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Old November 18th, 2010, 01:59 PM   #541
YesToHS2
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Any more supporters for HS2 in it's current form out there? The fact is, it won't be mag-lev so people in support of progress and who can see the need for upgrades should get behind the plans for HS2 as they are now. It's too important to let atavists "working on a local level" (their own words) stop it in it's tracks (pardon the pun).
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Old November 18th, 2010, 03:42 PM   #542
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobbo View Post

Should the French construct the LGV Picardie, Paris-London Times could be cut to close to 1.30m - which would make the train competitive on routes for Paris from as far a field as Manchester, Brum and Leeds.
Actualyl the train could already be competitive on these routes. As soon as trip times are below 5 hours train can get a share of the market. That's why DB wants to run a train from Frankfurt to London.
The biggest problem however (and what killed the Regional Eurostars) are not of technical nature.
A Paris - London - Birmingham train would only make sense if it were also available to London - Birmingham passengers. As long as the current rules for Eurostar however prohibit this the best we can hope for is continuing availability of through ticketing.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 03:50 PM   #543
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Originally Posted by Dobbo View Post
For somewhere Like Manchester could the mainline pretty much plough through the centre of town in a tunnel or would the Spur need to be used again? I am not sure of the arguments as to the pros and cons of each method (other than cost) and it would be interesting to hear some thoughts.
I think that will have to be on a spur too.

On the UK forum I posted my route for a spur so I'll re post it here.

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Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Reposting my GoogleEarth HSR network south Manchester section, Salif has PM'd me for it.

Surprisingly a lot of it can go next to the existing line without eating up much non-railway land. The big problem is Stockport, where I've opted for a tunnel underneath the station, which immediately rises out onto another viaduct next the existing one. Unfortunately this means the new viaduct cannot match the height of the present one all the way across, and may not look as pretty as it could.

Manchester Piccaddilly has a redundant section of the station that can be reused as a 4 platform 400m HS and HS International terminal. One or two adjacent platforms could also be turned over to this and extended to 400m, I would say only 1. It is unlikely XC services will ever need to be longer than the existing platforms.

Basic concept - HS2 bypasses Manchester much like the WCML, HS2 is served by a spur from the Crewe area and serving the airport. 2-3 tph to London would use this, 1 tph to London would go via Stoke. Stoke would then also get 1 or 2 WCML stoppers to London a la London Midland. 2 tph HS XC services would also use the HS2 spur from Crewe, and in my dreams these would also be proper HS units and the XC network is electrified and upgraded. The HS2 spur is 250km/h at the southern end, 200km/h through much of the southern suburbs, slowing to 160km/h as it nears the terminus.



Airport HS station underground. There is also a conventional speed spur from the surface station that joins the HS2 route as the mainline currently has no access to the airport. Ignore the pink triangles, they are for curve radius calculations.


Cut and cover through the motorway junction, allowing the road to be completed later if ever.


Along existing Crewe line. There is space either side for one extra track to make 4 tracks. The conventional line is shifted over to the southern 2 tracks. Demolished buildings are the red blocks.




From here I've also drawn in the conventional tracks, in red, to help explain the route.


Tunnel under Stockport


The (no doubt listed) building next to the river needs to go, the larger warehouse behind it doesn't as HS2 can fit over the existing road between it and the present railway, and the road remains as HS2 is above it. I've taken great pains to confirm that HS2 can go underneath Stockport station and still come out above this little road, and this is due to the height of the existing station above the river.




HS2 switches sides as the HS platforms at Picc are on the east side. Cut and cover tunnel. From the existing 4-track layout one extra track either side are laid down, and the existing tracks are shifted west one track (upwards in the pic)


Existing tracks then take back their current alignment, HS2 spur is to the east.


The existing Manchester airport route joins. In this concept they also then get an extra pair of tracks along side the existing lines. This is not necessary as part of the HS2 spur concept, but is part of my wider Manchester network enhancement.


HS2 goes up and over here to allow access to Longsight. The northern approaches to the depot also get an extra track (in red) and go under HS2 along with the transpenine lines.


This looks like chaos, as it includes the HS transpenine route, and a new Manchester Crossrail, which goes under Piccaddilly to Salford. The HS2 concept doesn't require any of this, but it explains the slightly curious alignment of the HS2 spur when viewed on its own. If the grand tunnel project is not built then the amount of land taken for the spur is less.


Here is another version showing just the HS2 approaches and enlarged Piccaddilly. Many of the existing platforms have been extended to 400m, again this is not necessary.


As you can probably see, the amount of destruction is fairly limited, with only one or two residences destroyed, and only about 5 having some of their gardens pinched. The rest of buildings that are in the way are warehouses, which are much easier move as businesses tend to be much less precious and don't care as much, especially if someone builds them a sparkling new warehouse elsewhere.
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Old November 18th, 2010, 09:43 PM   #544
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Yes To HS2


The case for HS2
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Old November 19th, 2010, 02:52 PM   #545
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...shire-11794586
Quote:
Staffordshire meeting over high-speed rail plans

Proposals for high-speed rail will be discussed by residents at a meeting in a Staffordshire village hall.
The county council said it organised the event at Whittington to gather information that would help formulate its response to the government’s plan.

It has said plans do not “stack up” for Staffordshire after weighing benefits against the negative impact on people.

North Staffordshire Chamber of Commerce has said it would be a disaster if the line did not stop in the county.

‘Points of view’

The council said detailed public consultation would get under way in the new year over plans for an initiative between London, the West Midlands and the north of England.

The discussion at 1900 GMT on Friday at Whittington Village Hall would explore issues for Staffordshire’s economy, the environment and local people, the authority added.

Cabinet member for infrastructure and regeneration Robert Marshall said: “We want to hear all points of view and perspectives, before we make a formal response to the Government consultation...

“We want to ensure that Staffordshire’s final submission to government is comprehensive and balanced, informed by local, regional and national priorities and perspectives.”

The council said the meeting was the first of a number of public events it would be organising in the months ahead.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 04:41 PM   #546
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Here we go again. The "it won't benefit me so lets stop it" protest. Forgetting the fact that the increase tax revenue, and there will be increased tax revenue will benefit the whole county. And why should the people that need a high speed no, just need a seat on a train be held to ransom by land owners.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 08:20 PM   #547
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I think its more of a case of "we want it so badly, that we want it stop at our place". Very different attitude compare to the Chiltern-type people.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 11:31 PM   #548
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Nimbyism isn't only in tue UK

Interestingly, when they were going to run a Shinkansen bullet train from downtown Tokyo to the then new Narita... the farmers were successful in blocking it. Even though construction had already basically started and typically trains run in elevated guideways (to maintain access to the valuable land beneath)

Of course, land owners have a lot of say in Japan and in this case especially, there was absolutely no benefit to the residents.

In the end the ROW is now used for an express train (160km) which does the trip in 36 minutes. It's the fastest non-Shinkansen train in Japan.. But Narita is 70km away.

The point is, even rail-friendly nations like Japan can derail plans if not all the stakeholders are considered. Most people just want to be heard and if they feel like they're being ignored they WILL fight.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 01:13 AM   #549
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Well some one called Adam Brookes has aka Adambro (Yes I can find and publish peoples names as well) decided that YesToHS2 is "insignificant and has no place on wikipedia, yet the links to protest web sites remain. Fair?

"(rmv YesToHS2.co.uk, insignificant, looks like one man's blog, that man being x (aka User:x) who has been adding the link)"
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Old November 20th, 2010, 11:58 AM   #550
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Quote:
Originally Posted by endrity View Post
I think its more of a case of "we want it so badly, that we want it stop at our place". Very different attitude compare to the Chiltern-type people.
One could give them a station. The Tokyo - Osaka Shinkansen has stations every 20 km or so.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 04:59 PM   #551
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YesToHS2 View Post
Well some one called Adam Brookes has aka Adambro (Yes I can find and publish peoples names as well) decided that YesToHS2 is "insignificant and has no place on wikipedia, yet the links to protest web sites remain. Fair?

"(rmv YesToHS2.co.uk, insignificant, looks like one man's blog, that man being x (aka User:x) who has been adding the link)"
Can you provide a URL for this comment?
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Old November 20th, 2010, 05:05 PM   #552
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I'm not concerned about my name being out, an article of mine was published with my name and is searchable on google. But when you up my name, user name and campaign together with a rather offensive comment that is what has p*ssed me off.

As my site can not be included I got him to delete the two protest sites using the wiki link policy back to him that he referred me to.

I'm not quite sure what this page is? It came up on a google search. Google e-mails when even anything to do with HS2 is mentioned.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...medium=twitter
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Old November 20th, 2010, 05:27 PM   #553
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I think maybe to counter the "one man's blog" accusations, you need to put up some guest articles.

I also think this guy is just a wikipedia busybody and it's not some deliberate editing by the anti campaign.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 05:34 PM   #554
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I didn't appreciate his tone at all. Think it's sorted now. At least I got him to take down the protest sites.

If anybody want's to contribute they are more than welcome. the blog is getting a lot more positive comments with people making their own points. It's no so easy to track down people who comment anonymously though to ask if they would like to contribute further.

from now on if anybody has an article or piece of research they would like to submit I will post it along with a credit to them. e-mails to [email protected].
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Old November 21st, 2010, 02:14 AM   #555
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...rail-link.html
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Old November 21st, 2010, 05:41 AM   #556
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I am sorry if this has been asked already but isn't there a way to upgrade the existing lines (which, if I am not mistaken, allow the maximum speed of 200km/h) to something like 250km/h or 300km/h in some stretches? Wouldn't that have a more profound economic sense than splashing tens of billions of £ on something that would only marginally improve the situation yet cost the fortune and would hardly deliver the economic benefit to the country? If my memory is not fooling me I have read somewhere that the track itself in some stretches could allow trains to go faster if not some minor issues with configuration of trains? Or am I wrong and the existing main lines to Northern England and Scotland are already working at maximum speed that can be achieved on them?
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Old November 21st, 2010, 11:46 AM   #557
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@33hz, a case of yet more scaremongering, I wonder who the Telegraph support on this argument? I just hope that people realise that these MPs are merely trying to save their seats, look which constituencies they represent, funny that.

@Pansori

The maximum speed that can be theoretically operated on the WCML is 140mph on small sections which wouldn't give much of a time benefit. The only alternative package put forward would cost around £5bn if you factor in the new rolling stock required. If that didn't work the next stage would be to spend a further £7bn. The WCML is too complicated and has too many different services operating on it, the WCML has longer distance commuter, local commuter and freight services operating on it. No amount of tinkering will even make it even close to being as effective as HS2 will be.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 12:49 PM   #558
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
I am sorry if this has been asked already but isn't there a way to upgrade the existing lines (which, if I am not mistaken, allow the maximum speed of 200km/h) to something like 250km/h or 300km/h in some stretches? Wouldn't that have a more profound economic sense than splashing tens of billions of £ on something that would only marginally improve the situation yet cost the fortune and would hardly deliver the economic benefit to the country? If my memory is not fooling me I have read somewhere that the track itself in some stretches could allow trains to go faster if not some minor issues with configuration of trains? Or am I wrong and the existing main lines to Northern England and Scotland are already working at maximum speed that can be achieved on them?
The primary reason for building the new line is capacity reaching limit on the existing lines rather than a pure pursuit of speed. Since you are building a new line anyway you might as well build it high speed with little additional cost.

The West Coast Main Line, which the first phases of HS2 is to complement, is running dangerously close to capacity. It has already received an upgrade, with Pendolino trains already running at 125 mph for many stretches. However due to the requirement to run stopping commuter services, a faster intercity service would actually increase speed differentials and reduce line capacity. This is why it makes sense to shove the intercity services onto a whole new line enabling more commuter services to be run on the classic lines.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 09:00 AM   #559
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One of the organisations that the "anti" crowd like to quote is Transport Watch. One of their "fact sheets" aims to show that HSR is more polluting than air.

The following is a useful investigation into Transport Watch: http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2006/08...e_rails_1.html


Also, they've been reprimanded for the advertisements in the past: http://www.asa.org.uk/Complaints-and.../CS_40464.aspx

Last edited by 33Hz; November 22nd, 2010 at 09:40 AM.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 09:45 AM   #560
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
I am sorry if this has been asked already but isn't there a way to upgrade the existing lines (which, if I am not mistaken, allow the maximum speed of 200km/h) to something like 250km/h or 300km/h in some stretches? Wouldn't that have a more profound economic sense than splashing tens of billions of £ on something that would only marginally improve the situation yet cost the fortune and would hardly deliver the economic benefit to the country? If my memory is not fooling me I have read somewhere that the track itself in some stretches could allow trains to go faster if not some minor issues with configuration of trains? Or am I wrong and the existing main lines to Northern England and Scotland are already working at maximum speed that can be achieved on them?
There reaches a point where upgrading is more expensive than new infrastructure.

Remember, the slower trains are the less people are willing to pay, the fewer trains you can run, and the more money you have to sink into a line that can never live up to its capacity. You have to pay train staff more money (longer time) for the same fare.

Long-distance SLOW rail costs a lot of money to run.
Long-distance High Speed rail costs a lot of capital to build.

In the end, High speed rail is far more future proof than upgrading the line.

An analogy could be made with airplanes. Is it better to upgrade the old less efficient 747s that you have, or purchase new efficient smaller 787s in order to avoid the congested hubs?

Is it better to eke out more bandwidth from ADSL lines and decades old copper wire, or invest in putting fiber runs into your city?

High Speed rail has to be seen as an investment, not a simple matter of a speed bump for rail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
One could give them a station. The Tokyo - Osaka Shinkansen has stations every 20 km or so.
Partly true, probably closer to 30-40km though. . Of course, only the Kodama trains make every stop. Nozomi makes maybe three stops the whole way.
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