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Old November 22nd, 2010, 12:22 AM   #221
thun
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You're probably right. However, the question is what you compare it to. And frankly, the US railroads are hardly comparable to the European ones (in terms of importance for a nation's transport system). Germany's railroads are quite good even compared to most European ones, but could perform better in a lot of areas. HSR is one of it, though I personally don't think the most important.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
I have in fact, I am very often in that part of the world and I travel on that stretch of HSR very often.
That's really surprising, given the amount of bullshit you posted here.

[quote]First of all, it is time to teach you some more English:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mountainous
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hill{/quote]
That isn't exact enough to convince me. Where (at what elevation) is the difference between a hill and a mountain?

Quote:
Then, it is time to teach you some real-life geography.

Munich itself is about 519 m above sea level. Ingolstadt and Nürnberg are actually in relatively lower sea levels. This HSR route rather slides down from Munich to Nürnberg without passing through great mountain peaks.
Just like the waters of the Isar flew directly into the Pegnitz.

Quote:
It is very obvious someone automatically equates hills to the Scottish Highlands, the Swiss Alps and the Bavarian Alps.
Still, that doesn't prove geographic science wrong.
You do know that terms can be used different in different languages and can in fact have very different meanings, don't you?

In German, Mittelgebirge are regarded as mountains (hence the name) by everyone, common people and scientists. There's no argument against it, you don't have to bother to look for one. And in terms of geography, elevation can't be equalled to "mountain" or "hill", it's rather the shape of a landscape and the vertical drop. How can, if we stick to your categories, Ben Nevis be a mountain if the higher Feldberg according to you is a hill? Is the Altiplano due to its elevation (3,600 m) automatically a mountain area or isn't it indeed a plateau?
The German Wikipedia unsurprisingly agrees with that:"Ein Mittelgebirge ist ein Gebirge, das im Gegensatz zum Hochgebirge eine bestimmte Höhe nicht überschreitet, jedoch, in Abgrenzung zum Hügelland, auch eine gewisse Reliefenergie (Höhendifferenz zwischen höchster Erhebung und Gebirgsfuß) haben muss, um sich vom Umland abzuheben." (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelgebirge): The important phenomena are a vertical drop higher than on a hill (different from region to region) to define a region as a mountain range. The English language is rather limited here (because in the UK, there's no need to differentiate several categories of mountain ranges). It has to use the rather unelegant circumscriptions of "high mountain range" (Hochgebirge) and "low mountain range" (Mittelgebirge).
And yes, the Fränkische Alb is a Mittelgebirge: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A4nkische_Alb
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Last edited by thun; November 22nd, 2010 at 12:28 AM.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 12:43 AM   #222
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
That's really surprising, given the amount of bullshit you posted here.

First of all, it is time to teach you some more English:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mountainous
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hill{/quote]
That isn't exact enough to convince me. Where (at what elevation) is the difference between a hill and a mountain?


Just like the waters of the Isar flew directly into the Pegnitz.


Still, that doesn't prove geographic science wrong.
You do know that terms can be used different in different languages and can in fact have very different meanings, don't you?

In German, Mittelgebirge are regarded as mountains (hence the name) by everyone, common people and scientists. There's no argument against it, you don't have to bother to look for one. And in terms of geography, elevation can't be equalled to "mountain" or "hill", it's rather the shape of a landscape and the vertical drop. How can, if we stick to your categories, Ben Nevis be a mountain if the higher Feldberg according to you is a hill? Is the Altiplano due to its elevation (3,600 m) automatically a mountain area or isn't it indeed a plateau?
The German Wikipedia unsurprisingly agrees with that:"Ein Mittelgebirge ist ein Gebirge, das im Gegensatz zum Hochgebirge eine bestimmte Höhe nicht überschreitet, jedoch, in Abgrenzung zum Hügelland, auch eine gewisse Reliefenergie (Höhendifferenz zwischen höchster Erhebung und Gebirgsfuß) haben muss, um sich vom Umland abzuheben." (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelgebirge): The important phenomena are a vertical drop higher than on a hill (different from region to region) to define a region as a mountain range. The English language is rather limited here (because in the UK, there's no need to differentiate several categories of mountain ranges). It has to use the rather unelegant circumscriptions of "high mountain range" (Hochgebirge) and "low mountain range" (Mittelgebirge).
And yes, the Fränkische Alb is a Mittelgebirge: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fr%C3%A4nkische_Alb
Here is some hardcore geography science for you:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mountain

But then I did not come up with the best bullshit ever after all:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
In terms of the rail network, Germany isn't too different from Switzerland. Only a bit larger. The difference between Germany and France, the UK and Spain where all the main lines are centred to the capital certainly is higher.
...
"Only a bit larger. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Germany
"As of 2005[update], Germany had a railway network of 41,315 km. 19,857 km are electrified. The total track length was 76,473 km. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_tr...in_Switzerland
"Network size: 5,063 km"

It is hilarious to get another piece of bullshit:

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
Just like the waters of the Isar flew directly into the Pegnitz.
...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isar
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegnitz_%28river%29

Here is another trick from someone who bullshits a lot; he just claims certain aspects of the language he is not excellent at "unelegant." The compound noun "Hochgebirge" is more elegant than high mountain range simply because the adjective and noun are joined together. What a joke. Whatever, let´s turn high mountain range into highmountainrange.

Indeed, bullshit is everywhere.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 22nd, 2010 at 01:39 AM.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 11:23 AM   #223
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
One of the by-products of the supposedly all-perfect "Swiss Concept," which some claim that everyone else is supposedly to be so jealous about.
The only one who has been using "perfect" and "Swiss" in the same sentence is you. So please stop this senseless polluting of the discussion with hyperbole.
Start behaving like an adult, or leave.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 11:33 AM   #224
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[QUOTE=derUlukai;67530163]fact is, the fastest trains hannover-würzburg still need slightly more then 2hours for a distance of 327km.. if the trains would not be forced to run with about 100kph through some smalltown trainstations (so that most trains even stop there, because the difference from such a slowdown to an additional stop isn`t that much..), trains could run the whole route in less then 75minutes..
[quote]

The Hannover - Würzburg line was a compromise. Don't forget that after WW II (Western) Germany had to completely reorganize it's network from one that mainly ran east-west to one that goes north south. The line also serves goods, and serves intermediate places too. It's a compromise that seems to work.
Had Germany never been split, the line would not have been built.

Quote:
so yes, the german "highspeed"-rail-approve sucks.. no wonder that most people only take the train if they have no other choices, and you are even faster with your own car..
Most people don't take the train in France also, so that's not really an argument.
I would say that the German approach serves the German geography better. Sure, stopping in Kassel slows down a Münich - Hamburg traveller, but it speeds up a Kassel - Hamburg passenger...
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 12:16 PM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The only one who has been using "perfect" and "Swiss" in the same sentence is you. So please stop this senseless polluting of the discussion with hyperbole.
Start behaving like an adult, or leave.
Seconded.

The best fail aab7772003 has done is repeatedly trying to show that Thun is contradicting himself when he says Italy can have all the major centres all on one line and then saying Italy is polycentric. May I point out for the thread that this is not a contradicton. The mere fact of there being 5 major centres makes it poly-, if there were only one major centre it would be mono-. There is nothing in the term polycentric that says the multiple centres cannot all be in one line or corridor.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 02:02 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The only one who has been using "perfect" and "Swiss" in the same sentence is you.
You may not have said it openly. But from what we can read between your lines is exactly this.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 02:37 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The Hannover - Würzburg line was a compromise. Don't forget that after WW II (Western) Germany had to completely reorganize it's network from one that mainly ran east-west to one that goes north south. The line also serves goods, and serves intermediate places too. It's a compromise that seems to work.
The number of flights between Hannover and Stuttgart indicate the opposite. This is the kind of traffic the Hannover-Würzburg line was meant to carry. As you rightly said it's a compromise. But the design of high speed lines don't allow compromises. Either you achieve competitive travel times between big cities or you leave it altogether.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 03:03 PM   #228
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The only one who has been using "perfect" and "Swiss" in the same sentence is you. So please stop this senseless polluting of the discussion with hyperbole.
Start behaving like an adult, or leave.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
In terms of the rail network, Germany isn't too different from Switzerland. Only a bit larger. The difference between Germany and France, the UK and Spain where all the main lines are centred to the capital certainly is higher.
...
"Only a bit larger. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Germany
"As of 2005[update], Germany had a railway network of 41,315 km. 19,857 km are electrified. The total track length was 76,473 km. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_tr...in_Switzerland
"Network size: 5,063 km"

You´d better send another invitation then. Besides, no one stops you from starting an "Ode to the Flawless Swiss System" thread.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 22nd, 2010 at 03:12 PM.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 03:07 PM   #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Seconded.

The best fail aab7772003 has done is repeatedly trying to show that Thun is contradicting himself when he says Italy can have all the major centres all on one line and then saying Italy is polycentric. May I point out for the thread that this is not a contradicton. The mere fact of there being 5 major centres makes it poly-, if there were only one major centre it would be mono-. There is nothing in the term polycentric that says the multiple centres cannot all be in one line or corridor.
I would like to "point out for the thread" that multiple HSR lines branch out from different major centers in a polycentric HSR system.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 22nd, 2010 at 03:28 PM.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 05:02 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
I would like to "point out for the thread" that multiple HSR lines branch out from different major centers in a polycentric HSR system.
Yes but as he said polycentric network and not polycentric HSR network he would be correct now wouldn't he? Italy has a polycentric network, centred on Rome, Naples and Milan, with secondary centres of Bologna and Venice.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 06:26 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Yes but as he said polycentric network and not polycentric HSR network he would be correct now wouldn't he? Italy has a polycentric network, centred on Rome, Naples and Milan, with secondary centres of Bologna and Venice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
Wrong. In countries like Spain, Italy, and Japan, and even to some point France, you can build one or two lines and connect basically all the very important cities of a country. You can't do that in Germany. So if you want to improve service quality for all those cities, you have to find another feasible solution.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
And for the last time, both the Swiss and the German network are polycentric (other examples are the Austrian, the Italian, the Portuguese and the Dutch network). Believe it or not. And learn to get irony for gods' sake.
...
The lastest interpretation of the opinions would then suggest that the railroad network of Japan is actually polycentric as well.

http://www.japanrailpass.net/images/map_en.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
...
Infrastructure wise, the non-TGV network is NOT Paris-centric at all.
...
Someone has to modify his definitions constantly in order to make his ill-defined points stick.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 22nd, 2010 at 06:52 PM.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 08:32 PM   #232
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Indeed, one has to admire your logic skills.
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 10:01 PM   #233
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Can someone please remove the posts that have nothing to do with the German High Speed Rail.
I'm really not interested in the exact definition of mono- or polycentric rail systems, mounatins, hills, larger,...

Please I want to read some interesting facts about German HS rail, but most posts are more about flaming someone.

Now please stop those silly posts and be nice to eachother
(I'm sounding like a schoolteacher )
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Old November 22nd, 2010, 10:05 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Indeed, one has to admire your logic skills.
Someone with non-existent logic skills is so desperate for admirations.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 22nd, 2010 at 10:26 PM.
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 02:20 AM   #235
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
You're probably right. However, the question is what you compare it to. And frankly, the US railroads are hardly comparable to the European ones (in terms of importance for a nation's transport system). Germany's railroads are quite good even compared to most European ones, but could perform better in a lot of areas. HSR is one of it, though I personally don't think the most important.
Well USA has more freight transport by rail ( I think that is more than 60 % )than any European country does and could dream, despite our best railroad system and it´s a pitty . They don´t have HSR systems but, the distances there are higher than in Europe, most of them are plane routes except NEC corridor, and others around the USA but not linked. I think they should expend more money on good conmuters and regional systems than getting into the HSR race, which is incredible expensive.
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 02:59 PM   #236
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You may not have said it openly. But from what we can read between your lines is exactly this.
Then I'll just take note off the fact that you don't read very well.
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 03:05 PM   #237
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Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
The number of flights between Hannover and Stuttgart indicate the opposite. This is the kind of traffic the Hannover-Würzburg line was meant to carry. As you rightly said it's a compromise. But the design of high speed lines don't allow compromises. Either you achieve competitive travel times between big cities or you leave it altogether.
Well, DB is making money on the route, so why should they "leave it altogether". The point of a business undertaking is normally to sell a product at a price higher than the cost of producing it. Being the largest provider of a service is nice, but not achieving the dominant position in the market is in itself not a reason not to take part in it. Being the biggest is nice, but should not be achieved at any cost.
However, don't forget that an ICE-1 set is worth three flights, and don't forget that the train servers more place than just their endpoints. If you are going from Ingolstadt to Göttingen I doubt there'd be any quicker way to go than by train.

But then, anno 2010 this line would not have been built. It dates from a time when Germany was a lot smaller and shaped differently.
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 03:27 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aleantik View Post
Well USA has more freight transport by rail ( I think that is more than 60 % )than any European country does and could dream, despite our best railroad system and it´s a pitty .
The high share rail has in US freight is mostly due to geography. Most countries in Europe have a coast, and few population centres are far away from a major port. As a consequence within the EU about half the freight moves by Ship. The European equivalent of the several mile long container doublestack train is the river barge or the coastal freighter.
There is one corridor that does get quite a bit of freight, and that is the corridor from the North Sea Ports (Antwerpen, Rotterdam, Hamburg being the major ones) to Northern Italy. Rail actually has quite a good share there, even though even here half of the freight that leaves Rotterdam for it's hinterland does so by barge.

The area from the Low countries, via the Rhine and the Alps has been nicknamed the "Blue Banana" by one economist. Provining high speed rail in that area is quite a challinge because nowhere in Europe are so many users competing for the available scarce land as there.
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 09:24 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Palatinus View Post

...

Why don't they build a direct connection between Berlin and Munich?

...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhalt_Railway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt%...-speed_railway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurembe...-speed_railway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurembe...-speed_railway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin%...o_railway_axis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TE...in-Palermo.gif
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Old November 23rd, 2010, 11:10 PM   #240
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Then I'll just take note off the fact that you don't read very well.
Or you are not aware which impression your posts leave.
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