daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old August 9th, 2011, 02:41 PM   #681
Jeff Hawken
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Crewe / Halkali
Posts: 101
Likes (Received): 26

Just took a look at the CAA stats, which are very interesting. Taking Birmingham to Parid CDG as an example (which you would expect to be one of the strongest cases for through running from HS1 onto HS2) the number of passengers in 2010 was 314,227. That is a daily average of 860, which is less than a single trainload. So even if you could get all the passengers in a 24 hour period from Birmingham to Paris and put them on a single train, they still wouldn't fill it.

Yes, these are just coarse averages, but it is difficuklt to see how you could justify frequent services from north of London through to the Continent on such a basis. Trains move large numbers of people on single-axis flows, so agglomerating the full market of a diverse range of destinations is not relevant.
Jeff Hawken no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old August 9th, 2011, 03:02 PM   #682
poshbakerloo
***Alexxx***
 
poshbakerloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London, Manchester, Cheshire, Sheffield, Moscow
Posts: 5,091
Likes (Received): 287

I'm starting to go off the idea of UK HSR...

I'm sure if would be better for all main lines to be upgraded to 140Mph running with electric trains...

And have call rural and commuter lines upgraded with a higher frequency and later running trains...
__________________
"BEFORE WE MARRY...I HAVE A SECRET!"

I <3 London
poshbakerloo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 9th, 2011, 03:08 PM   #683
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,543

and where is the capacity in the existing network for these extra commuter services?
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 9th, 2011, 03:11 PM   #684
poshbakerloo
***Alexxx***
 
poshbakerloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London, Manchester, Cheshire, Sheffield, Moscow
Posts: 5,091
Likes (Received): 287

Quote:
Originally Posted by sotonsi View Post
and where is the capacity in the existing network for these extra commuter services?
my local station is on the WCML...

There is only 4-5tph 1 local and 3-4 express (at the very most), I'm sure they could fit more in...
__________________
"BEFORE WE MARRY...I HAVE A SECRET!"

I <3 London
poshbakerloo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 9th, 2011, 05:30 PM   #685
Mostly Lurking
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,823
Likes (Received): 0

You don't live on a core part of the WCML then.
Mostly Lurking no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 9th, 2011, 06:36 PM   #686
poshbakerloo
***Alexxx***
 
poshbakerloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London, Manchester, Cheshire, Sheffield, Moscow
Posts: 5,091
Likes (Received): 287

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mostly Lurking View Post
You don't live on a core part of the WCML then.
I don't but still, they could fit more with changes made to signals...
Its not as if there is a train passing every 5mins
__________________
"BEFORE WE MARRY...I HAVE A SECRET!"

I <3 London
poshbakerloo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 9th, 2011, 07:24 PM   #687
Mostly Lurking
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,823
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
I don't but still, they could fit more with changes made to signals...
Its not as if there is a train passing every 5mins
I'm glad you are such an expert on signalling and train pathing. That is sarcasm by the way.

How does running an extra train on a section of the WCML that is not over-crowded help to relieve the sections that are crowded?
Mostly Lurking no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 9th, 2011, 07:59 PM   #688
poshbakerloo
***Alexxx***
 
poshbakerloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London, Manchester, Cheshire, Sheffield, Moscow
Posts: 5,091
Likes (Received): 287

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mostly Lurking View Post
I'm glad you are such an expert on signalling and train pathing. That is sarcasm by the way.

How does running an extra train on a section of the WCML that is not over-crowded help to relieve the sections that are crowded?
I won't. And thats not what I meant...The 'crowded' parts of the WCML are not really crowded...just busy.
__________________
"BEFORE WE MARRY...I HAVE A SECRET!"

I <3 London
poshbakerloo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 9th, 2011, 08:15 PM   #689
Mostly Lurking
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,823
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
I won't. And thats not what I meant...The 'crowded' parts of the WCML are not really crowded...just busy.
Hence the need for more capacity. Glad we have got to the bottom of that
Mostly Lurking no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2011, 12:37 AM   #690
poshbakerloo
***Alexxx***
 
poshbakerloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London, Manchester, Cheshire, Sheffield, Moscow
Posts: 5,091
Likes (Received): 287

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mostly Lurking View Post
Hence the need for more capacity. Glad we have got to the bottom of that
All lines are busy. But if a new HS line is built then the old WCML will just turn into the old line that no one likes or uses...
__________________
"BEFORE WE MARRY...I HAVE A SECRET!"

I <3 London
poshbakerloo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2011, 04:23 AM   #691
Sopomon
Hideous and malformed
 
Sopomon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 870
Likes (Received): 153

Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
All lines are busy. But if a new HS line is built then the old WCML will just turn into the old line that no one likes or uses...
What makes you think that?
__________________
And he kicked so many rosebushes at her that eventually, Sasuke turned into a log.
Sopomon no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2011, 04:38 AM   #692
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,525
Likes (Received): 21227

Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
I'm starting to go off the idea of UK HSR...

I'm sure if would be better for all main lines to be upgraded to 140Mph running with electric trains...

And have call rural and commuter lines upgraded with a higher frequency and later running trains...
Later running trains have to do with operating, not capital expenses, so it is not exactly comparable to HSR capital costs.

I think most late trains don't break even, and, at that time, motorways and roads are usually empty. There is really no reason for trains to, on a broad basis, run late, say, after 9.30pm or so, in most places, except on special events.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2011, 07:11 PM   #693
poshbakerloo
***Alexxx***
 
poshbakerloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London, Manchester, Cheshire, Sheffield, Moscow
Posts: 5,091
Likes (Received): 287

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
Later running trains have to do with operating, not capital expenses, so it is not exactly comparable to HSR capital costs.

I think most late trains don't break even, and, at that time, motorways and roads are usually empty. There is really no reason for trains to, on a broad basis, run late, say, after 9.30pm or so, in most places, except on special events.
I always travel on the last train Manchester Picc - Prestbury at 23:15 and its always busy, Fridays and Saturdays its standing room only. If they had a train at 3am Friday and Saturday only I'm sure that would be busy. They don't break even if because no buys tickets at that time as no one checks them...
__________________
"BEFORE WE MARRY...I HAVE A SECRET!"

I <3 London
poshbakerloo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2011, 07:15 PM   #694
poshbakerloo
***Alexxx***
 
poshbakerloo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: London, Manchester, Cheshire, Sheffield, Moscow
Posts: 5,091
Likes (Received): 287

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sopomon View Post
What makes you think that?
In France and Italy, I have travelled on both HS and normal intercity trains...

The HS trains are all new modern and running well, whilst the rest of the network falls apart with old trains running at very low speeds (60-90 mph) much slower than normal intercity trains in the UK which may only run up to 125mph but travel at or close to that speed for most of the route...
__________________
"BEFORE WE MARRY...I HAVE A SECRET!"

I <3 London
poshbakerloo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2011, 07:16 PM   #695
Mostly Lurking
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 1,823
Likes (Received): 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by poshbakerloo View Post
I always travel on the last train Manchester Picc - Prestbury at 23:15 and its always busy, Fridays and Saturdays its standing room only. If they had a train at 3am Friday and Saturday only I'm sure that would be busy. They don't break even if because no buys tickets at that time as no one checks them...

You are again showing your naivety I'm afraid. A service at around 3am wouldn't get a subsidy to run.
Mostly Lurking no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 10th, 2011, 07:23 PM   #696
sotonsi
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 5,543

poshbakerloo - we've had 125mph running for about 80 years, we upgraded the ECML, GWML, WCML, etc to these speeds and other lines like the SWML, CML, etc to 100mph running while France didn't have decent speeds on it's classic network in the first place before it built new high speed lines.

France built it's high speed network for speed, we're building ours to supplement the classic network by adding new capacity - the different network paradigm will mean that the classic network won't be neglected.
sotonsi no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 11th, 2011, 03:29 PM   #697
NCT
Not Cwite There
 
NCT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Shanghai, London, Nottingham
Posts: 6,204
Likes (Received): 1766

Indeed, and places like Northampton, Coverntry, Crewe etc that are bypassed by HS2 will ensure the classic WCML will remain busy.
__________________
My Shanghai photos - Nanjing Road, People's Square, The Bund, Xintiandi and more!
NCT no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 03:44 PM   #698
Dobbo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 1,451
Likes (Received): 256

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Hawken View Post
Just took a look at the CAA stats, which are very interesting. Taking Birmingham to Parid CDG as an example (which you would expect to be one of the strongest cases for through running from HS1 onto HS2) the number of passengers in 2010 was 314,227. That is a daily average of 860, which is less than a single trainload. So even if you could get all the passengers in a 24 hour period from Birmingham to Paris and put them on a single train, they still wouldn't fill it.

Yes, these are just coarse averages, but it is difficuklt to see how you could justify frequent services from north of London through to the Continent on such a basis. Trains move large numbers of people on single-axis flows, so agglomerating the full market of a diverse range of destinations is not relevant.
I think that the right figures to look at are those from Manchester, Leeds, East Mids, Sheffield, Birmingham to Paris as this is the catchment area. The trains can always drop-off and pick up at London...

Not having a decent HS1 - HS2 connection seems a bit of a waste to me.
Dobbo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 14th, 2011, 04:37 PM   #699
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dobbo View Post
I think that the right figures to look at are those from Manchester, Leeds, East Mids, Sheffield, Birmingham to Paris as this is the catchment area. The trains can always drop-off and pick up at London...

Not having a decent HS1 - HS2 connection seems a bit of a waste to me.
But it also shows that trains that do HS1 - HS2 through running to/from the continent must be open to domestic travel too. The fact that cabotage was not possible is one of the things that killed the NOL Eurostars....
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old September 15th, 2011, 12:00 AM   #700
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,525
Likes (Received): 21227

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
But it also shows that trains that do HS1 - HS2 through running to/from the continent must be open to domestic travel too. The fact that cabotage was not possible is one of the things that killed the NOL Eurostars....
I don't think so. Eurostar operates on a strict reserved seat policy, a requirement for using the Eurotunnel (to have a list of all people on board a train, and limited occupancy of the train in case a fast evacuation is needed). Moreover, it is good to have a differentiated service, one that implies you will ALWAYS have a previously determined seat.

Pricing strategies are also completely different for international travel.

Thalys, for instance, is a very successful joint venture and it doesn't operate regular domestic services integrated in the network whatsoever.
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
high speed rail, hs2, railways, scotland, trains

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium