daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 21st, 2010, 01:15 AM   #201
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

The German HSL network:

blue = upgrated tracks, 200 to 230 kph, yellow = new tracks, 250/280 kph, red = new tracks, 300 kph, grey = conventional tracks used by ICEs (?) up to 160kph
The lines planned/under constructions aren't shown. The combinated upgrated/new line from Karlsruhe to Basel and the new line (for 300kph) from Nuremberg to Leipzig are under construction. Stuttgart-Ulm will be 250kph.
A complete list of German "Schnellfahrstrecken" (existing, u/c, planned and projected) can be foundt here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnell...ke#Deutschland

The first two real HSLs were Mannheim - Stuttgart and Hannover - Würzburg, opened in 1991. At that point of time, there existed already about 1.000km of upgrated lines allowing speeds of 200kph.

A remarkable feature of the German HSLs is the high percentage of bridges and tunnels (up to 50% on the Ebersfelde-Erfurt line) due to the mountaineous terrain.
That is due to the fact that new lines were buildt where most can be gained (reduction of travel time or higher capacity for freight trains due to longer and heavier trains) - mainly in the mountaineous regions. That's why Mannheim-Stuttgart (cutting through the Northern Black Forest) was buildt as a new line whereas the flat section between Mannheim and Frankfurt was "only" updated - there wasn't much to gain out of it, the extra money which a new line would have costed was better invested elsewhere (as on a rather flat and straight conventional track, it is easy to get trains to top speeds of 200kph whereas it is impossible to do so on a hilly line with narrow curves - a completely new line is often the better alternative and the worth the money). That is up to today one feature of German planning: build the new line where its mountaineous, upgrate the existing tracks where it's flat (good examples are Munich-Nuremberg, Nuremberg-Berlin and Stuttgart-Augsburg). Therefore, more lines were speeded up with the same funds.
Critics might say that there is no real German HSL network up to today but it has several isolated stretches, but one has to understand that there actually is a logic behind the network planning which is applied for the whole high speed network.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________

Last edited by thun; November 21st, 2010 at 01:22 AM.
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 21st, 2010, 01:41 AM   #202
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Th liar is lying again.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Once again. That sentence says exactly the same as I do. Stuttgart 21 is one element of the Stuttgart - Augsburg (-Munich) upgrate. The HSL from Wendlingen (where it connects to Stuttgart21) to Ulm is another element. The third is Neu-Ulm21, the fourth the upgrate of the line from Neu-Ullm to Augsburg.
Your a liar (if we stick to your ken) if you claim something else.
However, if you want to claim to have a serious opinion, you should know such basic facts.

And regarding everything else: Dream on!
I know someone else thinks his opinions are more than serious but actually authoritative facts. Here comes my opinions. There would be no Stuttgart 21 and the associated HSR tracks altogether if all these projects had not been conceived together from the beginning.

Unfortunately, your "opinions" are down-right confused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
Wrong. In countries like Spain, Italy, and Japan, and even to some point France, you can build one or two lines and connect basically all the very important cities of a country. You can't do that in Germany. So if you want to improve service quality for all those cities, you have to find another feasible solution.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
And for the last time, both the Swiss and the German network are polycentric (other examples are the Austrian, the Italian, the Portuguese and the Dutch network). Believe it or not. And learn to get irony for gods' sake.
...
Another fact I do not know very well is that your Swiss dream turns you on big time LOL

Last edited by aab7772003; November 21st, 2010 at 03:56 PM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 01:49 AM   #203
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
That's why Mannheim-Stuttgart (cutting through the Northern Black Forest) was buildt as a new line whereas the flat section between Mannheim and Frankfurt was "only" updated - there wasn't much to gain out of it, the extra money which a new line would have costed was better invested elsewhere (as on a rather flat and straight conventional track, it is easy to get trains to top speeds of 200kph whereas it is impossible to do so on a hilly line with narrow curves - a completely new line is often the better alternative and the worth the money). ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfu...-speed_railway

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
... That is up to today one feature of German planning: build the new line where its mountaineous, upgrate the existing tracks where it's flat (good examples are Munich-Nuremberg, Nuremberg-Berlin and Stuttgart-Augsburg). Therefore, more lines were speeded up with the same funds.
Critics might say that there is no real German HSL network up to today but it has several isolated stretches, but one has to understand that there actually is a logic behind the network planning which is applied for the whole high speed network.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurembe...-speed_railway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanover...-speed_railway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurembe...-speed_railway

"Stuttgart–Augsburg new and upgraded railway"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttga...graded_railway

The so-called logic is actually a series of political compromises.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
thun is among the few whose postings are both sensible and fact-based...
So many opinions built into the so-called facts presented. It is so obvious for everyone to see now that it is really about spreading opinions with tibits of facts peppered in.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 21st, 2010 at 07:33 PM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 01:58 AM   #204
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

Proposed. The future is not the past. You should have learned that in the first grade.
I wrote about the past, of course the missing links can be added some day.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 02:07 AM   #205
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Proposed. The future is not the past. You should have learned that in the first grade.
I wrote about the past, of course the missing links can be added some day.
You "should have" improved your English.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...mountaineous regions...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
buildt where
...
where its mountaineous, upgrate...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
... would have costed was better invested elsewhere...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
... speeded up with the same funds....
???

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
Your a liar (if we stick to your ken) if you claim something else.
...

Last edited by aab7772003; November 21st, 2010 at 03:55 PM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 11:15 AM   #206
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,885
Likes (Received): 296



This map is deceiving. Lines appear faster on this map than they really are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
The German HSL network:
blue = upgrated tracks, up to 200 to 230 kph, yellow = new tracks, up to 250/280 kph, red = new tracks, 300 kph, grey = conventional tracks used by ICEs (?) up to 160kph
The lines planned/under constructions aren't shown. The combinated upgrated/new line from Karlsruhe to Basel and the new line (for 300kph) from Nuremberg to Leipzig are under construction. Stuttgart-Ulm will be 250kph.
A complete list of German "Schnellfahrstrecken" (existing, u/c, planned and projected) can be foundt here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnell...ke#Deutschland
I marked a few important corrections. It is necessary to understand that even these high speed stretches don't provide one constant vmax throughout its entire length. At least not in all cases. Speed restriction were often build-in right from the beginning.

300 km/h from Nürnberg to Leipzig would be too good to be true. In fact it will contain two high speed stretches which will allow speeds of up to 300 km/h. But average travel speed will struggle to reach the 150 km/h mark.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
The first two real HSLs were Mannheim - Stuttgart and Hannover - Würzburg, opened in 1991.
There is another misapprehension. In terms of high speed Hannover-Würzburg is not one but four separated lines. Connected only by slow passages through stations in built-up areas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
A remarkable feature of the German HSLs is the high percentage of bridges and tunnels (up to 50% on the Ebersfelde-Erfurt line) due to the mountaineous terrain.
That is due to the fact that new lines were buildt where most can be gained (reduction of travel time or higher capacity for freight trains due to longer and heavier trains) - mainly in the mountaineous regions. That's why Mannheim-Stuttgart (cutting through the Northern Black Forest) was buildt as a new line whereas the flat section between Mannheim and Frankfurt was "only" updated - there wasn't much to gain out of it, the extra money which a new line would have costed was better invested elsewhere (as on a rather flat and straight conventional track, it is easy to get trains to top speeds of 200kph whereas it is impossible to do so on a hilly line with narrow curves - a completely new line is often the better alternative and the worth the money). That is up to today one feature of German planning: build the new line where its mountaineous, upgrate the existing tracks where it's flat (good examples are Munich-Nuremberg, Nuremberg-Berlin and Stuttgart-Augsburg). Therefore, more lines were speeded up with the same funds.
This concept, however, has some flaws. The lack of uncompromised high speed lines means track sharing of fast, medium and slow services. This constrains traffic volume and reduces reliability. And the network is nowhere really fast to tackle air travel.

Instead of a proper high speed network we get airport expansions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Critics might say that there is no real German HSL network up to today but it has several isolated stretches, but one has to understand that there actually is a logic behind the network planning which is applied for the whole high speed network.
There is no logic behind it. This is the result of provincialism and short-sightedness.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 03:58 PM   #207
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
There is no logic behind it. This is the result of provincialism and short-sightedness.
One of the by-products of the supposedly all-perfect "Swiss Concept," which some claim that everyone else is supposedly to be so jealous about. Do not forget such concept comes with the "I will take this route down if you do not stop at my farm" side effect.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 22nd, 2010 at 03:18 PM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 06:52 PM   #208
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

Well, there's a logic behind it and the network design follows general rules. Of course, one can agree with it or not.


@aab123: Proove my point wrong, not my grammar.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 07:34 PM   #209
derUlukai
✪ ALPHA-KEVIN ✪
 
derUlukai's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,444
Likes (Received): 5334

fact is, the fastest trains hannover-würzburg still need slightly more then 2hours for a distance of 327km.. if the trains would not be forced to run with about 100kph through some smalltown trainstations (so that most trains even stop there, because the difference from such a slowdown to an additional stop isn`t that much..), trains could run the whole route in less then 75minutes..
so yes, the german "highspeed"-rail-approve sucks.. no wonder that most people only take the train if they have no other choices, and you are even faster with your own car..
derUlukai no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 07:36 PM   #210
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
@aab123: Proove my point wrong, not my grammar.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
You "should have" improved your English.
...
It is truly someone who fails in the English language, logic, geography, reading skills. It is also someone who lies nonstop without realizing and admitting it.

In the meantime, refer to post nos. 45 and 49.

Here is one of the ever growing examples:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
In terms of the rail network, Germany isn't too different from Switzerland. Only a bit larger. The difference between Germany and France, the UK and Spain where all the main lines are centred to the capital certainly is higher.
...
"Only a bit larger. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Germany
"As of 2005[update], Germany had a railway network of 41,315 km. 19,857 km are electrified. The total track length was 76,473 km. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_tr...in_Switzerland
"Network size: 5,063 km"

Last edited by aab7772003; November 21st, 2010 at 10:06 PM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 08:28 PM   #211
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

If you like to refer to previous posts, you might allow me to refer to post 54 of this thread.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 10:05 PM   #212
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
If you like to refer to previous posts, you might allow me to refer to post 54 of this thread.
Post nos. 45 and 49 answer post no. 54.

These posts show that someone just loves to pass opinions as facts.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 10:16 PM   #213
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

Well, not really. You didn't prove me wrong. Seriously, I don't mind if you do so. Don't be considerate of me.
The one who most loves to pass opinions as facts is you.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 10:41 PM   #214
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Well, not really. You didn't prove me wrong. Seriously, I don't mind if you do so. Don't be considerate of me.
The one who most loves to pass opinions as facts is you.
You are the master of such art. In fact, you do mind it very much and have consequently decided to pretend as if none of your shenanigans have been exposed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
... That is up to today one feature of German planning: build the new line where its mountaineous, upgrate the existing tracks where it's flat (good examples are Munich-Nuremberg, Nuremberg-Berlin and Stuttgart-Augsburg). Therefore, more lines were speeded up with the same funds.
Critics might say that there is no real German HSL network up to today but it has several isolated stretches, but one has to understand that there actually is a logic behind the network planning which is applied for the whole high speed network.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurembe...-speed_railway

"The Nuremberg-Munich high-speed railway line is a German high-speed railway 171 km (106 mi) in length. It links the two largest cities in Bavaria, Nuremberg and Munich.

The northern section, between Nuremberg and Ingolstadt, is a new 300 km/h (186 mph) track built from scratch between 1998 and 2006. It is 90.1 km (56.0 mi) in length with nine tunnels (total length: 27 km/17 mi). In order to minimize damage to the environment, it runs for the most part right next to Bundesautobahn 9.
..."

The new tracks do not run through the "mountainous" areas.

The "mountainous" areas are south of Munich.

Such a masterpiece example is simply priceless:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
In terms of the rail network, Germany isn't too different from Switzerland. Only a bit larger. The difference between Germany and France, the UK and Spain where all the main lines are centred to the capital certainly is higher.
...
"Only a bit larger. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Germany
"As of 2005[update], Germany had a railway network of 41,315 km. 19,857 km are electrified. The total track length was 76,473 km. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_tr...in_Switzerland
"Network size: 5,063 km"

Last edited by aab7772003; November 21st, 2010 at 11:01 PM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 11:10 PM   #215
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

Erm... did you ever look into a map of Europe?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelgebirge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franconian_Jura The range between Nuremberg and Ingolstadt. Considered as a mountain range in Germany. So, where am I wrong exactly? The new line ("Neubaustrecke") cuts through exactly that range, the relatively flat part south of Ingolstadt is an upgrated line ("Ausbaustrecke"). Same is true for Stuttgart-Frankfurt and Nuremberg-Berlin.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 11:36 PM   #216
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,102
Likes (Received): 3706

So, what's this thread about?
LtBk está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 11:44 PM   #217
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

Feeding trolls.

Actually the posts #47 and 52 are topic-related among some others. For SSC, that's not too bad...
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 11:46 PM   #218
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Erm... did you ever look into a map of Europe?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelgebirge
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franconian_Jura The range between Nuremberg and Ingolstadt. Considered as a mountain range in Germany. So, where am I wrong exactly? The new line ("Neubaustrecke") cuts through exactly that range, the relatively flat part south of Ingolstadt is an upgrated line ("Ausbaustrecke"). Same is true for Stuttgart-Frankfurt and Nuremberg-Berlin.
I have in fact, I am very often in that part of the world and I travel on that HSR route very often.

First of all, it is time to teach you some more English:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mountainous
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hill

Then, it is time to teach you some real-life geography.

Munich itself is about 519 m above sea level. Ingolstadt and Nürnberg are actually in relatively lower sea levels. This HSR route rather slides down from Munich to Nürnberg without passing through great mountain peaks.

It is very obvious someone automatically equates hills to the Scottish Highlands, the Swiss Alps and the Bavarian Alps.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 22nd, 2010 at 03:13 PM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 11:51 PM   #219
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Feeding trolls.

Actually the posts #47 and 52 are topic-related among some others. For SSC, that's not too bad...
Post nos. 45 and 49 respond to a particular troll who spreads false information by labeling opinions as facts.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 21st, 2010, 11:52 PM   #220
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,102
Likes (Received): 3706

I never used German railroads before, but you guys have it good to compared to US or many countries. Just saying.
LtBk está en línea ahora   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
ice

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:48 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium