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Old November 24th, 2010, 06:40 PM   #581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YesToHS2 View Post
It's interesting that critics use the fact that rail has 80% of the Manchester to London market. I don't have the exact figures on that market perhaps some one can help me on that. But surely the 20% that don't use rail adds up to a large amount. So surely HS2 as the potential to take 90% to 100% of that marker share alone.
There will be a lot of induced demand too. When the Paris - Brussels HSL opened not only did the market share of rail increase, the number of people travelling between the two places increased too. So you might just see a significant growth of the total number of people travelling, but only a small growth in market share.
For places further north market share might increase more.

Quote:
I think the maximum efficient tph will be 18tph even with the Y shape configuration simply because of the constraints there will be on the Birmingham London section. The added benefit of the European loading gage proposed though is that it allows for 400m long trains and double decked train which can carry up to 1200 people. So the scope for HS2 goes far beyond how many trains per hour they can fit on the line.
You won't be able to use European gauge rolling stock for services that go beyond HS2 however.
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Old November 24th, 2010, 07:01 PM   #582
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
You won't be able to use European gauge rolling stock for services that go beyond HS2 however.
Oh yeah, should of made that more clear. However two classic compatible trains will be able to be joined together to make a 400m long train. It would be interesting to know if would be feasible to have 2 200m units call side by side at say Liverpool and then couple them together to send down the line. In effect it would be just one 400m long train so would be classed as a single train unit.

The problems with stations such as Liverpool is that it would be uneconomical to extend them to 400m due to the land constraints but HS2 offers more services, an extra 2tph in fact so gets around this problem.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 01:53 AM   #583
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The European loading gauge brings so many advantages for all the stations that HS2 will have, as even international connections will be made possible - either by Eurostar or Deutsche Bahn. Liverpool - Birmingham - London - Paris, 3 times a day. I think a lot of air travellers would then choose the HS2/HS1 service over air.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 09:34 AM   #584
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Quiller Called In By Transport Sense To Lobby Against High Speed Rail Link

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Quiller is the second Westminster agency to get inv olved in the battle, after residents’ group Conserve the Chilterns and Countryside Association called in Foresight Consulting to manage lobbying earlier this year.

Foresight MD Mark Adams said neither Conserve the Chilterns and Countryside Association nor Transport Sense were expecting the Government to shelve plans for the new rail link entirely. Therefore, he said, both groups were focused on persuading ministers and officials to change the route, rather than on lobbying them to scrap the plans entirely.

Transport Sense does not have a website and could not be reached for comment, but it is understood to be backed by wealthy individuals.

Quiller consultant George Bridges confirmed the agency had been appointed by Transport Sense but did not provide any further details. Quiller is well known for its links to the Conservatives. Bridges rec ently worked alongside Chancellor George Osborne in Tory HQ to mastermind the party’s 2010 general election campaign, while agency co-founder Jonathan Hill was ennobled in June and is now junior schools minister.

‘It will be interesting to see if the Tory bluebloods who make up Quiller are willing to get down and dirty with Cameron and Hammond on this project,’ said one industry source.

The pro side - Greengauge21 etc - needs to hire this kind of PR.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 10:58 AM   #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlexNL View Post
The European loading gauge brings so many advantages for all the stations that HS2 will have, as even international connections will be made possible - either by Eurostar or Deutsche Bahn. Liverpool - Birmingham - London - Paris, 3 times a day. I think a lot of air travellers would then choose the HS2/HS1 service over air.
The most important obstacle to through services however is not the loading guage. It's the security regime imposed on the channel tunnel trains.
We need to get rid of the check in procedure and the luggage checks first. The rolling stock and infrastructure to run direct Liverpool - Birmingham - London - Paris trains already exists.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 12:04 PM   #586
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David Cameron: high speed rail link will go ahead

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-go-ahead.html
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Old November 25th, 2010, 01:29 PM   #587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YesToHS2 View Post
David Cameron: high speed rail link will go ahead

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...-go-ahead.html
I think it is very unlikely that it will not go ahead in roughly the form proposed. They key battlegrounds will be the precise route of the line through such places as the Chilters and, i imagine when the time comes, the Pennines and Northumberland.

I am still not convinced by the arrangements in linking HS2 to HS1 and Heathrow (and the timetabling of trains through them) but any choice needs to be made on the basis of the long term plan for High Speed Rail in the UK. For example, the Heathrow Spur should probbably form the start point for the new line to Bristol, Wales and the South West. Also, there could be two links between HS2 and HS1 - if HS2 is made into the "H" shape, the Eastern route to London could bypass Euston and link with HS1 around Stratford (with the X-rail interchange there) - for through trains to Europe from the North.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 02:39 PM   #588
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Making a connection with the Coventry - Leamington Spa line. Would allow fast trains from Coventry to London on the new line.
Trains could head on through Nuneaton, Tamworth and Burton to Derby, carrying on to Sheffield until the Yorkshire branch is built.
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Old November 25th, 2010, 04:00 PM   #589
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IMO there would be little point. It would require electrification of the Burton line and a new connection at Tamworth from the WCML to the Burton line which doesn't exist at present and trains to Leeds would take about the same time as the existing trains on the east coast main line. May as well wait until the Yorkshire branch is complete.
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Old November 26th, 2010, 07:05 PM   #590
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Latest article from YesToHS2.

It doesn't suggest that HS2 will serve the whole of the UK directly but it aims to dispel the myth that HS2 is simply a railway from London to Birmingham.
High speed rail coming to a town near you
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Old November 28th, 2010, 11:02 PM   #591
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Connecting High Speed 1 to High Speed 2

I have started a debate to see if it is possible to connect HS2 to HS1 for less than the £700m cheapest option stated by HS2 Ltd.

Suggestions so far are at:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=38733.

I have created some route maps bases on a few suggestions I had. They are over on the same thread.

Please continue the debate here if anyone has any ideas.

I'm hoping to open correspond with some one from HS2 Ltd with suggestions.
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Old November 29th, 2010, 11:18 AM   #592
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I think this thread is a bit unnecessary, as it is part of HS2 project and therefore I think the other thread you have made is quite sufficient. I'm not sure if you are aware but this is the international part of the forum, but in the UK transport section there are a number of threads and the issue of connecting HS1 to HS2 has been discussed at length many many times.

Also, you may find it easier to garner support in the UK section as there are more people reading who will actually be affected i.e. they live in the UK.
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Old December 4th, 2010, 01:54 PM   #593
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Transport Secretary makes his position clear:

http://www.birminghampost.net/news/w...5233-27762260/
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Old December 4th, 2010, 07:07 PM   #594
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Download the official YesToHS2 Poster and show your support. There is also a link to the independent HS2 supporter's poster which is beginning to appear all over.

http://yestohs2.blogspot.com.

YesToHS2 will soon be getting a national boost so look out for references to YesToHS2. Please show you support for HS2 and the YesTo campaign. Supporters should no longer be the silent majority. Experience tells me that there are usually more supporters than protesters but supporters as a rule don't shout as loud as critics.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 09:14 AM   #595
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The transcript of the HS2 debate is published here: http://www.publications.parliament.u...10112319000001

You can see that immediately the local MPs are not telling the truth, namely that HS1 was routed away from AONBs (it isn't). Or that the Tokyo to Osaka line isn't growing as fast as predicted (err, it's full up...)
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Old December 8th, 2010, 03:18 PM   #596
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Quote:
Originally Posted by YesToHS2 View Post
Oh yeah, should of made that more clear. However two classic compatible trains will be able to be joined together to make a 400m long train. It would be interesting to know if would be feasible to have 2 200m units call side by side at say Liverpool and then couple them together to send down the line. In effect it would be just one 400m long train so would be classed as a single train unit.

The problems with stations such as Liverpool is that it would be uneconomical to extend them to 400m due to the land constraints but HS2 offers more services, an extra 2tph in fact so gets around this problem.
Operationally it would be better just to send them one after the other ... with ERTMS they could be just 3 or 4 minutes apart ... and remember ... by the time they would have coupled one could be some 50km closer to the destination already.
On the other hand if the route capacity gets eaten up it will a common ocurrence to see doubled trains all day long ...



Offtopic ... some price checking today:

Manchester-London = 100*/131£(2h08/1h58) on 2nd class ~290km = 0,34£/ or 0,46£/kmkm
London*-AshfordIntl. = 22,6£ (1h30) or 27,1£ (0h40) ~75km = 0,34£/km or 0,36£/km
London-Edimburg = 117£ ~600km = 0,19£/km

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Old December 8th, 2010, 06:15 PM   #597
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
There reaches a point where upgrading is more expensive than new infrastructure.

Remember, the slower trains are the less people are willing to pay, the fewer trains you can run, and the more money you have to sink into a line that can never live up to its capacity. You have to pay train staff more money (longer time) for the same fare.

Long-distance SLOW rail costs a lot of money to run.
Long-distance High Speed rail costs a lot of capital to build.

In the end, High speed rail is far more future proof than upgrading the line.

An analogy could be made with airplanes. Is it better to upgrade the old less efficient 747s that you have, or purchase new efficient smaller 787s in order to avoid the congested hubs?

Is it better to eke out more bandwidth from ADSL lines and decades old copper wire, or invest in putting fiber runs into your city?

High Speed rail has to be seen as an investment, not a simple matter of a speed bump for rail.


Partly true, probably closer to 30-40km though. . Of course, only the Kodama trains make every stop. Nozomi makes maybe three stops the whole way.


all is True but with completely obnoxious reasonings ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
I am sorry if this has been asked already but isn't there a way to upgrade the existing lines (which, if I am not mistaken, allow the maximum speed of 200km/h) to something like 250km/h or 300km/h in some stretches?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
Wouldn't that have a more profound economic sense than splashing tens of billions of £ on something that would only marginally improve the situation yet cost the fortune and would hardly deliver the economic benefit to the country?
There's about the same amount of money spent in restoring/upgrading a route than what is spent on building a newer one ... it is even costlier to try and upgrade an old route wich usually passes down in the middle of well developed urban areas than to just simply build comp+letelly new around the urban area.

Quote:
If my memory is not fooling me I have read somewhere that the track itself in some stretches could allow trains to go faster if not some minor issues with configuration of trains? Or am I wrong and the existing main lines to Northern England and Scotland are already working at maximum speed that can be achieved on them?
Euston-wembley = ~12km long multi-track section with possible 160/200mph speed limit if desired

Wimbledon-Watford-Leightonbuzzard-Roade = ~85km long section of 4 tracks ... a lot could be made to improve this section
+ fly-overs (specially north of roade where the 4 tracks Diverge to Nothingham and Rugby)
+ regional rail stations (its lacking astonishingly in thise)
+ speed upgrades ... a dedicated HSR signaling and trackage upgrades to 250/300 km/h in some sections ?
In this section the "usual" 2 middle FAST tracks at 200/250km/h +2 outer slow tracks at 160/200km/h would void the need for a "pure breed HS2" in this area

Roade-Rugby (+ Roade-Northampton-Rugby) = ~35km
+ there's a NEED to build aditional tracks here ... 2x double tracks lacking in capacity ... in the direct route theres not even stations/platforms or even aditional tracks for faster trains to overtake slower traffic ...

Rugby-coventry-Balsal-birminghamIntl = ~35km
+ here I would just simplu turn the double track into a 4 track from Rugby to the edge of Coventry(10km) ... then build a bypass in the south alongside the Coventry airport(10km) linking with the route to Lemington Spa... recover the 6km of abandoned trackage that exists there and then quaduplicating the remaining 10km into BMI

BMI-birmingham = ~12km of very few chances of quadruplication ...


A completellyh different aproach would be to re.quadruplicate Birmingham-solihull (the space of the 2 removed tracks is still there) and then invest a large sum in a direct connection between Solihull and Balsal (10km?) ... probably a deep tunnel under Solihull or something like that ... and the old railway terminus at Birmingham is still there and the 4x 200m long platforms would be suficient for a dedicated Birmingham-london service

Removing those London-Birmingham trains from the ECML as soon as possible could relieve the regional rail and some of those "up north" intercity ... thus the HS2 could proceed directly north from Coventry(bypass) or BMI.

On the other hand ... if it is liberated from Lo-Birmingan and Liverpool/Manchester/Glasgow traffic then the 2/3/4 tracks ECML can start to be a realmajor regional/intercity corridor... instead of it's current state as a virgin-pendulino rush hour traffic jam (12 to 15 tph in each track)
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Old December 8th, 2010, 06:38 PM   #598
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 33Hz View Post
One of the organisations that the "anti" crowd like to quote is Transport Watch. One of their "fact sheets" aims to show that HSR is more polluting than air.

The following is a useful investigation into Transport Watch: http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2006/08...e_rails_1.html


Also, they've been reprimanded for the advertisements in the past: http://www.asa.org.uk/Complaints-and.../CS_40464.aspx
Let tyhem use that argumentations to support the Luton 3rd runway , gatwick space port or even HEathrow 6th North-South runway ...
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Neste salve-se quem puder a burguesia proprietária de casas explora o aluguel. A agiotagem explora o juro…"”
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Old December 8th, 2010, 06:48 PM   #599
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Well it will be at a stand still at most since there is no more room for potential speed gain due to economic limitation compared to other technology.
Cut the crap ...



the ONLY fault of the HS2 project is that due to being 100% new trackage it will mean that OUTSIDE of the urban areas they will need to EXPROPRIATE some farmlands ...


How do you intend to built maglev routes nationwide if you neglect the NIMBY and the exorbitant expropriation prices of URBAN areas ???


Aditionally there is not much to gain from a unorthodox and incompatible technology in a densely (and rescentralized) network such as it is the british rail network ... the only thing needed are a couple of feeder routes ... wich if things are done properly could only be ONE SINGLE ROUTE!

london-underpass-heathrow-BMI-Man.Int-Leeds/Sheffield

a big 300km "C" and you get yourself a major transport breaktru that you couldn't achieve with 1000km of maglev tracks ...

Quote:
Again the final decision has not been made.
Conventional wheel on rail cannot guarantee promise that had been made by HS2 limited either.
They promised for a 400Km/h train so they can mow through Rural England based on a future train set that may or may not come to reality. As I said 400Km/h conventional HS trains are technologically feasible but it is a poor choice economically making it difficult for corporation to invest.
If there are no train sets meeting the specifications as promised at the point of inauguration then the whole project would be a sign as a waste of taxpayers money for protesters which will condemn any further project for expansion in which case Britain will be stuck with a half baked plan which would not solve many of the promises made.
offtopic: MAglev is the dead technology in this discussion ... born at the same time as "modern" conventional railway (as in more than 100 years ago) and never saw the light of day ... If I'm not mistaken it is called stillbirth in english.
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Old December 8th, 2010, 07:22 PM   #600
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten Otto View Post
Cross country isn't even using their trains. They have 5 HST sets, of wich 2 are not in daily service and 1 is sub-leased by East Coast. Furthermore they run 4 and 5 car trains (22x class) where they would need 7 to 9 car trains at the moment, and 11 car trains in future. Will that even fit in New Street?

As for the Manchester to London route... Been there, done that and got the t-shirt. What a crappy route the WCML is. No fly overs and numurouse speed restrictions for junctions.... There goes your capacity. Okay, I live in Holland and we don't have 125 mph trains, what we do have is decent i frastructure that is maximised to run as many trains as possible by having 98% of jubctions made of fly overs and dive unders... Combine that to the use of hundreds of double deckers and you have a system that works.

The Amsterdam -Utrecht route for example handles 8 Intercity services and 4 local services per hour per direction... Then there are still 2 fast paths for ICE and other trains, and 2 freight paths in either direction.

Those 16 intercity's per hour consist of at least 8 cars double decker stock with a minimum of 800 seats. Trains can be up to 12 coaches long with around 1200 seats per train.

A race track is nice, but not if it's junctions force all trains to reduce speed and is not capable of handling high capacity trains so much needed these days.
you have a problem there ... your argumentation sounds good but you neglect the single fact ...



Theres some example:

17:13 Birmingham New Street On time Details
Quote:
17:14 Tring On time Details
17:17 Watford Junction On time Details
17:20 Manchester Piccadilly On time 5 Details
17:23 Wolverhampton On time 3 Details
17:24 Rugby On time Details
17:30 Glasgow Central On time 15 Details
17:33 Liverpool Lime Street Cancelled Details
17:34 Milton Keynes Central On time Details
17:37 Watford Junction On time Details
17:40 Manchester Piccadilly via Wilmslow On time Details
17:40 Watford Junction On time Details
17:43 Birmingham New Street On time Details
17:45 Tring On time Details
17:46 Northampton On time Details
17:51 Northampton On time Details
17:57 Glasgow Central On time Details
17:57 Watford Junction On time Details
18:00 Manchester Piccadilly On time Details
18:03 Birmingham New Street On time Details
18:05 Northampton On time Details
18:07 Liverpool Lime Street On time Details
18:10 Wrexham General & Holyhead On time Details
18:12 Tring On time Details
18:13 Birmingham New Street On time Details
Quote:
17:12 Glasgow Central 17:43
31 mins late 1 Details
17:14 Birmingham New Street Cancelled
Details
17:19 Birmingham New Street On time 11 Details
17:23 Manchester Piccadilly On time Details
17:27 Northampton On time 13 Details
17:33 Watford Junction On time 9 Details
17:34 Wolverhampton 17:40
6 mins late 3 Details
17:38 Holyhead On time 4 Details
17:38 Tring On time 8 Details
17:42 Manchester Piccadilly On time Details
17:49 Crewe On time 13 Details
17:49 Milton Keynes Central On time 11 Details
17:54 Birmingham New Street On time 2 Details
17:56 Liverpool Lime Street On time 15 Details
17:56 Watford Junction On time 9 Details
18:01 Glasgow Central 18:19
18 mins late Details
18:02 Manchester Piccadilly On time Details
18:09 Lancaster On time 16 Details
18:10 Tring On time 10 Details
How to increase speeds in those intercity trains if there's no capacity
How to increase capacity/frequencies in those comuter/regional trains if there is no capacity




Justo to prove the point:

(note: cmoning from everywhere)
Quote:
17:13 Manchester Airport On time 7 Details
17:15 Deansgate 17:18
3 mins late 13 Details
17:20 Alderley Edge 17:22
2 mins late 5 Details
17:21 Manchester Airport On time 14 Details
17:21 Preston (Lancs) On time 13 Details
17:22 Manchester Airport On time Details
17:25 Buxton On time 14 Details
17:25 Middlesbrough On time Details
17:27 Barrow-in-Furness & Edinburgh 17:29
2 mins late Details
17:28 London Euston On time Details
17:29 Sheffield On time 4 Details
17:30 Llandudno On time 13 Details
17:33 Manchester Piccadilly On time 2 Details
17:35 Southport On time 13 Details
17:36 Chester On time 11 Details
17:37 Hull 17:42
5 mins late Details
17:37 Norwich On time Details
17:39 Bournemouth On time 6 Details
17:41 Liverpool Lime Street On time 13 Details
17:42 Crewe On time 9 Details
17:42 Rose Hill Marple On time Details
17:44 Crewe On time 4 Details
17:44 Manchester Airport On time Details
17:48 New Mills Central On time Details
17:49 London Euston On time Details
17:49 Newcastle On time Details
17:52 Buxton On time 14 Details
17:52 Manchester Airport On time Details
17:56 Blackpool North On time 13 Details
17:56 Stoke-on-Trent On time 4 Details
17:57 Manchester Piccadilly On time 2 Details
17:59 Bristol Temple Meads On time 9 Details
17:59 Manchester Airport On time Details
18:01 Liverpool Lime Street On time 13 Details
18:01 Rose Hill Marple On time Details
18:02 Cleethorpes 18:20
18 mins late Details
18:05 Scarborough On time Details
18:07 London Euston On time Details
18:09 Liverpool Lime Street On time Details
18:11 Manchester Airport On time Details
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