's no romance there (which kinds of proves my point that they just didn't care as much as they should have done, given the care on the rest of the station).
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Crossrail, Thameslink Upgrade? You can argue that these are only in London but they're still NR.
read the last bit of the sentence - they are flagship projects - outside of the flagship projects, LU seems to be getting far more investment than NR.
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I don't see why you're still complaining about this, not every passenger can have the exact same walk, what about the people who are at the back of the Eurostar trains?
I know they can't have exactly the same walk, but to doubling the distance for arriving passengers from the north to walk to get to the West End is nothing short of scandalous. Perhaps we should make you walk twice as far during the middle of your commute? Also, the Eurostar Passengers have moving walkways on the platforms to assist them in getting from the far end of the station.
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Terrible comparision for these reasons

1) It is one station
2) The station before it was a dump anyway
3) It was badly situated for passengers wanting to get to St Pancras or Kings Cross
the station being a dump is moot as I wasn't adovocating keeping it as is the third point. And seeing as we're talking about a specific interchange the third point is lost for a second reason, the first one you can add in - lets say it's just at Oxford Circus.
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4) There was never a cross-platform interchange, just a tunnel leading to the Victoria line and no direct tunnel leading to the Piccadilly or Northern lines which is what there will be when the Northern Ticket Hall opens.
I know, but it was a far shorter walk (half the distance now, 60% max than with the NTH) than even with the NTH for the Victoria line, and also there wasn't be two gatelines. OK, I used hyperbole and had a cross-platform interchange, however you're still trading a reasonable interchange between KXT and the Vic/Pic lines (the comparison had a very good interchange) for a diabolical one between SPILL and the Vic/Pic lines that'll improve to just being a bad one when the Northern Ticket Hall opens. Perhaps a comparison for it would be taking the to Victoria-Jubilee at Green Park and then turning it into something as bad as Jubilee-Piccadilly at Green Park.
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Northern Ticket Hall?
is under Kings Cross, with an underpass under St Pancras Road linking it coming up by the Kent platforms, right on the east side (literally right by the door) of StP - still going to be two gatelines for all StP traffic just not a walk down the Arcade, or a trip outside, I'm afraid.
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So you think having 50% extra capacity on every Thameslink train a "hollow victory"?
it's not every train - some will still be 8 car, but yes I do consider it a hollow victory that StP will be able to have 12-car trains on Thameslink if it means that the majority of people changing have to walk twice as far as they once did, and possibly could have done if it was better planned and go through two gatelines they didn't before. Yes it's great to get out of the crap station at KX Thameslink, but it's not great to move into a replacement like SPILL - just as unfriendly and how they managed to get it in a worse place than KXT, I'll never know!
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Old January 24th, 2008, 10:12 PM   #330
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Well at least those that walk further will not be contributing to the obesity crisis.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 10:37 PM   #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
have you walked along St Pancras Road at some point during the last few years? Tons of disruption on it anyway, and not much traffic on it (though that could be because of the disruption) - OK, this will bring more, as you are building over it and under it, though the St Pancras extension was over it anyway.
That's an understatement, you're planning on re-aligning that entire section of Thameslink route, including building through a river (i'll adress that point later) and flattening a few buildings. Also, you're ditching the perfectly good tunnels that already exist, I don't like waste.

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Originally Posted by sotonsi
As for cost, the benefits would outweigh them considerably
I agree with this, your plans seem better, but I was merely pointing out the unfeasibility of it all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
and seeing as Crossrail has lots of backing, it seems that being a more expensive option isn't always a hindrance to political backing
Crossrail has far more benefits than simply making interchanges a few tens of seconds shorter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
(also see rejection of M6Toll extension, in favour of widening). I'm also unsure it would cost much more for the Thameslink platforms to be where I've put them - we're talking a tiny amount compared to the whole scheme - as you wouldn't have had the blockade and subsequent compensation, though the MML viaduct and platforms would add to the cost.
I don't actually know what you're referring to, enlighten me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
a great many places in London seem to cope with trains running underneath them at 24tph or more (and it's better than having that amount on a viaduct, yet the South Bank don't seem to mind too much about Charing Cross trains, nor the added traffic caused by Thameslink 2000).
They do, but it doesn't necessarily mean the residents living nearby like it, they simply have no choice as much of the railway lines were there before they were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
Shall we not build the development that will pay for Woolwich station, seeing as it sits on top of a 24tph NR line? Also, what river - do you mean the Grand Union Canal - if so, I can't see it being any more of a problem than it was in 1868 when they built St Pancras and the tracks to Moorgate - in fact it should be far less, with better technology and a far less busy canal.
It still adds to the cost and disruption for the sake of a shorter walk. I'm not silly enough to think that technology is too unadvanced for it, if that's what you're trying to imply

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
it's a veneer - all someone has to do to lose the romance of train travel is go to any other mainline terminus, according to you, as they have fast food (which you seem to be prejudiced against - the staff at these posh places can be just as surly, if not more so and also the food can be far more smelly) - the posh shops are gold plating to keep up the effect that the tarted up station has - OK, standard NR station faire in one corner of the station will tarnish that image, however it would be a whole lot more practical.
You could say that any posh restaurant is a veneer then.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
Also, if it was to put the romance back into train travel, then the domestic stations fail in that brief - a long walk isn't good, and neither is either of the two character-less stations that they sit in. SPILL is so bland and bare that it almost hurts - it's as depressing as KXT on an overcast day - it's completely soul-less - there's no romance there (which kinds of proves my point that they just didn't care as much as they should have done, given the care on the rest of the station).
You're right, it's as bland as hell, but it was designed to be like that so as not to compete with the old station. It's not even 100% finished anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
read the last bit of the sentence - they are flagship projects - outside of the flagship projects, LU seems to be getting far more investment than NR.
Really? I can't think of many extension projects going on, apart from extra ticket halls at Victoria and King's Cross or updates funded by the PPP. Anyway, it's justified as LU carries more passengers per day than the entire NR network.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
I know they can't have exactly the same walk, but to doubling the distance for arriving passengers from the north to walk to get to the West End is nothing short of scandalous.
Arriving passengers? What arriving passengers are you referring to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
Also, the Eurostar Passengers have moving walkways on the platforms to assist them in getting from the far end of the station.
I don't know for sure, but I think those are only at the southern end, and there are only one per platform, with escalators at the far southernly end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
And seeing as we're talking about a specific interchange the third point is lost for a second reason, the first one you can add in - lets say it's just at Oxford Circus.
The difference is: it was convenient to build cross-platform interchange at Oxford Circus, the Bakerloo line platforms were outward facing from day one, the station needed expanding, and the Victoria line was heading in a north-south direction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
I know, but it was a far shorter walk (half the distance now, 60% max than with the NTH) than even with the NTH for the Victoria line, and also there wasn't be two gatelines. OK, I used hyperbole and had a cross-platform interchange, however you're still trading a reasonable interchange between KXT and the Vic/Pic lines (the comparison had a very good interchange) for a diabolical one between SPILL and the Vic/Pic lines that'll improve to just being a bad one when the Northern Ticket Hall opens.
Look on an A-Z, the Northern Ticket Hall is approximately halfway between the new Thameslink station and the old one, it will have escalators straight down to the Piccadilly line platforms (escalators also have greater capacity) i'm not so sure about the Northern or Victoria lines, but i'm sure that they're going to end up on the northern ends of the station, so I don't see where you're getting the idea that the interchange will still be longer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
is under Kings Cross, with an underpass under St Pancras Road linking it coming up by the Kent platforms, right on the east side (literally right by the door) of StP - still going to be two gatelines for all StP traffic just not a walk down the Arcade, or a trip outside, I'm afraid.
There should've been direct interchange to Thameslink, without having to walk through St Pancras, something which I think I advocated earlier in this or another thread. So no need to argue with me there.

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Originally Posted by sotonsi
it's not every train - some will still be 8 car
Some, but it still gives the chance for them to be legnthened if capacity warrants it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi
but yes I do consider it a hollow victory that StP will be able to have 12-car trains on Thameslink if it means that the majority of people changing have to walk twice as far as they once did, and possibly could have done if it was better planned and go through two gatelines they didn't before. Yes it's great to get out of the crap station at KX Thameslink, but it's not great to move into a replacement like SPILL - just as unfriendly and how they managed to get it in a worse place than KXT, I'll never know!
I think you're being melodramatic, as I said earlier, the interchange will be significantly shorter when the Northern Ticket Hall opens, without the hassle of having to complete realign the Thameslink route for the sake of a shorter interchange. Another point is that Thameslink or Crossrail are not even designed for passengers to need to change to tube lines, they're designed to take people from far out satellite towns into the city, hence why Crossrail has had little attempt to make any cross-platform interchange with tube lines.
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Old January 24th, 2008, 11:13 PM   #332
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^
This is like the Australian Open tennis, I think its 2 sets all.
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Old February 18th, 2008, 02:09 PM   #333
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Some videos from Youtube


Chilham station.


Ashford to Ramsgate.

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Galería de fotos, con imágenes curiosas, de pueblos y ciudades, paisajes, monumentos, trenes y tranvías... ordenadas geográficamente.

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Old September 20th, 2008, 06:03 PM   #334
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Birmingham New Street Station

Even though its been posted in the British railway section, it deffinatly deserves its own thread.

Its big news for us, and a design so precise and amazing only comes along once in a while for Birmingham.

Its the second largest city in the UK, and its abolut time we had some good news, so heres some images.






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Old September 21st, 2008, 03:25 PM   #335
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And Birmingham New Street is arguably the single most important station on the entire railway network in the UK. Nothing in London is as strategically important due to the way there are many entirely separate lines and stations into London. In Britains second city its different, apart from a very small number of services everything goes through one very crowded station, including practically every high(ish) speed long distance service in the country that doesn't go to London.
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Old September 23rd, 2008, 12:59 AM   #336
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When will the construction begin and end?
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Old September 23rd, 2008, 07:01 AM   #337
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How many platforms will the new station have?
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Old September 23rd, 2008, 07:06 PM   #338
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Construction should begin next year some time, and will be finished by 2012, hopefully, then the second phase will involve to twin towers at the entrance to the station, these should be complete by 2014!

And Im not sure how many platforms, It may be 12 or 14, can someone please verify that please!
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Old September 23rd, 2008, 07:23 PM   #339
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Very nice. I guess the next time i visit Birmingham, the new station will be up and running.
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Old September 23rd, 2008, 11:09 PM   #340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brisbanite View Post
How many platforms will the new station have?
It's a cosmetic exercise - no increase in the number of platforms
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