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Old April 21st, 2007, 02:52 PM   #41
Andrew
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
After the embarrement that Changchun Train Works suffered in the past two days with the CRH5, I don't think anyone in China still have the guts to put any type of hardware into service without the most extensive testing.
Well if it means a higher quality product that can compete with Japanese, German and French technology on the grounds of cost effectiveness then that can only be a good thing. I imagine the Chinese product will be seen as the 'cheap option' compared with others for some time, but that's not necessarily a bad thing as long as they're reliable.

What exactly happened with the CRH5 by the way?
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Old April 21st, 2007, 04:18 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
train is probabley on the paper already, if it goes on schedule it should go into testing sometime in early to mid 2009.

For it to be delivered on schedule, I don't believe the rollout is going to be anytime after october 2008.

After the embarrement that Changchun Train Works suffered in the past two days with the CRH5, I don't think anyone in China still have the guts to put any type of hardware into service without the most extensive testing.
Please don't leave us hanging, What happened with the CRH5?
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Old April 21st, 2007, 04:33 PM   #43
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[QUOTE=Andrew;12769447]Well if it means a higher quality product that can compete with Japanese, German and French technology on the grounds of cost effectiveness then that can only be a good thing. I imagine the Chinese product will be seen as the 'cheap option' compared with others for some time, but that's not necessarily a bad thing as long as they're reliable.

[QUOTE]

No French technology yet!
CRH1 is based on Swedish technology (now owned by Bombardier)
CRH2 is based on Japanese technology (Kawasaki)
CRH3 is based on German technology (Siemens)
CRH5 is based on Italian technology (Fiat, although now owned by Alstom)
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Old April 21st, 2007, 04:46 PM   #44
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The Grand Central Trains press annoucement is leaving out one important detail: are these trains diesel powered or dual powered electric and diesel? They cannot be pure electric trains as the route from Northallerton to Sunderland is not electrified but all the example shown on this thread are a electric trainsets.

Finding out details of chinese trains is very frustrating but I cannot find any evidence that the Chinese are running any DMU's faster than 180 km/h. Can anyone site an example which runs faster?
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Old April 21st, 2007, 04:59 PM   #45
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will the Shangai maglev also be classified as a "CRH" one day?
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Old April 21st, 2007, 05:46 PM   #46
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will the Shangai maglev also be classified as a "CRH" one day?
Interesting question!
It depends who who owns the Maglev line and who owns the branding. I rather suspect that the province owns the Maglev and the Railways Administration owns the CRH brand. If this is true, the Maglev is unlikely to branded CRH.
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Old April 21st, 2007, 08:46 PM   #47
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It said it is dual power, 140mph on the electric sections, dont know how fast on the Durham coast section though (but the line is old and crap there anyway).
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Old April 22nd, 2007, 01:11 AM   #48
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will the Shangai maglev also be classified as a "CRH" one day?
I think Shanghai maglev is owned by a public-private cooperation, so no it is indepdent of other systems, CRH is owned by China Railways which is under the jursidiction of Ministry of Railways.
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Old April 22nd, 2007, 02:04 AM   #49
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the CRH5 wasn't delivered early enough to leave adaquite time for proper testing before it was thrown into service for the China rail network's 6th general speed increase.

The trains malfucntioned on the first day of service and ended up breaking down while running on routes where a delay of as little as 1 minute is deemed unacceptable.

Trains D27/28 that runs from Harbin to Beijing had so many problems that they had to cancel the entire route without any definate date for its restart.

Out of the entire fleet of CRH5s, there wasn't a single train that didn't experience delays caused by malfunctions.

CRH1 and CRH2 were also apart of this speed increase, and they ran without much problems or delays.
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Old April 22nd, 2007, 02:18 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trainman Dave View Post
The Grand Central Trains press annoucement is leaving out one important detail: are these trains diesel powered or dual powered electric and diesel? They cannot be pure electric trains as the route from Northallerton to Sunderland is not electrified but all the example shown on this thread are a electric trainsets.

Finding out details of chinese trains is very frustrating but I cannot find any evidence that the Chinese are running any DMU's faster than 180 km/h. Can anyone site an example which runs faster?
The anwser is no, China does not have any examples of Diesel Moving Units that travels faster than 180km/h.

Infact, these are the only two examples of DMUs that do run in China. And within the two, only the Shenzhou that runs the current Beijing - Tianjin rapid service should be considred as a true moving unit. The other one is basically two regular DF11 diesel locomotives reshaped to look like the end if a DMU and then stuck around a set of regular double decker carriages.

This is the Shenzhou, and it does look like the sketch for the Grand Central proposal




Another thing though, China isn't exactly concentrating on its diesel powered passanger service. Half of China's passanger traffic and all of its highspeed passanger service are electric.

The most advanced diesel locomotive in service currently in China is the DF-11G, and it is used on overnight long distance non-stop express trains (what they call Z trains). And that is only rated at 170km/h.

If the Grand central train is going to be diesel, then it could present a problem. Mostly because China have never seen a real high speed DMU.

DF-11G

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Old April 22nd, 2007, 09:52 AM   #51
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It probably is a diesel-electric multiple unit, so it won't be a problem for the Chinese to build something like this. They just have to build an electric powered train but to power it they have to put in a modern "low emission" diesel engine and a generator. They probably will buy such an engine from a dedicated European or American manufacturer, just like all the Western train manufacturers do.
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Old April 22nd, 2007, 04:25 PM   #52
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The Chinese manufacturers have a lot riding on this. Not only for the potential to win new orders on mainline serivices but the market for local and rural trains could be huge.

Back in the 1980's a lot of rural services were replaced with 'Pacer' units which were noisey bus like DMU's typically made of of or two carraiges. A lot of these are approaching the end of their natural life. Several rail franchise owners said they might be interested in cheap chinese units that cost a third of European trains instead of relying on mix and match fleets made up of cascaded stock from busier routes.

If they do prove reliable then a new market could open up. Though we won't see whole sale replacement by one train type, as the train leasing companies will be intrested in maintaining residual values on their newer trains.
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Old April 24th, 2007, 01:19 AM   #53
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When I was reading about this last week, this article in the FT contained by far the most information. Unfortunately, it's now more than a week old, so is restricted to subscribers:

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/53cce700-ea2...00e2511c8.html


It actually mentioned two Chinese companies who are involved, but I can't remember them, sorry! For me, the significant point was it said one company was to make the power cars, while the other would make the unpowered carriages in between. That means it'll be a true replacement for the High Speed Train (HST, Intercity 125) with locomotives at either end, and won't be a DMU, which to me means "diesel multiple unit", i.e. has a diesel engine in each carriage.

As a rail user, I hate DMUs. I'm lucky to live in an area served by HSTs to London and the Westcountry, and it makes me realise what a raw deal rail users are getting with the standard DMUs - noise, vibration, discomfort. Of course, all the government decision makers live in London or the south east, where they have nice, quiet, electric trains. I'm concerned that the so-called "Intercity Express Project" (IEP) the government recently tendered for as a replacement for the HST will end up as a DMU, so the announcement of the Chinese trains made me a bit more optimistic.

Other information I've gleaned about Grand Central's proposed trains is that they will be diesel powered (the line's not all electrified) but will have the "option" of upgrading to electric power later. The trains would be introduced from mid-2010, but only if Grand Central succeed in extending their five-year licence to run the service (which currently expires in 2011). Some sources also say the Chinese manufacturers have been keen to take a look at a HST, with the implication being that they plan to copy the design...
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Old April 25th, 2007, 07:18 PM   #54
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Yeah, I agree that the electric ones are more comfortable than the DMUs, but DMU's sound more like trains, do they? Come to that, I really miss the steam locomotives..
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Old April 26th, 2007, 12:30 AM   #55
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Quote:
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Yeah, I agree that the electric ones are more comfortable than the DMUs, but DMU's sound more like trains, do they? Come to that, I really miss the steam locomotives..
They never had separate steam locomotives under each carriage. In a stream train, you have one loco at the front. From inside the carriages, it's dead quiet and smooth. It's only outside you can hear the sound of the engine. Exactly the same is true of the diesel HSTs - on the platform, it sounds like a jet taking off. In the carriages, you don't hear a thing. By contrast DMUs don't capture the spirit of the stream train at all - the ambiance is more like travelling on a bus!
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Old April 26th, 2007, 05:42 AM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UD2 View Post
the CRH5 wasn't delivered early enough to leave adaquite time for proper testing before it was thrown into service for the China rail network's 6th general speed increase.

The trains malfucntioned on the first day of service and ended up breaking down while running on routes where a delay of as little as 1 minute is deemed unacceptable.

Trains D27/28 that runs from Harbin to Beijing had so many problems that they had to cancel the entire route without any definate date for its restart.

Out of the entire fleet of CRH5s, there wasn't a single train that didn't experience delays caused by malfunctions.

CRH1 and CRH2 were also apart of this speed increase, and they ran without much problems or delays.

Wow thats surprising didnt know Alstom trains could have so much problems.
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Old April 26th, 2007, 12:42 PM   #57
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They never had separate steam locomotives under each carriage. In a stream train, you have one loco at the front. From inside the carriages, it's dead quiet and smooth. It's only outside you can hear the sound of the engine. Exactly the same is true of the diesel HSTs - on the platform, it sounds like a jet taking off. In the carriages, you don't hear a thing. By contrast DMUs don't capture the spirit of the stream train at all - the ambiance is more like travelling on a bus!
Some steam "DMU" have been built, I think at least in Germany and Switzerland.
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Old April 26th, 2007, 02:50 PM   #58
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ive been on some DMU's that are really quiet, arriva trains have them running manchester to carmarthen, they used to be called commonwealth cruisers. Also, arent voyagers classed as dmu's? they're quiet too
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Old April 26th, 2007, 04:06 PM   #59
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Wow thats surprising didnt know Alstom trains could have so much problems.
These are not Alstom TGV's. They are modeled on the new ETR-600's which are the latest design from the Fiat railway division from Italy which was purchased by Alstom. They may infact be a victim of the Chinese desire to to meet a dead line for announcing the sixth railway speed up.
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Old April 26th, 2007, 06:57 PM   #60
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Bombardier and the Japanese met their deadlines, which are the same deadlines that Alstom had to meet.

The project wasn't forced up them, the companies bid for it and they all knew the deadlines. And the Chinese didn't ask for the latest design, the CRH1 is a very close cousin of the Bombardier Regina and the CRH2 basicaly a Japanese E2 with a Chinese style train hook and power collecter.

The only victums here are the poor guys in the Railway Department who are going to be sacked for something that is not really their fault.

Alstom (divisions) have had a history of missing their deadlines in China. One of Shanghai's subway lines (forgot which, there's only one that uses Alstom trains) was delayed opening for two years because the trains weren't ready.

And the Alstom subway trains running in China has always had problems with its doors, a problem that the CRH5 shared.
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Last edited by UD2; April 26th, 2007 at 07:09 PM.
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