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Old March 16th, 2010, 01:09 AM   #441
makita09
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Hitachi themselves altered the specification, and the DfT went for it, clearly they do know what they are doing, I'm not disagreeing with that. Nonetheless it is a ridiculous plan, specifically the bi-mode. Not quite as ridiculous as if Hitachi went with small diesel generators as specified.

Hitachi will do an extremely good job of making a bi-mode train that is really not what we need. It is the strategy that is all wrong. What should have been done is opting for the electric variant, and when the HSTs give up the ghost either cascade DEMUs from electrification projects meaning the MML Meridian and Virgin Voyager units or tender for another few units at that point. The network should be being progressively electrified, this should be the plan, indeed this is slowly turning into the plan as we speak.

Following this plan we get a vastly cheaper EMU, that is just as effective, and it doesn't have development costs for loads of other nonsense. We get more network electrified rather than bits of it no longer justifiable. The drawback is we end up with maybe 10 or 20 extra 5-car DEMUs which we may or may not need indefinitely.

As it is we will end up with expensive to buy and costly to repair due to the bespoke nature if the vehicles, not all that cheap to run except the electric variant, and good reasons to excuse from electrifying all the way to Penzance and Aberdeen.

The consortium is just another ROSCO under this contract once the vehicles are in service, of which a very large element is the bank. Whoever is leasing the trains to the TOCs will want to be damn sure there is 30 years of life in the contract. Can the government guarantee to the consortium that it won't electrify to Penzance? The moment it finds itself asking that question it realises what a peculiar pickle the situation is - and how the bi-mode doesn't seem the silver bullet after all.

The vehicle itself will be fine. It is how it affects the general strategy that is the issue.

Re. the previous papers, not a single previous paper was comissioned by the government specifying "We want to build a high speed line, tell us how exactly to do it". All the others were general white papers in the general area of rail, including the eddington one. All such reports can be taken with a pinch of salt. When a government asks for technical plans on how to do something that is a different level of action. Still no guarantee - but the point is even if the government had chosen to do high speed after those previous reports, they would still have had to commission this one. This is the first real one.
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 12:42 PM   #442
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Conceptual High Speed Train, UK

This is a proposition by the famous British design studio Priestmangoode, called "Mercury". The train would be around 400 meters long and travel at a speed of 225 mph (362 km/h). The nose is inspired from the former high speed plane Concorde.






high speed train in uk
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 06:00 PM   #443
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Renders look amazing but I'm more impressed by the fact that it will be a HSR AND a Double Decker. That's double the passenger weight than current HSRs.
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 08:31 PM   #444
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It wouldn't be the first double decker HSR train





from www.railwaytechnology.com
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 09:23 PM   #445
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Arent most of the Shinkansens double decker?

Outside France and Germany seems to be the norm rather than the exception.
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 10:59 PM   #446
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I love double decked trains and would love to see them running in Britain. Unfortunately I don't think it will happen for at least 20 years or so due to costs.
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Old August 3rd, 2010, 11:25 PM   #447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fatfield View Post
I love double decked trains and would love to see them running in Britain. Unfortunately I don't think it will happen for at least 20 years or so due to costs.
Not on existing lines. But you can be certain that any new HSL build will be to a gauge allowing double deck trains. I suppose that a TGV Duplex can already reach st. Pancras International.
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Old August 4th, 2010, 02:52 AM   #448
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WatcherZero View Post
Arent most of the Shinkansens double decker?

Outside France and Germany seems to be the norm rather than the exception.
No, only E4 MAX Yamabiko is double decker atm.
There is E1 as well, but not used much
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Old August 4th, 2010, 05:52 AM   #449
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Whenever I see people travelling from Tokyo to Osaka its always on a double.
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Old August 4th, 2010, 11:01 AM   #450
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I suppose that a TGV Duplex can already reach st. Pancras International.
Yes they can and now that Eurotunnel safety regulations have been softened the road is clear to start using them when needed. (Ash cloud, closure of airspace for whatever reason or just charter market)
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Old August 4th, 2010, 10:05 PM   #451
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ImBoredNow View Post
Renders look amazing but I'm more impressed by the fact that it will be a HSR AND a Double Decker. That's double the passenger weight than current HSRs.
I'm just impressed by the fact it is a double decker, because there aren't double deckers in UK due to their height limits
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Old August 4th, 2010, 10:40 PM   #452
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I like the renders of the interior better than those of the outside. It looks very luxurious and spacy, even in a relatively cramped area such as a train.

These trains will never run on the 'older' classic British tracks as they have a loading gauge which is too narrow for double decker trains to even fit. Only the newly built HS1 and future extensions such as HS2 and perhaps other new tracks will be able to accomodate these trains as they (will) have the European loading gauge which does allow double decker trains.
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Old August 4th, 2010, 11:51 PM   #453
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is the wcml not big enough for double deckers now?
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Old August 5th, 2010, 04:06 PM   #454
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Ok, well this will never happen
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Old August 5th, 2010, 04:22 PM   #455
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Republica View Post
is the wcml not big enough for double deckers now?
No, its 3.896m (w10), i think UIC B is 4.15m
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Old August 5th, 2010, 08:40 PM   #456
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WatcherZero View Post
Whenever I see people travelling from Tokyo to Osaka its always on a double.
It's already quite some time ago that the 100 series sets with 2 double deck cars out of the 18 in the set where used on the Tokaido Shinkansen from Tokyo to Osaka. After 2003 the whole line has been completely single deck, the double deck E1 and E4 can't even run on this part of the network.


As for this design study, it's nice but it should be treated as a design study. It's nice for the portfolio of the bureau but to start with it will have some problems with the European Safety regulations if they want to turn it into reality. But who knows, maybe we will see some elements of the design in future trains, I see some interesting design solutions that would be interesting to see if they can be used in a real train.
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Old August 7th, 2010, 01:20 AM   #457
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WatcherZero View Post
Whenever I see people travelling from Tokyo to Osaka its always on a double.
Those aren't traveling to Osaka. The double decker is used for Shinkansen commuters who take the train from Outlying towns to Tokyo. Not trains between Osaka and Tokyo. The double-decker looks like a tall 700-series, though.


Tokyo - Osaka services are Nozomi, Hikari and Kodama. Super Express, Express and Slow, using the 700-series (duck-billed nose single-decker), N700 (Tilting version of the same) and 300-series.
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Old August 8th, 2010, 08:17 PM   #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
No, its 3.896m (w10), i think UIC B is 4.15m
i thought the route had been cleared during the upgrade, sounds like it wasnt though. and of course if it had i would have expected double deckers to already be in action.
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Old August 8th, 2010, 09:10 PM   #459
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This may be British designed, but it will never be seen on Britains dreadful rail network.
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Old August 8th, 2010, 09:30 PM   #460
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And which manufacter would built this type of train? In the UK there are no trainmanufacters. So, it will never built.
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