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Old November 19th, 2010, 08:19 PM   #181
thun
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As if you would do so...
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Old November 19th, 2010, 08:27 PM   #182
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Originally Posted by thun View Post
As if you would do so...
But then thun is the absolute offender of all

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
In terms of the rail network, Germany isn't too different from Switzerland. Only a bit larger. The difference between Germany and France, the UK and Spain where all the main lines are centred to the capital certainly is higher.
...
Take a real look of what a desperate lying fool thun has made of himself in the "Stuttgart 21" thread.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 09:24 PM   #183
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thun is among the few whose postings are both sensible and fact-based in the railways section. most of the others are just posting rants and engage in dick size comparisons ("my tgv is fast than yours.....").

btw. he is right: German rail network, just like the swiss one, is poly-centric, whereas France's is mono-centric.
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Old November 19th, 2010, 10:48 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
thun is among the few whose postings are both sensible and fact-based in the railways section. most of the others are just posting rants and engage in dick size comparisons ("my tgv is fast than yours.....").

btw. he is right: German rail network, just like the swiss one, is poly-centric, whereas France's is mono-centric.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
Well, I don't have any data for the last post. But its not that such an argumentation would be too complex. You don't need data to see it,
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
I didn't say they have a few lines, I said that by a few lines (in numbers, not in length) you can connect all mayor cities, dumbass...
Realities:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Spain
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TGV

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
...
There are actually two major stations in Frankfurt, Frankfurt Hauptbahnhof and Frankfurt Flughafen. Studying the service density map of DB carefully will reveal that Düsseldorf, Cologne, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Nürnberg and Munich receive the absolute majority of rail services in Germany and Frankfurt is clearly the hub of all these services.
...

Last edited by aab7772003; November 19th, 2010 at 11:38 PM.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 12:41 AM   #185
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One single direct corridor in Spain connecting four of the five largest cities in the country (the sixth city of the country is connected by a rather short branch line). One single direct corridor connecting Frances' three largest cities. In Italy, one single corridor (will) connect five of the six largest cities in the country (maybe some day far away all of them). Where exactly am I wrong according to you?
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Old November 20th, 2010, 01:02 AM   #186
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Originally Posted by thun View Post

One single direct corridor in Spain connecting four of the five largest cities in the country (the sixth city of the country is connected by a rather short branch line). One single direct corridor connecting Frances' three largest cities. In Italy, one single corridor (will) connect five of the six largest cities in the country (maybe some day far away all of them). Where exactly am I wrong according to you?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AVE.png

The "single corridor" you are making it up was not built as "one single corridor" project.

Using the "single corridor" theory you have made up just to defend yourself can be applied to Germany as well.

One "single corridor" without Berlin for Hamburg - Hannover - Düsseldorf - Cologne - Frankfurt - Mannheim - Stuttgart - Ulm - Augsburg - Munich just starts looking like the most heavily traveled stretch of the Japanese Shinkansen network, Voila!



Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
In terms of the rail network, Germany isn't too different from Switzerland. Only a bit larger. The difference between Germany and France, the UK and Spain where all the main lines are centred to the capital certainly is higher.
...
"Only a bit larger. "
So WRONG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Germany
"As of 2005[update], Germany had a railway network of 41,315 km. 19,857 km are electrified. The total track length was 76,473 km. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_tr...in_Switzerland
"Network size: 5,063 km"

Last edited by aab7772003; November 20th, 2010 at 01:14 AM.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 01:07 AM   #187
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Neither was the one in Italy or France. You completely missed the point.
And why doesn't DB/the Germany government plan with it in your opinion?
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Old November 20th, 2010, 05:50 AM   #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Neither was the one in Italy or France. You completely missed the point.
And why doesn't DB/the Germany government plan with it in your opinion?
You desperately keep making things up to make "your point," which includes lies such as:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
In terms of the rail network, Germany isn't too different from Switzerland. Only a bit larger. The difference between Germany and France, the UK and Spain where all the main lines are centred to the capital certainly is higher.
...
"Only a bit larger. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Germany
"As of 2005[update], Germany had a railway network of 41,315 km. 19,857 km are electrified. The total track length was 76,473 km. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_tr...in_Switzerland
"Network size: 5,063 km"

In fact, they have been planning for it all along...

Cologne - Frankfurt
(completed; Frankfurt Süd ICE station was one of the many compromise casualties)
Frankfurt - Mannheim
(proposed)
Mannheim - Stuttgart
(completed)
Stuttgart - Ulm (aka Stuttgart 21)
(in construction; "common people" are rioting against it with bloody eyeballs)
Ulm - Augusburg - Munich upgrade

Last edited by aab7772003; November 20th, 2010 at 05:57 AM.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 10:18 AM   #189
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Huh? Suddenly upgrates like Munich-Augsburg are acceptable in your eyes?
Stuttgart21 is nor including the HSL to Ulm by the way, thats a completely different project and has always been. And where are the HSL plans for Cologne - Hannover if you would be right?

And for the last time, both the Swiss and the German network are polycentric (other examples are the Austrian, the Italian, the Portuguese and the Dutch network). Believe it or not. And learn to get irony for gods' sake.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 11:05 AM   #190
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
Where is the evidence of passengers clamoring for hourly system timetable departures?
I don't think that you will be able to come up with an example where the introduction of hourly system timetable has not lead to more passengers.
The observations are always the same: The introduction of an interaval timetable always leads to a significant increase in passenger numbers. Always. I know of no example to the contrary. But feel free to provide me one.
When a new product sells better than an old product it replaces the logical conlusion is that the new product serves the needs of the customers better than the old.
Hence when a interval timetable manages to attract more passengers you can conclude the same. I don't need to show you "clamoring passengers" to prove that.
It's quite interesting that private operators seem to like interval timetables too. The "Westbahn" company that wants to run trains on Wien - Salzburg starting in 2012 intends to run a strict interval schedule. Of course, they have to make money, so they have to offer something customers are willing to buy.

Quote:
Someone is clearly not doing a good jobs of separate facts from intuitions in the name of not weakening arguments.
Maybe. But not me. I seem to be able to come up with facts to support my arguments just fine.

One such fact is that two major Metropolitan areas in France, that are only about 220 km from each other and linked by a direct railway see less than on direct train per hour between them... I call that underserved.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 11:40 AM   #191
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
One of the realities in Spain is that potential of the network is not realised fully.

If for example Renfe would coordinate the schedules between the main lines and the branches better they would be able to attract a lot more passengers.

For example: There is an hourly interval schedule on Madrid - Sevilla. If Renfe were to introduce an hourly interval schedule on Sevilla - Cadiz with a arrival times in Sevilla coordinated with departures to Madrid they would effectively offer anyone living in between Sevilla and Cadiz a fast connection to Madrid every hour, and not only a few times a day as it is now.

Right now what you see is that most trains from Cadiz to Sevilla arrive there a few minutes after the AVE to Madrid leaves from there.

Now that is something you won't see in Germany. DB actually puts a lot of effort in coordinating services. The way the ICE services connect in Mannheim is a good example.
Transporting passengers in a speedy way isn't just achieved by speeding up trains. You have to look at the whole system. Going fast is only part of the story. Running often and regular is also important.
A transportation system is a network that a passenger enters at point A and leaves at point B. For the passenger it is important how fast het gets from point A to B, but how long he has to wait in A is part of the answer to "how fast". How many options he has, and having a lot of options that have a similar transit time and route is also of value. To a businessman finishing his business in Köln returning to Frankfurt the most important question is not if the train to Frankfurt needs 1h10 or only 55minutes. The important question for him is: in how many minutes is my train, and when will I be home. The speed of the Köln - Frankfurt train is only one element of the answer.

If I arrive in Bordeaux station at 12:40 it will be 16:51 till I'm in Toulouse, 210 km aways. That's not very speedy. If I arrive in München at any time during the daytime I can get to Stuttgart within 3 hours, regardless of when it is I need to travel.
Trains travel faster on Bordeaux - Toulouse than they do on München - Stuttgart, but passengers are transported faster. DB also transports a lot more passengers on that route.
DB plans on speeding up its trains on that route, and that is a good thing, but because DB never loses its view of the big picture gains in train speeds translate in equal gains in passenger travel speeds, something that is not always the case in France or Spain.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 11:49 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
Take a real look of what a desperate lying fool thun has made of himself in the "Stuttgart 21" thread.
Ad Hominem.
.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 05:06 PM   #193
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie
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Old November 20th, 2010, 05:10 PM   #194
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
One of the realities in Spain is that potential of the network is not realised fully.

If for example Renfe would coordinate the schedules between the main lines and the branches better they would be able to attract a lot more passengers.

For example: There is an hourly interval schedule on Madrid - Sevilla. If Renfe were to introduce an hourly interval schedule on Sevilla - Cadiz with a arrival times in Sevilla coordinated with departures to Madrid they would effectively offer anyone living in between Sevilla and Cadiz a fast connection to Madrid every hour, and not only a few times a day as it is now.

Right now what you see is that most trains from Cadiz to Sevilla arrive there a few minutes after the AVE to Madrid leaves from there.

Now that is something you won't see in Germany. DB actually puts a lot of effort in coordinating services. The way the ICE services connect in Mannheim is a good example.
Transporting passengers in a speedy way isn't just achieved by speeding up trains. You have to look at the whole system. Going fast is only part of the story. Running often and regular is also important.
A transportation system is a network that a passenger enters at point A and leaves at point B. For the passenger it is important how fast het gets from point A to B, but how long he has to wait in A is part of the answer to "how fast". How many options he has, and having a lot of options that have a similar transit time and route is also of value. To a businessman finishing his business in Köln returning to Frankfurt the most important question is not if the train to Frankfurt needs 1h10 or only 55minutes. The important question for him is: in how many minutes is my train, and when will I be home. The speed of the Köln - Frankfurt train is only one element of the answer.

If I arrive in Bordeaux station at 12:40 it will be 16:51 till I'm in Toulouse, 210 km aways. That's not very speedy. If I arrive in München at any time during the daytime I can get to Stuttgart within 3 hours, regardless of when it is I need to travel.
Trains travel faster on Bordeaux - Toulouse than they do on München - Stuttgart, but passengers are transported faster. DB also transports a lot more passengers on that route.
DB plans on speeding up its trains on that route, and that is a good thing, but because DB never loses its view of the big picture gains in train speeds translate in equal gains in passenger travel speeds, something that is not always the case in France or Spain.
So, is "system timetable" something new Switzerland has to teach Germany?

Another "reality" about the Spanish rail network is that Spain is not planning a network exclusively forcing travelers to go through Madrid with different stations in the capital.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 22nd, 2010 at 06:31 PM.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 05:29 PM   #195
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Huh? Suddenly upgrates like Munich-Augsburg are acceptable in your eyes?
Stuttgart21 is nor including the HSL to Ulm by the way, thats a completely different project and has always been. And where are the HSL plans for Cologne - Hannover if you would be right?

And for the last time, both the Swiss and the German network are polycentric (other examples are the Austrian, the Italian, the Portuguese and the Dutch network). Believe it or not. And learn to get irony for gods' sake.
Did I call "upgrade" "HSR"? No. By the way, the EU labels Paris - Budapest as an HSR corridor though many segments of the corridor are not 250 km/h tracks. I cannot do anything about it if the EU decides to call 200 km/h tracks HSR tracks.

I am sure that the Hamburg - Hannover - Cologne HSR will come in due course, but of course civil riots will slow things down. There were no mentions of Stuttgart 21, Cologne - Frankfurt HSR, etc. when the Hannover - Würzburg line was on the planning board back in the 1970s, but then the guerilla people back then were too busy with supporting the communists.

Infrastructure wise, the non-TGV network is NOT Paris-centric at all.

Lie 1
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
In terms of the rail network, Germany isn't too different from Switzerland. Only a bit larger. The difference between Germany and France, the UK and Spain where all the main lines are centred to the capital certainly is higher.
...
Lie 2
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
One single direct corridor in Spain connecting four of the five largest cities in the country (the sixth city of the country is connected by a rather short branch line). One single direct corridor connecting Frances' three largest cities. In Italy, one single corridor (will) connect five of the six largest cities in the country (maybe some day far away all of them).
...
Previously, you claimed that one single line would solve Italy´s HSR needs. Now, you have turned around and claimed Italy is oh-so polycentric

Lie 3
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
Stuttgart21 is nor including the HSL to Ulm by the way, thats a completely different project and has always been.
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21
"For planning purposes, Stuttgart 21 is part of the Stuttgart–Augsburg new and upgraded line project."
Of course you have lied once again because of your Swiss fetish.

For God´s sake, realize and admit the irony of your lies and manipulations of facts. I get the irony alright.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 20th, 2010 at 06:38 PM.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 05:40 PM   #196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
...
Maybe. But not me. I seem to be able to come up with facts to support my arguments just fine.
...
Your estimates, intuitions, empirical observations, etc. are not exactly facts.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 07:06 PM   #197
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
Infrastructure wise, the non-TGV network is NOT Paris-centric at all.
Well, as far as I can see, if someone else would have said such things you would accuse him to be a liar.

Quote:
Previously, you claimed that one single line would solve Italy´s HSR needs. Now, you have turned around and claimed Italy is oh-so polycentric
You really can't read, can you? I never claimed that one single line can solve Italy's HSR needs at all. I said one line connects five of the six largest cities (which is true). And the rail network as a whole certainly is polycentric. Do you have any idea how the network and the services look like?

Quote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21
"For planning purposes, Stuttgart 21 is part of the Stuttgart–Augsburg new and upgraded line project."
Of course you have lied once again because of your Swiss fetish.
Well, did you actually understand that sentence? It exactly says what I said. The HSL to Ulm is NOT part of Stuttgart 21 but an independent project. All taken together form a new corridor from Stuttgart to Munich. But like every other big infrastructure, it is divided in several independent projects in terms of planning - in fact the HSL from Wendlingen to Ulm itself is divided into three different planning sectors and could be well buildt without the new main station - hence it is an independent project.
(If you don't want to believe me, look at http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21: The HSL from Wendlingen to Ulm is not mentioned at all). Both projects are connected at Wendlingen.

Quote:
For God´s sake, realize and admit the irony of your lies and manipulations of facts. I get the irony alright.
Apparently you don't. You don't even get the facts right.
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Last edited by thun; November 20th, 2010 at 07:13 PM.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 07:20 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
Another "reality" about the Spanish rail network is that Spain is not planning a network exclusively forcing travelers to go through Madrid with different stations in the capital.
Mainly because Madrid never had several terminus stations like Paris or London always had and still have.
And by the way, the Spanish network often forces you to take stupid detours via Madrid, mainly because there's a complete lack of radial services. A fantastic example is the Alicante to Granada/Málaga route. You would be stupid if you would take the train there.
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Old November 20th, 2010, 10:02 PM   #199
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It is actually that you lie, struggle with geography and cannot express yourself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Well, as far as I can see, if someone else would have said such things you would accuse him to be a liar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
...
Infrastructure wise, the non-TGV network is NOT Paris-centric at all.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
In terms of the rail network, Germany isn't too different from Switzerland. Only a bit larger. The difference between Germany and France, the UK and Spain where all the main lines are centred to the capital certainly is higher.
...
"Only a bit larger. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Germany
"As of 2005[update], Germany had a railway network of 41,315 km. 19,857 km are electrified. The total track length was 76,473 km. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_tr...in_Switzerland
"Network size: 5,063 km"


Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
You really can't read, can you? I never claimed that one single line can solve Italy's HSR needs at all. I said one line connects five of the six largest cities (which is true). And the rail network as a whole certainly is polycentric. Do you have any idea how the network and the services look like?
...
Fact manipulation alarm:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
Wrong. In countries like Spain, Italy, and Japan, and even to some point France, you can build one or two lines and connect basically all the very important cities of a country. You can't do that in Germany. So if you want to improve service quality for all those cities, you have to find another feasible solution.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
And for the last time, both the Swiss and the German network are polycentric (other examples are the Austrian, the Italian, the Portuguese and the Dutch network). Believe it or not. And learn to get irony for gods' sake.
...

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
Well, did you actually understand that sentence? It exactly says what I said. The HSL to Ulm is NOT part of Stuttgart 21 but an independent project. All taken together form a new corridor from Stuttgart to Munich. But like every other big infrastructure, it is divided in several independent projects in terms of planning - in fact the HSL from Wendlingen to Ulm itself is divided into three different planning sectors and could be well buildt without the new main station - hence it is an independent project.
(If you don't want to believe me, look at http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21: The HSL from Wendlingen to Ulm is not mentioned at all). Both projects are connected at Wendlingen.

...
I did and have found out once again how much you love to label your interpretations as facts. Using the logic defined by your ego, the construction of the ICE station at STR is a project by itself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21
"For planning purposes, Stuttgart 21 is part of the Stuttgart–Augsburg new and upgraded line project."

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Mainly because Madrid never had several terminus stations like Paris or London always had and still have.
And by the way, the Spanish network often forces you to take stupid detours via Madrid, mainly because there's a complete lack of radial services. A fantastic example is the Alicante to Granada/Málaga route. You would be stupid if you would take the train there.
Isn´t the absence of multiple terminus a reality?
We all know that schedules and connections often do not take advantage of the potentials of the existing infrastructure.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 25th, 2010 at 06:37 PM.
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Old November 21st, 2010, 01:02 AM   #200
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21
"For planning purposes, Stuttgart 21 is part of the Stuttgart–Augsburg new and upgraded line project."
Once again. That sentence says exactly the same as I do. Stuttgart 21 is one element of the Stuttgart - Augsburg (-Munich) upgrate. The HSL from Wendlingen (where it connects to Stuttgart21) to Ulm is another element. The third is Neu-Ulm21, the fourth the upgrate of the line from Neu-Ulm to Augsburg. And of course, every single element could work on its own without the others as well (if it doesn't do so already!).
You're a liar (if we stick to your ken) if you claim something else.
However, if you want to claim to have a serious opinion, you should know such basic facts. If you don't want to believe neither me nor the Wikipedia, you can read exactly the same in that document by the Ministry of Transport: http://dipbt.bundestag.de/dip21/btd/17/004/1700444.pdf (from page 80 on).

And regarding everything else: Dream on!
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Last edited by thun; November 21st, 2010 at 01:50 AM.
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