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Old August 8th, 2010, 10:27 PM   #461
Momo1435
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It might be good to post what Priestmangoode has to say about this design study to make it a bit more clear what's behind this project.
Quote:
Mercury - the next great British design icon.

We believe that the new high speed train is vital for the future of Britain, both as the low-carbon, sustainable transport of the future and because it offers a crucial opportunity to champion British design and engineering at a time when we need to fight as hard as possible in an increasingly competitive global economy.

We need a new British design icon to follow in the footsteps of Concorde, the Spitfire, Rolls Royce and the Routemaster bus and to reawaken Britain’s authority as a global leader in design and technology. Mercury is our idea of what that might be.

The economic and political benefits of a world-class high-speed rail network are clearly understood by all political parties. However, our work with Sifang, to design high speed trains for China and the rest of the world, has shown us that it is equally important to have a train to be proud of, in order to show Britain’s credentials to the rest of the world and to persuade people to leave their cars at home, eschew domestic air travel and make rail their first choice.

Britain has an unrivalled record of great transport engineering projects - a record that died with Concorde. If we are to operate in a global design marketplace, we need to re-establish that influence by producing world-beating designs, moving the British engineering industry forward again and giving the country a much needed boost.

But we also need to persuade people to travel by train to achieve a successful low-carbon economy. To do that, train travel needs to be as exciting as air travel and as sexy as the latest car. Not only does it need to be fast, it needs to be modern, luxurious, exciting and stylish. We believe Mercury is all those things.

About Mercury:

Mercury is a double-decker train with a unique interior design that we believe will revolutionise domestic rail travel.

Introducing an entirely new concept in the way we travel, the train will incorporate a flexible, open plan design allowing for interaction, space and relaxation without compromising privacy. Both commuting and longer haul journeys will be more relaxed, comfortable and akin to modern living, featuring traditional commuter seats (designed to incorporate in-transit entertainment systems) alongside private berths – for families, private parties or business meetings echoing the nostalgia of compartmental train travel. A children’s play area will be integrated into the train and a luxury first class section will mirror the choice offered to air travellers with a luxury lounge and bar.

The exterior of the train, designed to emulate those great British design classics, will be up to 400m long and the extended nose section will be one of the most extreme in the world - vitally important for the aerodynamics of a train which will travel at 225mph.

http://www.priestmangoode.com/
Most of all it's a concept to encourage the government to invest in a HSL network, plus it's an attempt to put British design back in the spotlight.
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Old August 8th, 2010, 10:32 PM   #462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobke90 View Post
And which manufacter would built this type of train? In the UK there are no trainmanufacters. So, it will never built.
Wow, that must be the most naive post on this forum.

First you will get the invitation to tender (ITT) which include specifications
Secondly all interested parties are able to tender (even if the company is know for bad service, like AnsaldoBreda)
Then you get the shortlisted candidates
After that all is reviewed
Then a winner will be announced

If the specifications indicate the winner must build the trains in the UK then a factory should be build, or an existing site could build it for them (Bombardier Derby)
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Old August 8th, 2010, 10:32 PM   #463
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In the UK there are no trainmanufacters. So, it will never built.
Yes there is. Unfortunately there is no money and getting HSR through NIMBYs would take ages.
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Old August 9th, 2010, 10:25 AM   #464
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Originally Posted by Republica View Post
i thought the route had been cleared during the upgrade, sounds like it wasnt though. and of course if it had i would have expected double deckers to already be in action.
Ooh I dunno, how long has it taken the DafT to lengthen the pendolinos? Yeah it hasn't been cleared though, at least not for european size DDs. I suppose W10 is large enough to create a DD unit, but it would have to be a bespoke UK size, albeit not nearly as small as our first attempt on DD on the Darford lines.

But W10 is about as large as its gonna get on the classic lines. AFAIK W12 is no taller, just has a slightly different width envelope around curves. The main objective of W10/W12 being the ability to take high cube containers on normal freight wagons. There is no real need for passenger trains to be more than W6 in height, although cars longer than 20m need W8 or above. Unless of course we go DD at some point....
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Old August 9th, 2010, 12:29 PM   #465
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Originally Posted by Maarten Otto View Post
If the specifications indicate the winner must build the trains in the UK then a factory should be build, or an existing site could build it for them (Bombardier Derby)
You're not allowed to put a requirement for local content in the specification anymore though.
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Old August 9th, 2010, 06:21 PM   #466
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Just think, with the classic rail network which despite all the under-investment turned out to be the fastest classic rail network in Europe in timing terms (well aware they have 137mph in some places on the continent but their junction layouts and station approaches prevent any capitalisation on the speed) along with High Speed 2 (3 & 4 maybe in the future?) along with ERTMS to increase speeds on fully electrified main lines (WCML only admittedly) it'll actually dare I say this....

Give Britain one of the best rail networks in the world amongst the number 1 spots! We'll have 125mph classic lines including cross country by then, 140mph WCML courtesy of ERTMS and no diesels getting in the way to slow things down like the ECML with or without ERTMS and a high speed network laid over the top with interoperability with the classic system. I know that'll be 20 years away but by accident I actually think it'll happen!!!!
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Old August 9th, 2010, 06:31 PM   #467
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p.s My only disappointment by then will be the likely fact that the ECML was never really fully electrified and so 125mph even with ERTMS won't be beaten unless all operators adopted new trains that will be hauled off the electrified sections and I can't see that happening! Sad though, the ECML had it all to play for at one stage.

There's just simply no way you can run a higher speed service with destinations to Hull, Bradford, Aberdeen, Sunderland, Inverness, Lincoln all running off 125mph diesels unless someone tells me it's economically viable to to use new diesels at 137/140 mph but I doubt it.

Shame the railwayment aren't still in charge - despite the cuts in the 80's and 90's that was the golden era for the rail network post world war 2 - HST's were running overspeed at 135mph much more regularly than I thought apparently, as were 91's, London - Edinburgh timetabled at 4hours 3 mins for 91's and not far off for HST's and without limiters on like now and I remember in 1991 I went to York and it was a non-stop service on an HST and it achieved the 188.5 miles in 1hour41 mins!

Today is pathetic in comparison with the above even though the trains are the same!
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Old September 10th, 2010, 12:52 PM   #468
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UK Ultraspeed

http://www.500kmh.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_Ultraspeed
http://www.building.co.uk/buildings/...004925.article

HS2 is the past, a wasteful investment.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 01:33 AM   #469
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Nice idea, but I do not really believe in maglev services as they are more difficult when it comes to providing an integrated transport solution. With conventional rail, it is possible to offer a train service which runs from every city which already has a pair of tracks to any other city with a pair of tracks, using high speed rail and conventional rail as the operator wishes (given that the trains are equipped with the relevant safety and electrical systems, of course). Eurostar used to do this until 2007, just like SouthEastern and their Javelin trains do today in the Kent area.

With maglev, that advantage gets lost. There is no way for maglev trains to use the classic rail network. This means that people have to change trains whenever the maglev reaches its destination which brings an extra inconvenience for passengers: if the maglev is late, they lose their connecting train which brings up travel times even further than the original delay. Then there could also be inconviences like incompatible tariffing schemes which would make the price higher than it has to be.

Another major disadvantage shows when the maglev gets closer to city centers: as it's a different system it can't use existing tracks. A seperate track would have to be built for approaching, for example, London St. Pancras. The station has to have a few platforms altered as well to be able to receive the train. In cramped areas (such as London St. Pancras, or Amsterdam, Schiphol, Brussels, etc) this is virtually impossible or it will take many years before the permission to build on a piece of ground is even acquired.

In short, I think maglev technology is great... but not really practical when it comes to integrating it in the rail network because of concerns I voiced earlier.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 02:09 AM   #470
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
Nice idea, but I do not really believe in maglev services as they are more difficult when it comes to providing an integrated transport solution. With conventional rail, it is possible to offer a train service which runs from every city which already has a pair of tracks to any other city with a pair of tracks, using high speed rail and conventional rail as the operator wishes (given that the trains are equipped with the relevant safety and electrical systems, of course). Eurostar used to do this until 2007, just like SouthEastern and their Javelin trains do today in the Kent area.

With maglev, that advantage gets lost. There is no way for maglev trains to use the classic rail network. This means that people have to change trains whenever the maglev reaches its destination which brings an extra inconvenience for passengers: if the maglev is late, they lose their connecting train which brings up travel times even further than the original delay. Then there could also be inconviences like incompatible tariffing schemes which would make the price higher than it has to be.

Another major disadvantage shows when the maglev gets closer to city centers: as it's a different system it can't use existing tracks. A seperate track would have to be built for approaching, for example, London St. Pancras. The station has to have a few platforms altered as well to be able to receive the train. In cramped areas (such as London St. Pancras, or Amsterdam, Schiphol, Brussels, etc) this is virtually impossible or it will take many years before the permission to build on a piece of ground is even acquired.

In short, I think maglev technology is great... but not really practical when it comes to integrating it in the rail network because of concerns I voiced earlier.

Although some points have merit, you are dismissing one point, mixed traffic spoils efficient usage of tracks due to speed difference between trains. Prime example is the Acela Express in the US.
It is much more efficient if trains utilizes dedicated tracks based on speed and travelers changes trains at mid way because efficiency delivers more punctuality and offers more potential to run more trains on a single corridor at one time, this is the basic principle of Japanese HSR.
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Old September 12th, 2010, 06:50 PM   #471
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palatinus View Post
Nasa is investigating the possibility of building a maglev space launcher..

http://astronizar.wordpress.com/2010...nary-launcher/

Last edited by joseph1951; September 12th, 2010 at 07:06 PM.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 12:00 AM   #472
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Although some points have merit, you are dismissing one point, mixed traffic spoils efficient usage of tracks due to speed difference between trains. Prime example is the Acela Express in the US.
It is much more efficient if trains utilizes dedicated tracks based on speed and travelers changes trains at mid way because efficiency delivers more punctuality and offers more potential to run more trains on a single corridor at one time, this is the basic principle of Japanese HSR.
I agree, you shouldn't run slow trains on fast lines (like Fyra 160 on the Dutch HSL) but I do think it serves a purpose to run high speed trains on slower tracks in order to be able to reach more destinations and thus serve more potential passengers.

Eventually passengers on the super fast lines want to get home, and each change that has to be made drives people away from it. Maglev does not (yet) give the flexibility that mixing normal trains and high speed trains does: being able to change destinations 'on the fly' because of infrastructural possibilities/limitations.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 01:18 AM   #473
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
I agree, you shouldn't run slow trains on fast lines (like Fyra 160 on the Dutch HSL) but I do think it serves a purpose to run high speed trains on slower tracks in order to be able to reach more destinations and thus serve more potential passengers.
Won't this bring the same result to the passengers?
The slow tracks will become a bottle neck for the fast trains and frequency of fast trains will be dictated by the slow tracks.
At the end it may save some money in short term but as traffic builds up you'll eventually need more frequency forcing you to build dedicated tracks needing more money then the amount saved.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 03:54 PM   #474
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No in practice this is not the issue. Take the UK HS2 example. The planned line is London to Birmingham, with a spur to connect with the trent valley part of the West Coast Mainline.

If this was Maglev the only market served would be London - Birmingham.

Instead we can use HSR trains over normal tracks to Manchester, Liverpool etc. Yes this requires a compromise with non-uniform train speeds and stopping patterns BUT, and here's the rub, build it maglev to Birmingham, you still end up with a mix of conventional trains on the WCML north of Birmingham. It makes no difference.

The next step is to continue the new line north - this is the obvious aspiration in the UK.

Having trains from the new HSR use conventional tracks first means the first phase of a new line will be fully utilised on its first day (in theory). Now, as the existing conventional line already has a mix of services nothing is lost by replacing the old fast ones with services from phase one of the new HSL (the new ones are not going to go any faster on conventional tracks than the old ones). Yes its inefficient (actually not so bad on the WCML, as I said the fast tracks are almost fully utilised by fast passenger trains - 9tph in each direction) in theory, but no worse over the affected sections than existed already.

In every circumstance where Maglev is proposed the pre-existing set-up needs to be the bench mark, rather than an idealised model. In this way Maglev doesn't show the benefits in most circumstances, and this is along the lines stated by AlexNL.

Only in places like Japan, where they have already opted for a Maglev-style non-compatibility (ie Shinkansen are not built to normal Japanese guage), does the idealised model hold. Similarly, Maglev is better suited to such point-to-point only corridors where the single line can support full utilisation of capacity, and don't require tree-like networks (France, Spain etc).

With tree-networks like the UK or France, maglev may ultimately work, but an entire network spanning the country would need to be built before the full fruits are recieved, meaning a lengthy period during construction where revenues back from the completed sections are very low. As I said, using conventional lines for unconpleted phases/sections means the completed phase starts earning almost full revenue immediately, whilst also relieving capacity on the conventional lines it duplicates - probably allowing for more efficient use of said conventional line with the faster services taken out, increasing revenue there. So, phased with use of old lines increases revenue on duplicated section from the outset (a partially used Maglev or HSR wouldn't), and earns revenues back for itself at near the masimum rate it could (again partially used Maglev or HSR won't). How important that 5-10 years of revenue is for the infrastructure managers to decide on a case by case basis.

I'm not ruling Maglev out, just pointing out how different it is w/respect to HSR.

Last edited by makita09; September 13th, 2010 at 04:13 PM. Reason: Edited for clarity although I'm still not sure I make sense
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Old September 13th, 2010, 06:21 PM   #475
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In addition, MagLev's system independence and vehicle track integration would make even the concept of running freight on the lines near impossible without a screw-by-screw redesign of a whole new freight infrastructure which the (comparatively) cost-sensitive, time-insensitive rail freight provisioners would baulk at.

Once the mystique of the HS badge starts to wear off and the owners start to focus more on income than prestige, sections of the HS line can be opened up without fuss, allowing higher speed locos to use the light traffic time on the lines to the best effect.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 06:38 PM   #476
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Japanese trains run on-time all the time.

This is a product of having a different gauge for the Shinkansen.

However, their system works because these cities have excellent systems to get people to the stations. Time spent isn't an issue when you have HSR running every 6 minutes or so during the rush.

Imagine a high speed mag-lev line running every 15 minutes from London to Edinburgh, with stops along the way.

Benefits would be reaped right away. After all, isn't this what Eurostar did for years? Gradually more and more destinations came online, but it was successful from the beginning.
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Old September 13th, 2010, 10:26 PM   #477
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Bad example !

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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
After all, isn't this what Eurostar did for years? Gradually more and more destinations came online, but it was successful from the beginning.
No, it first only had a high-speed line Paris-Calais in november 1994. It ran on legacy tracks in Belgium and England. The 88-kilometre (55 mi) Belgian high-speed line, HSL 1, opened on 14 December 1997 more than 3 years after service started. The English HS1 was completed in two stages. September 2003 (9 years) and November 2007 (13 years).

It is still serving the same destinations only faster.
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Old September 14th, 2010, 10:21 AM   #478
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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
This is a product of having a different gauge for the Shinkansen.

However, their system works because these cities have excellent systems to get people to the stations. Time spent isn't an issue when you have HSR running every 6 minutes or so during the rush.
Its a grim reminder, but it is also partly a product of town planning provided by the US Air Force. The UK did not suffer nearly as much in WW2, and the space required to plough a line through city centres is not available, certainly not now.

So unless tunnelling is opted for under Coventry, Birmingham, Stoke, Manchester, Glasgow and Edinburgh (add approximately £100-150bn to the price tag) a linear system is not going to happen in the UK, either Maglev or HSR.

Yes, it would be great to have one, with the benefits of being on time all the time, and it could support a train every 5-10 minutes if it did. But it won't happen, because it would cost so much more. The phased approach utilising existing infrastructure where necessary is a much more practical solution.

Last edited by makita09; September 14th, 2010 at 10:27 AM.
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Old September 24th, 2010, 12:58 AM   #479
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And which manufacter would built this type of train? In the UK there are no trainmanufacters. So, it will never built.
There might not be that many manufacters, but France and Germany are not far away right, and you have a train between France and GB
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Old November 15th, 2010, 06:46 PM   #480
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UNITED KINGDOM | High Speed Rail

Although we've touched on this before, we don't have a dedicated thread for HS2 in the UK, so I'll start it off.

HS2 is a proposed HSR line through England - eventually reaching Scotland - which it is intended will be able to carry 400 km/h trains of continental European specification and British gauge trains that can continue onwards on the existing network. It is planned that work would start in 2017, with the link to Birmingham open in 2025 and Leeds in 2040. (Yes, roughly 15 years to open the length of line that on average China is opening every month...)

This shows the routes of HS1 (light blue) and HS2 (dark blue).




A full map can be seen here : http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/hi...te/keyplan.pdf

The last government started the project and formed the HS2 company to study the options for routes between London and the North. They reported back, recommending a route that connected Euston Station and a new junction with the West Coast Main Line near Litchfield. Access to Heathrow airport would be via a new station on the Crossrail line and there would be no interconnection with HS1 (the line to the Channel Tunnel).

The new government has gone further, asking HS2 to study the case for extending beyond Birmingham to Leeds and Manchester, including Heathrow directly into the network and also linking the line to HS1. HS2 reported back last month, stating that a Y shaped network centred on Birmingham was preferable to a reverse-S shaped line passing through Manchester (which the government was previously thought to favour), which the rail industry had pushed for. It remains to be seen whether government policy will override HS2's previous recommendations on the other two areas.


HS2 : http://www.hs2.org.uk/

Department for Transport HS2 pages : http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/highspeedrail/


Much of the groundwork for this was done by the pressure group Greengauge 21, who did a lot to overturn the negativity in government following the Eddington Report with their own report in 2009. (Earlier in the decade, various groups showed the business case for HSR was very positive, but the government asked the former head of British Airways to report on the overall transport needs of the country...).

Greengauge 21 : http://www.greengauge21.net/


Unfortunately, the line has to run though the Chiltern Hills - an area of natural beauty and the heartland of the upper middle classes outside London. Although great pains have been taken to tunnel under significant settlements such as Chalfont and incorporate the line into the countryside in a sensitive manner, this has not stopped significant NIMBY opposition from forming.

While many of these groups have said that they started through people not wanting a new railway in their neighbourhoods, they have now taken a new angle by attacking the environmental justification for the lines and are suggesting that a 300 km/h railway could follow existing motorway routes (it couldn't).

The irony here is that the majority of the route follows an existing disused railway line that itself was built to wider European gauge, was designed to be straight and carry high speed trains of the time and was closed and removed in the 1960s. Had that not happened, these people would already have had high speed trains nearby as the line could have been upgraded to 250 or 300 km/h running, as has been done in Germany and Belgium.

The anti-environmental angle is an interesting one. Just like in Germany, some members of the Green Party have now decided to attack high speed rail for its energy use and increased emissions over conventional rail, forgetting that the ultimate competition for HSR is domestic air. Airlines have 90% market share on the London - Scotland routes and the alternative suggestion of just creating more of the same, low speed rail, will not do anything to alter this. One wonders if this is nothing more than vote seeking in the affected constituencies.

It is also interesting that the right wing press has now taken to publishing a lot of anti-HSR stories. While one could speculate that journalists or their friends may live in the affected areas, it may also indicate the first signs of the government not actually being that interested in seeing the project through.


Example anti-HSR news : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ink-grows.html

Green Party trouble making : http://www.chilterngreenparty.org.uk...EST-RALLY.html

Stop HS2 action group : http://www.stophs2.org/

Another stop HS2 group: http://www.hs2actionalliance.org/

Other Stop HS2 groups : http://www.stop-hs2.co.uk/


IMHO the pro-HSR lobby is now going to have to get a whole lot more vocal because some influential people are now starting to be noticed and are spreading FUD about this project. Fortunately one of our members has created a site designed to provide a focus for such a campaign and started a petition.

Yes to HS2 : http://www.yestohs2.co.uk/

Pro-HS2 petition : http://www.gopetition.com/petition/39524.html#fbbox

Last edited by 33Hz; November 16th, 2010 at 01:01 PM. Reason: Added Yes to HS2 links
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