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Old December 20th, 2010, 10:58 AM   #621
makita09
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jandeczentar View Post
But on a more serious note, I'm with the guy(s) who said this probably shouldn't be built. The priority for the rail network in this country is to increase capacity on the over-burdened commuter lines and that can be done just by adding more carriages for a fraction of the cost of HS2.
Unfortunately no and no. HS2 is for increasing capacity, so it is for the task you say should be followed instead. Adding carriages - not nearly as cheap as you think. The vast majority of the network - especially the southern end of the WCML, has maximum length trains in the peaks. The 4-car units, when run in 12-car formations in the rush hour are 240m long, the lengthened 11-car pendolinos are (will be) 245m long. Extending the trains will either mean extending the platforms (costly) or running trains with SDO (inconvenient for passengers having to walk up the train to reach the platform), and either way the signalling and points at junctions and stations will need to be moved and relaid to stop the rear of lengthened trains blocking points and signal sections.

These are all quite expensive, interfere with day-to-day operations (the passengers have already had quite enough of disruption - the WCML took years) and only achieve an incremental improvement in capacity. HS2 or some other new line is needed for capacity.

Many people are also unaware that capacity on the WCML is being improved in the meantime - but part of the point is that the entire industry knows that no matter what it does to the WCML it will run out of capacity around 2025, they just can't keep up.

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Plus, does anyone seriously believe that the cost will stay at the £34bn I saw quoted in todays papers?
HS1 remained within budget so why shouldn't HS2? The majority of UK construction projects are completed on time and on budget - perhaps the success rate is a little lower for govt infrastructure projects, but it is by no means certain HS2 would be a fiasco.
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Old December 21st, 2010, 10:50 PM   #622
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http://www.uknetguide.co.uk/Latest-N...800304390.html
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Old December 27th, 2010, 02:14 PM   #623
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How will HS1 and HS2 be connected? Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I can't find the answer, and someone here will likely enjoy explaining it, anyway.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 07:45 PM   #624
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How will HS1 and HS2 be connected? Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I can't find the answer, and someone here will likely enjoy explaining it, anyway.
Given that we don't even know the final route plans for HS2, this questions is a bit premature. Though most likely some kind of tunnel, like the one being currently built in Madrid should be the plan. I hope London doesn't end up like Paris, with many terminal destinations for it's high speed trains.
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Old December 27th, 2010, 11:00 PM   #625
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Originally Posted by Tom 958 View Post
How will HS1 and HS2 be connected? Sorry to ask such a basic question, but I can't find the answer, and someone here will likely enjoy explaining it, anyway.
It has been planned along with the rest of the route:

http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/as...r-rw-00021.pdf
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Old December 27th, 2010, 11:01 PM   #626
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Originally Posted by endrity View Post
Given that we don't even know the final route plans for HS2...
Well, the latest (20th December) plans are probably going to be pretty much final:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/pi/hi...sedroute/maps/

Can't see much changing now. The final plans will be after the new round of consultation, probably published in a year's time or so, but I doubt much will now change.

Euston will be the London terminal for HS2; St Pancras will be the London terminal for HS1. The two stations are really not far apart - 5 mins walk and already connected by tube. The latest plans have HS1 and HS2 connected by a single connecting track, which isn't expected to be used much. Most trains from the continent will call at St Pancras and end their journey there. Those that don't won't call at either St Pancras or Euston but will use the link and call at other London HS stations such as the existing HS1 Stratford and the proposed HS2 Old Oak Common.
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Old December 28th, 2010, 01:36 AM   #627
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London to Manchester in 100 Minutes

http://www.thetransportpolitic.com/2...ngham-by-2026/
PHWOAR!
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Old December 28th, 2010, 03:08 AM   #628
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That article's what started me questioning.

Thanks, everyone!
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Old December 28th, 2010, 03:48 PM   #629
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Only the first phase of HS2 (London<--->WCML link near Lichfield with spur to Birmingham) has been planned fully. This phase should start construction around 2017 (it will take a couple of years for the official planning process, compensation to be paid, houses and farms vacated, etc) and be in operation 2024/5. The next phases of HS2 are indicative only - one branch to Manchester and another via the East Midlands to Leeds. God knows when they'll actually be built!
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Old December 29th, 2010, 02:03 AM   #630
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Just seen that the latest plans still show a maximum line speed of 400 km/h.... that's 248 mph!
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Old January 3rd, 2011, 07:31 PM   #631
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"Plus, does anyone seriously believe that the cost will stay at the £34bn I saw quoted in todays papers?"

The £34bn figure is already over 2 years old if not more and this figure was given for a full London to Scotland high speed line as set out by Network Rail not HS2 Ltd. The critics have clung onto this figure to try and make the HS2 first phase sound more expensive that it is.

The figure currently being given by HS2 Ltd is around the £19bn range for the first phase, it was £17bn-£19bn but some additions such as more tunnelling, deeper cuttings and confirmation of connecting HS1 to HS1 have put the price more towards the upper range.

There is no reason why we can't build this on time and on budget if HS1 is anything to go by. HS1 was one of the biggest engineering challenges the UK has seen in decades and will go down as a UK success story. HS1 will be paid for by lease arrangements alone within 30 years without even taking into account economic benefits and rail fare income.

The question shouldn't be can we afford HS2 it should be can we afford not to build it. The detrimental effects of a overcrowded rail network could cost this country billions.
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Old February 5th, 2011, 10:02 PM   #632
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A couple of articles on HS2

Bullet trains to hit UK rails by 2025: report
http://china.globaltimes.cn/society/2011-02/619172.html

Quote:
The cost for 120 high-speed trains from Western producers, such as Siemens, Bombardier and Alstom is £4 billion ($6.3 billion), but Chinese trains cost only half that, the report said.

And another, somewhat less positive

High Speed 2 is ‘£17bn white elephant’
http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/gener...-2-is-17m.html
Quote:
He maintains that the business case is based on unlikely levels of demand, and that the West Coast Main Line (pictured) could cope for many years to come with a combination of longer trains and better yield management, which spreads demand in peak times so that fewer trains are so crowded that passengers have to stand.

So what's the situation with West Coast Mainline? Can it really cope with demand or not? The increase in speed alone would certainly not be a good enough reason to splash out such a vast sum of money but what is the exact situation with capacity and how it is being used at the moment? Or is the "against" case merely based on the traditional "no need to build anything" view which is the reason Britain hasn't got a HSR system and an incomplete motorway network?
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Old February 5th, 2011, 10:39 PM   #633
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Manchester Planner View Post
Just seen that the latest plans still show a maximum line speed of 400 km/h.... that's 248 mph!
I'm sure the top speed will gradually drop as the cost of construction increases.
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Old February 6th, 2011, 12:34 AM   #634
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
A couple of articles on HS2

So what's the situation with West Coast Mainline? Can it really cope with demand or not? The increase in speed alone would certainly not be a good enough reason to splash out such a vast sum of money but what is the exact situation with capacity and how it is being used at the moment? Or is the "against" case merely based on the traditional "no need to build anything" view which is the reason Britain hasn't got a HSR system and an incomplete motorway network?
The primary focus of HS2 is capacity rather than speed. The WCML is forcasted to be full by 2020 according to this document. If you are going to build a brand spanking new line you might as well build it high-speed at little extra cost.
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Old February 6th, 2011, 01:37 AM   #635
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Originally Posted by NCT View Post
The primary focus of HS2 is capacity rather than speed. The WCML is forcasted to be full by 2020 according to this document. If you are going to build a brand spanking new line you might as well build it high-speed at little extra cost.
So why is that Chris Stokes guy saying that it is possible to cope with demand by spreading peak time flows and longer trains? Is it really possible (if so he may have a point) or is he just from a different planet? Actually that sounds weird because WCML seems to have already been dragged for way too long as the main railway line between South and North with upgrades of all kinds having taken place over the decades.
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Old February 6th, 2011, 01:52 PM   #636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
So why is that Chris Stokes guy saying that it is possible to cope with demand by spreading peak time flows and longer trains? Is it really possible (if so he may have a point) or is he just from a different planet? Actually that sounds weird because WCML seems to have already been dragged for way too long as the main railway line between South and North with upgrades of all kinds having taken place over the decades.
IMO lengthening of trains and spreading peak flows amounts to tinkering round the edges, and the WCML is already prone to delays due to the big speed differential between the intercity and commuter services, and the lack of redundancy on the line. So yeah it sounds like Chris Stokes is coming from a different planet.
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Old February 6th, 2011, 02:27 PM   #637
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Especially as all long distance trains on the southern WCML are already 9 carriage (in the next few years many will be 11) minimum and some commuter trains 12.
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Old February 6th, 2011, 07:14 PM   #638
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pansori View Post
So why is that Chris Stokes guy saying that it is possible to cope with demand by spreading peak time flows and longer trains? Is it really possible (if so he may have a point) or is he just from a different planet? Actually that sounds weird because WCML seems to have already been dragged for way too long as the main railway line between South and North with upgrades of all kinds having taken place over the decades.
Yeah NCT is right, this guy is on another planet. All the studies done by anyone has shown that capacity is a problem on the WCML. What this guy and the other critics fail to understand is that if they think tinkering will mean capacity is OK to 2020 in contradiction to all the studies, then great, but what the hell do we do when we get to 2025, or 2030?

Its nuts a bloody annoying. The fact is all long distance services could be taken away from the WCML, and by 2030 its entire capacity will be used up by freight and 12-car local/outer suburban services. There is suppressed demand already as there are more passengers than seats in the rush hour now. Passengers have increased in the UK by 40% in 10 years, it grew 5-10% last year alone despite the recession, and looks to increase another 40% by 2020.

I don't understand the mentality of the make-do-and-menders, because make do and mend is something you do when there are no alternatives or an insufficient demand to justify the cost of new infrastructure. I think they should be shot for insults to intelligence.
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Old March 1st, 2011, 11:40 PM   #639
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More consultation documents launched

http://highspeedrail.dft.gov.uk/site...nsultation.pdf



Distribution of Passengers in London



Proposed network



Journey times



Service pattern once Y network complete.

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Old March 2nd, 2011, 03:47 AM   #640
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Congrats to the Brits;

Quote:
Government sticks with plans to buy Hitachi trains

LONDON | Tue Mar 1, 2011 10:58pm GMT

(Reuters) - The government said on Tuesday it would push ahead with plans to replace its ageing Intercity Express trains, keeping a consortium including Japanese industrial conglomerate Hitachi as preferred bidder.
........
........
There had been fears the scheme, which would replace the diesel-powered trains dating back to the 1970s and 1980s, could be axed as part of a squeeze on government spending.
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