daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old November 24th, 2010, 01:59 AM   #241
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,885
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Well, DB is making money on the route, so why should they "leave it altogether".
The DB takes benefit from a piece of infrastructure it doesn't really pay for. Making money under these circumstances is not impressing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
However, don't forget that an ICE-1 set is worth three flights, and don't forget that the train servers more place than just their endpoints. If you are going from Ingolstadt to Göttingen I doubt there'd be any quicker way to go than by train.
High speed lines haven't been built for Ingolstadt or Göttingen though. Towns like these, however, are the ones that benefit of it. And this is what is wrong with German high speed. I don't mind if they benefit. On the contrary. There can't be enough benefits to justify the enormous construction costs. I just mind that travel between the big conurbations shifts progressively in the air and not there where it was intended to be. This high speed line doesn't fully achieve what it was meant for and what it could do.

You don't have to run a a full 400 m train for every service. There are shorter trainsets for less demanded services.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old November 24th, 2010, 09:30 AM   #242
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
High speed lines haven't been built for Ingolstadt or Göttingen though. Towns like these, however, are the ones that benefit of it. And this is what is wrong with German high speed. I don't mind if they benefit. On the contrary. There can't be enough benefits to justify the enormous construction costs. I just mind that travel between the big conurbations shifts progressively in the air and not there where it was intended to be. This high speed line doesn't fully achieve what it was meant for and what it could do.
That line was however, as I've already pointed out, build for a different country than the one it ended up in...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2010, 09:34 AM   #243
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
Or you are not aware which impression your posts leave.
Well, I do have a problem with arguing style of aab7772003. Always looking for the most extreme interpretation of a statement doesn't really help a discussion.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2010, 05:30 PM   #244
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Well, I do have a problem with arguing style of aab7772003. Always looking for the most extreme interpretation of a statement doesn't really help a discussion.
But then I am not the "extreme" one who resorts to "extreme" and "dynamic" fact-twisting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
In terms of the rail network, Germany isn't too different from Switzerland. Only a bit larger. The difference between Germany and France, the UK and Spain where all the main lines are centred to the capital certainly is higher.
...
"Only a bit larger. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_transport_in_Germany
"As of 2005[update], Germany had a railway network of 41,315 km. 19,857 km are electrified. The total track length was 76,473 km. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_tr...in_Switzerland
"Network size: 5,063 km"

Last edited by aab7772003; November 24th, 2010 at 05:35 PM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2010, 06:00 PM   #245
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
But then I am not the "extreme" one who resorts to "extreme" and "dynamic" fact-twisting.
There's an old legal aphorism that goes, "If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have neither on your side, pound the table."

If this was a court you'd be pounding the table.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2010, 07:47 PM   #246
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
There's an old legal aphorism that goes, "If you have the facts on your side, pound the facts. If you have the law on your side, pound the law. If you have neither on your side, pound the table."

If this was a court you'd be pounding the table.
Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Then I'll just take note off the fact that you don't read very well.
If this was a court, you would tell the judge that he is wrong though you have no say in the verdict yourself. You and thun would fit right in with those abrasive and fast-talking class-action lawsuits lawyers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
Wrong. In countries like Spain, Italy, and Japan, and even to some point France, you can build one or two lines and connect basically all the very important cities of a country. You can't do that in Germany. So if you want to improve service quality for all those cities, you have to find another feasible solution.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
And for the last time, both the Swiss and the German network are polycentric (other examples are the Austrian, the Italian, the Portuguese and the Dutch network). Believe it or not. And learn to get irony for gods' sake.
...
The lastest interpretation of the opinions would then suggest that the railroad network of Japan is actually polycentric as well.

http://www.japanrailpass.net/images/map_en.pdf
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 24th, 2010, 08:49 PM   #247
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

If you don't look at the fat Shinkansen lines only, it looks to me rather polycentric indeed on a first glimpse. Cities like Osaka or Kyoto certainly are major hubs of the system.
Don't you get it that having a polycentric network and a monocentric HSR network (or the other way round) is NOT a contradiction?!? You''re comitting a huge fallacy here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
The DB takes benefit from a piece of infrastructure it doesn't really pay for. Making money under these circumstances is not impressing.
Neither has to pay SNCF for it or the Polish lorry owner you're queuing behind on the motorway...

Quote:
High speed lines haven't been built for Ingolstadt or Göttingen though.
I have to disagree. HSLs have to be build for the benefit of the whole network to realize the profit-making potential (on both the microeconomic and the macroeconomic level). And that means that it shouldn't only connect the largest few cities. Germany has a rather evenly spread population, so of course the network itself has to follow that circumstance. The most benefit of HSR is gained by improving services (travel times, connections, etc.) in the whole network (regional and inter city services included). I believe that in a country which has an area-wide rail coverage regarding HSR as an independent system in competition first and foremost to air travellers is a point of view that can't nearly use (also in terms of profit-making) the potential of HSR. On the other hand by integrating the HSR network into the existing network with more hubs, you can improve utility of the whole network (and therefore the willingness to) for much more people - also resulting in a larger customer base.
There are a lot of people travelling between Kassel and Ingolstadt (unlike like e. g. between Lleida and Guadalajara) on the HSR line as that's the fastest way to go from their actual start to their destination (faster than going e. g. from Schrobenhausen to Munich to catch the ICE, leaving at Hannover only to get back to the Harz). If they wouldn't have good connections, they would very soon switch to the car.
Probably a system with both Sprinter-ICE bypassing the smaller cities and normal ICEs stopping there (both at decent intervalls) would be best. But applied to the whole country that's very unrealistic to happen in the forseeable future.

Quote:
There can't be enough benefits to justify the enormous construction costs.
That's exactly why letting ICEs stop at smaller stations (you always have to keep in mind that these stops don't serve only the city itself but creates more hubs to integrate the conventional services into the high-class ICE system!) is justifiyable.

Quote:
I just mind that travel between the big conurbations shifts progressively in the air (...)
I doubt that. Do you have any data available?
Of course, you're right: That's not what should happen in a modern and ecological aware country.

Quote:
This high speed line doesn't fully achieve what it was meant for and what it could do.
As always with big investments, the outcome is the result of political decisions and narrow funds. That is not only true for HSR.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________

Last edited by thun; November 24th, 2010 at 08:59 PM.
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 25th, 2010, 04:44 AM   #248
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
If you don't look at the fat Shinkansen lines only, it looks to me rather polycentric indeed on a first glimpse. Cities like Osaka or Kyoto certainly are major hubs of the system.
Don't you get it that having a polycentric network and a monocentric HSR network (or the other way round) is NOT a contradiction?!? You''re comitting a huge fallacy here.
...
I get that whatever you think you say is absolutely fact-based, accurate and logical; you find whatever you feel like for a particular moment to make comments that contradict the later ones you make.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
Wrong. In countries like Spain, Italy, and Japan, and even to some point France, you can build one or two lines and connect basically all the very important cities of a country. You can't do that in Germany. So if you want to improve service quality for all those cities, you have to find another feasible solution.
...
In fact, it is possible to build "one or two lines and connect basically all the very important cities of" Germany. The German rail network is obviously polycentric, but it is possible to build only a couple of HSR routes to serve Germany.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
...
One "single corridor" without Berlin for Hamburg - Hannover - Düsseldorf - Cologne - Frankfurt - Mannheim - Stuttgart - Ulm - Augsburg - Munich just starts looking like the most heavily traveled stretch of the Japanese Shinkansen network, Voila!
...
The really "very important" cities in Germany are just Hamburg, Frankfurt, Stuttgart, Berlin, Düsseldorf and Cologne. Hannover, Ulm and August are not really "very important" cities by most definitions, but they just happen to be on the hypothetical "German Shinkansen" route. It is one thing to know that Germany is a federal country; it is another thing to pretend that so many cities in Germany are "very important" because of the federal political structure. It is human nature to think the list of "very important" cities in your own country simply keeps growing and growing just because you are from that country; so many people from so many British cities in different threads all over the internet come up with the the idea of "London and Britain" to make their cities one of the many "very important" British cities. I am sure that Japanese themselves find Sapporo, Hiroshima, Nagaski, etc. "very important" too.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 25th, 2010 at 08:54 AM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 25th, 2010, 10:18 AM   #249
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
I get that whatever you think you say is absolutely fact-based, accurate and logical; you find whatever you feel like for a particular moment to make comments that contradict the later ones you make.
Thun's point is logical. The thing about logic is that opinion is irrelevant, and so is your interpretation of logic.

You have stated something is a contradiction, when it isn't. This is probably due to you misunderstanding the premises, either that or your a dimwit.
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 25th, 2010, 11:02 AM   #250
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
Hannover, Ulm and August are not really "very important" cities by most definitions,
I think most people would disagree with you about Hannover. Hannover is one of the most important exchibition and congress cities in Europe. Ever heard of CEBIT?
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 25th, 2010, 05:01 PM   #251
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I think most people would disagree with you about Hannover. Hannover is one of the most important exchibition and congress cities in Europe. Ever heard of CEBIT?
"Most people" you imagine to be on your side would "disagree" with me. Even the SINGLE global headliner CEBIT show has been declining in importance in the recent years. Even Nürnberg has one single global headliner show called the Nürnberg Toy Fair.

CEBIT is the spin-off of the Hannover Fair, which was the fair of all fairs for Germany for maximum a couple of decades after WWII.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanover_Fair

The Hannover Fair gradually and finally lost its original relevance as Germany rebuilt itself from the ashes of WWII, with textile/fashion, heavy metal, and many other fairs re-established and greatly expanded themselves in Düsseldorf, Cologne, Frankfurt and Munich. Now even Berlin has jumped into the pool to aggressively compete in the global trade fair/MICE businesses.

Ever personally experienced the truly global presence of Köln/München/Frankfurt with their offices spanning all over the globe?

One of the reasons EXPO 2000 was held in Hannover was to revitalize the trade fair business in Hannover.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 25th, 2010 at 08:27 PM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 25th, 2010, 05:09 PM   #252
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by makita09 View Post
Thun's point is logical. The thing about logic is that opinion is irrelevant, and so is your interpretation of logic.

You have stated something is a contradiction, when it isn't. This is probably due to you misunderstanding the premises, either that or your a dimwit.
You think he has a point. You think every single opinion of his is logic.

Something for your reference from a friend of yours.
Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 25th, 2010, 07:35 PM   #253
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

Would you mind if I would correct your English?

For your knowledge: The Hannover Messe is still the most important industrial fair in the world. The fairground of Hanover is the largest in the world. The Deutsche Messe AG (its owner) the largest fair company in the most important country for fairs in the world.

And regarding your suggested corridor: Unfortunately you don't connect other mayor industrial and commercial agglomerations of Germany such as Berlin, Leipzig and Nuremberg. Besides that, the most logical route from Munich to Hamburg is not via Cologne. All that leads to the conclusion that - if you want to provide a decent HSR coverage for all those - you need a more complex network like e. g. Italy. And that includes a number of hubs, too.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 25th, 2010, 08:19 PM   #254
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
Would you mind if I would correct your English?
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
... connect other mayor industrial...
This is pathetic because only you still need help with your English.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
For your knowledge: The Hannover Messe is still the most important industrial fair in the world. The fairground of Hanover is the largest in the world. The Deutsche Messe AG (its owner) the largest fair company in the most important country for fairs in the world.
...
Being "the largest fair company in the most important country for fairs in the world" simply for having the most exhibition floor space in one location? By that definition, I know that. Messe Frankfurt/München/Köln stage so many fairs all over EU and Asia Pacific; That means these convention/exhibition organizations actually have more exhibition floor space than you imagine. I have yet seen Messe Hannover doing anything similar. I also know that so many countries around the world are building larger and larger fair grounds at really rapid speed. I was saying that the Hannover Messe has lost its original relevance, by the way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
...
And regarding your suggested corridor: Unfortunately you don't connect other mayor industrial and commercial agglomerations of Germany such as Berlin, Leipzig and Nuremberg. Besides that, the most logical route from Munich to Hamburg is not via Cologne. All that leads to the conclusion that - if you want to provide a decent HSR coverage for all those - you need a more complex network like e. g. Italy. And that includes a number of hubs, too.
My proposed corridor is something has yet to be realized.

Meanwhile...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palatinus View Post

...

Why don't they build a direct connection between Berlin and Munich?

...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anhalt_Railway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erfurt%...-speed_railway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurembe...-speed_railway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nurembe...-speed_railway

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin%...o_railway_axis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:TE...in-Palermo.gif

There are already Berlin - Hamburg, Berlin - Hannover "quasi HSR" tracks in place.

Also, I mentioned the following previously:

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post

...

Frankfurt - Munich via Nürnberg
Frankfurt - Munich via Stuttgart
Frankfurt - Berlin via Hannover
Berlin - Hamburg
Frankfurt -Hamburg via Hannover
Cologne - Hamburg via Hannover
Frankfurt - Cologne

...
Something "more complex" is almost here in Germany rather than missing. Meanwhile, France and Spain are building something "more complex" for their HSR networks. By the way, do not bother repeating that France is implementing the uniquely Swiss-style system timetables as Germany is also all about system timetables.

Last edited by aab7772003; November 26th, 2010 at 07:01 PM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 26th, 2010, 11:24 AM   #255
makita09
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 2,536
Likes (Received): 92

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
[B]You think every single opinion of his is logic.
!? Me logic his think opinion every single you.
makita09 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 29th, 2010, 09:55 PM   #256
pietje01
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 488
Likes (Received): 8

Now that this thread is effectively killed because most of the posts were more trolling than useful contributions, I'd like to know what the status is and what the plans are regarding HS rail in Germany.

Please no posts calling eachother liar etc. That doesn't interest me.
pietje01 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2010, 12:30 AM   #257
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

Status: Look at the map on page two or so. It's rather current. In the same post I linked a list with all lines, buildt, under construction, planned and proposed. Both can be foundt here: http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schnell...ke#Deutschland

There's a HSL (300 kph) between (Nuremberg-)Ebensfeld and Leipzig (via Erfurt) under construction. So is the HSL Karlsruhe - Basel (250 kph). Stuttgart 21 (has its own thread here) is the reconstruction of Stuttgart main station. The new HSL Wendlingen-Ulm (an independent project, 250 kph) should be opened together with Stuttgart 21 (planned for 2019).
The other two "real" HSL planned are the Frankfurt-Mannheim line closing the most important gap on the Western North-South high speed route and the Hanover-Hamburg/Bremen line (both 300kph).
And there are of course several projects to upgrate existing lines to allow higher speeds (200 or 230 kph) under construction, planned and proposed. Please look at the link for that.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2010, 09:20 PM   #258
pebe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9
Likes (Received): 0

well, according to the last reports from the transport ministery they have a planned budget of 8bln € for railway projects until 2020.
If we're lucky thats enough to finish the HSL line Nürnberg-Erfurt and Karlsruhe-Basel and maybe some upgrading/updating of existing lines.
But I wouldn't expect any new HSL work to begin in the near future.
I'm also still skeptical if we will actually see work starting on the HSL Stuttgart-Ulm.
But thats Germany: car > rail
pebe no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old November 30th, 2010, 11:24 PM   #259
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

Well, Nürnberg-Leipzig and Karlsruhe-Basel are both under construction. I don't know, how that affects the budget, i. e. whether their funds are in the future budgets of the ones of the last years.
Most of these 8bln will go to Stuttgart21 and Wendlingen-Ulm I suppose. But that's the point: It certainly lacks somewhere else, namely the numerous bottlenecks in the existing network.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2010, 01:20 AM   #260
pebe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 9
Likes (Received): 0

afaik(and im no expert here), each years budget has to allocate the necessary funds to finance the work done in that year.

but my point was more to show that the budget for railway projects is way too low. Expensive HS railway constructions doesn't have much chance at the moment.so to answer @pietje01's question: HS railway will remain a patchwork for a long time.
pebe no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
ice

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 09:46 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium