daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 1st, 2010, 07:51 PM   #261
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799

im not particularly bothered by the relatively slow pace of german progress, nor by the relatively lower speeds

but i wish they had the foresight to at least align new lines so that after the first upgrade they would be able to support higher speeds to connect the whole of europe

im fine with a 250 connection between Stuttgart-Munchen, Munchen-Wien, but at least make the alignment, the tunnels and bridges good for 300-360 so it will be cheaper to upgrade when we have EU citizens coming from, say, Istanbul...


i hate the shortsightedness of most EU states (germany, austria in particular) when it comes to HS lines, the 'latins' seem to have a broader vision
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 1st, 2010, 08:34 PM   #262
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

You can't really compare lets say Barcelona-Madrid with Stuttgart-Munich.
The first is one of the most congested air travel routes, so building a very fast HSL means that you can attract quite a lot of the people for the train hence achieving ecological objectives. The latter is a medium distance route where it doesn't make much difference whether the train runs at 250 or 300kph in terms of travel time whereas it certainly makes a huge difference in terms of costs. Another point is that the HSL Wendlingen-Ulm is planned for mixed use (it will be used by light freight trains as well), so increasing the speed up to 300kph means sacrificing slots and hence freight capacity on one of the most important European East-West connections. In fact, 300kph are only reached on solely HSR lines in Germany.
Another issue is of course that Madrid-Barcelona is a 600 or 700km long route in one single country while a 700km route from Stuttgart eastwards crosses at least 3 countries. Its normal that the total number of travellers on such routes are way lower than in the first case. Hence massive investments in a 360kph (or so) HSL are far less justified by demand. The same is true for a comparision with Paris-Marseille.
And to mention a third aspect: Germany's population density is far higher than the one of France (about 200%) or Spain (about 300%) and is more equally spread across the territory. Therefore, building such a line of course can be a lot more complicated as more people are affected. And you'll need more stops to provide attractive services for the same amount of clients. Of course, with more stops, higher speeds make even less sense as you'd loose more time in acceleration and decceleration.

And lets face it, for someone from Istanbul, a high speed train will never be an alternative to travel to Central Europe.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2010, 08:35 PM   #263
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

Quote:
Originally Posted by pebe View Post
but my point was more to show that the budget for railway projects is way too low. Expensive HS railway constructions doesn't have much chance at the moment.so to answer @pietje01's question: HS railway will remain a patchwork for a long time.
Well, there's no point in arguing with you on that.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2010, 08:39 PM   #264
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799

i wasnt complaining about the speed, however in 30-40 years time when europe will be more integrated the alignment should allow for a higher speed

thats all
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2010, 09:03 PM   #265
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 755
Likes (Received): 172

Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
You can't really compare lets say Barcelona-Madrid with Stuttgart-Munich.
No, you cannot. But that is, to some extent, the fault of the German authorities isn't it? I agree with all the arguments about density of population, network considerations, difficult topography in most of the country, etc. etc. etc. that our German friends always throw up as a reason why concepts that are possible in France (and, such thinly populated countries as Japan... and such flat countries as Spain...) cannot possibly be implemented in Germany.

However, I put it to you that these are sometimes just lame excuses for not making an effort. Think about Berlin-Hamburg. Here we have two of the biggest cities in northern Europe, separated by flat, thinly populated land. NOT ONE of the above excuses could apply. But... instead of a 300+ km/h line we got a track renovation - that is already under major repair. So... no you cannot compare. Because making a truly highspeed track between Berlin and Hamburg would have been so much easier than making one between Madrid and Barcelona or, say, Tokyo and Osaka.

Oh, and... one final parting shot: I cannot be the only person on this site who possesses a map of Europe? The distance Paris-Strasbourg is identically the same as the distance Strasbourg-Salzburg. Well, Paris-Strasbourg takes 2h20. The French see this as unacceptably slow. So, it's subject to major new investment to lower the travel time to 1h50.
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2010, 09:16 PM   #266
pietje01
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 488
Likes (Received): 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Oh, and... one final parting shot: I cannot be the only person on this site who possesses a map of Europe? The distance Paris-Strasbourg is identically the same as the distance Strasbourg-Salzburg. Well, Paris-Strasbourg takes 2h20. The French see this as unacceptably slow. So, it's subject to major new investment to lower the travel time to 1h50.
But that has also to do with the fact that the French are only interested in low travel times to/from Paris. if you want to travel between cities that don't happen to have Paris in the middle of them, you have the choice between a slow, irregular train or a detour via Paris. In Germany the investments are more evenly spread.

But I think I'm kicking an open door...
pietje01 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 1st, 2010, 09:27 PM   #267
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799

Quote:
Originally Posted by pietje01 View Post
But that has also to do with the fact that the French are only interested in low travel times to/from Paris. if you want to travel between cities that don't happen to have Paris in the middle of them, you have the choice between a slow, irregular train or a detour via Paris. In Germany the investments are more evenly spread.

But I think I'm kicking an open door...
Berlin-Munchen: 5:52

Bordeaux-Marseille: 5:43

door closed
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 01:54 AM   #268
Motorways
Registered User
 
Motorways's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 331
Likes (Received): 94

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
and such flat countries as Spain...)
.
I don´t really think that Spain could be considered as flat.



and even less when compared to Germany or France. Span´s geography it´s really hard and this has really complicated the country transportation since ever.
Motorways no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 02:00 AM   #269
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
No, you cannot. But that is, to some extent, the fault of the German authorities isn't it? I agree with all the arguments about density of population, network considerations, difficult topography in most of the country, etc. etc. etc. that our German friends always throw up as a reason why concepts that are possible in France (and, such thinly populated countries as Japan... and such flat countries as Spain...) cannot possibly be implemented in Germany.

However, I put it to you that these are sometimes just lame excuses for not making an effort. Think about Berlin-Hamburg. Here we have two of the biggest cities in northern Europe, separated by flat, thinly populated land. NOT ONE of the above excuses could apply. But... instead of a 300+ km/h line we got a track renovation - that is already under major repair. So... no you cannot compare. Because making a truly highspeed track between Berlin and Hamburg would have been so much easier than making one between Madrid and Barcelona or, say, Tokyo and Osaka.

Oh, and... one final parting shot: I cannot be the only person on this site who possesses a map of Europe? The distance Paris-Strasbourg is identically the same as the distance Strasbourg-Salzburg. Well, Paris-Strasbourg takes 2h20. The French see this as unacceptably slow. So, it's subject to major new investment to lower the travel time to 1h50.
+1

Stuttgart is a stop between Munich and Paris; the importance of this route will keep growing in the years to come. Within a decade, the travel time between Munich and Berlin will come down to around 3 hours.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 04:15 AM   #270
AdamChobits
♥사랑해요♥
 
AdamChobits's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 660
Likes (Received): 15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Motorways View Post
I don´t really think that Spain could be considered as flat.



and even less when compared to Germany or France. Span´s geography it´s really hard and this has really complicated the country transportation since ever.
If you read all his post you'll notice he was being sarcastic, like mocking at the "excuses" given by the germans about certain concepts that are actually working in other countries with far more mountains (Spain) or density (Japan).

Notice he also said Japan had a thinly population while Japan has 192 million people in a land smaller than Spain or France.
AdamChobits no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 05:29 AM   #271
dumbfword
Habitual Line Stepper
 
dumbfword's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Posts: 293
Likes (Received): 563

Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamChobits View Post
If you read all his post you'll notice he was being sarcastic, like mocking at the "excuses" given by the germans about certain concepts that are actually working in other countries with far more mountains (Spain) or density (Japan).

Notice he also said Japan had a thinly population while Japan has 192 million people in a land smaller than Spain or France.
127 million
__________________
"I am the color red in a world full of black and white"
dumbfword no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 06:20 AM   #272
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 755
Likes (Received): 172

Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
Berlin-Munchen: 5:52

Bordeaux-Marseille: 5:43

door closed
Not quite. It is true that the French tend to think that their capital should, automatically and necessarily, enjoy higher priority than any other part of the country ("nos provinces", as they're called....) - an idea that makes Germans and Italians scoff. However, when it comes to railway planning this actually makes sense. Almost two thirds of all middle and long distance travels within France have Paris as either their starting point or their end point. This reflects the fact that, whereas only one fifth of the population lives in Paris, almost half of the "commercial economy" (by which I mean, companies that actually do business - as opposed to the economic activities by farmers, grocers, accountants, hotels... across the country) is located here. The rest of the commercial economy depends largely on business with, and frequent travels to, Paris.

Hence, the fact that the French have not invested in point-to-point highspeed lines between southern provincial towns is irrelevant to my argument. They'd be mad to do so.
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 06:38 AM   #273
AdamChobits
♥사랑해요♥
 
AdamChobits's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 660
Likes (Received): 15

Quote:
Originally Posted by dumbfword View Post
127 million
Ooops, you're right, sorry
AdamChobits no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 11:25 AM   #274
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Almost two thirds of all middle and long distance travels within France have Paris as either their starting point or their end point. This reflects the fact that, whereas only one fifth of the population lives in Paris, almost half of the "commercial economy" (by which I mean, companies that actually do business - as opposed to the economic activities by farmers, grocers, accountants, hotels... across the country) is located here. The rest of the commercial economy depends largely on business with, and frequent travels to, Paris.
That is because France is a centralized country. Germany is a federal country. The biggest air route is, if I'm not mistaken, München to Hamburg. In France Paris is where everything happens. In Germany "where everything happens" depends what sector of the economy you are active in.

Don't overlook another important thing: When Germany started building high speed lines the country was a lot smaller than it is now, and the capital was somewhere else...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 11:31 AM   #275
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
Berlin-Munchen: 5:52

Bordeaux-Marseille: 5:43
There are only five direct daytime trains from Bordeaux to Marseille, and only two do it in 5 1/2 hours. DB does a far better job than SNCF.

Ofcourse Berlin and München have only been in the same country for about 20 years now...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 11:32 AM   #276
pietje01
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 488
Likes (Received): 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
Not quite. It is true that the French tend to think that their capital should, automatically and necessarily, enjoy higher priority than any other part of the country ("nos provinces", as they're called....) - an idea that makes Germans and Italians scoff. However, when it comes to railway planning this actually makes sense. Almost two thirds of all middle and long distance travels within France have Paris as either their starting point or their end point. This reflects the fact that, whereas only one fifth of the population lives in Paris, almost half of the "commercial economy" (by which I mean, companies that actually do business - as opposed to the economic activities by farmers, grocers, accountants, hotels... across the country) is located here. The rest of the commercial economy depends largely on business with, and frequent travels to, Paris.

Hence, the fact that the French have not invested in point-to-point highspeed lines between southern provincial towns is irrelevant to my argument. They'd be mad to do so.
But that same argument justifies the German approach since there the "commercial economy" is more evenly spread around the country.
I agree that it would be better if there were more dedicated HS lines, but they probably did their calculations and concluded that it wasn't the right time (yet)
pietje01 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 11:42 AM   #277
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
However, I put it to you that these are sometimes just lame excuses for not making an effort. Think about Berlin-Hamburg. Here we have two of the biggest cities in northern Europe, separated by flat, thinly populated land. NOT ONE of the above excuses could apply. But... instead of a 300+ km/h line we got a track renovation - that is already under major repair.
So... no you cannot compare. Because making a truly highspeed track between Berlin and Hamburg would have been so much easier than making one between Madrid and Barcelona or, say, Tokyo and Osaka.
Exactly because the area is flat the existing line could be reused. The line speed is 230kph, which is quite high. The fastest trains do the trip in 1h36 minutes. I don't think that building a completely new 300kph line would have made a big difference.

There is one important aspect in which the city pair of Berlin - Hamburg differs from Tokyo - Osaka and Madrid - Barcelone.

Berlin and Hamburg have only been in the same county since 1990. After the reunification of Germany the priority was rebuilding all the connections that 45 years of separation had severed. In the context of this project upgrading the existing line was a good investment. Now that the line allows for 90 minute travel times between Berlin and Hamburg one can really ask if a new line allowing 300kph would really add enough extra value to justify the cost.



Quote:
Oh, and... one final parting shot: I cannot be the only person on this site who possesses a map of Europe? The distance Paris-Strasbourg is identically the same as the distance Strasbourg-Salzburg. Well, Paris-Strasbourg takes 2h20. The French see this as unacceptably slow. So, it's subject to major new investment to lower the travel time to 1h50.
Strassbourg and Salzburg are not in the same country. Something you should know, having a map of Europe. There are even two borders between them. And borders still matter. More to the French than to other countries though. Have a look at the number of international trains leaving Salzburg and compare that with Strassbourg...

Last edited by K_; December 2nd, 2010 at 11:49 AM.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 12:36 PM   #278
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
There are only five direct daytime trains from Bordeaux to Marseille, and only two do it in 5 1/2 hours.
your point being? even if it was a single train it would only prove that they can do it at that kind of speed and they only need so much capacity, if they needed more theyd run more trains


Quote:
DB does a far better job than SNCF.
yea yea yea


Quote:
Ofcourse Berlin and München have only been in the same country for about 20 years now...
aha,

so why isnt there a direct link from Stuttgart to Koln, from Stuttgart to Munchen or from Koln to Hamburg or from Munchen to Hamburg?

let alone the blatantly obvious: Hamburg-Berlin
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 12:53 PM   #279
gramercy
BANNED
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 4,823
Likes (Received): 799

not to mention rhin-rhone lgv which will not serve paris but serve more switzerland/germany than france
gramercy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 2nd, 2010, 01:29 PM   #280
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
so why isnt there a direct link from Stuttgart to Koln, from Stuttgart to Munchen or from Koln to Hamburg or from Munchen to Hamburg?
What? Are you seriously claiming that there are no trains from Köln to München?
Oh, je probably intend to imply that there is no contiguous high speed line from Köln to München. But that is a different discussion. Most TGVs run on conventional lines too. There is no contiguous line from Bordeaux to Paris either...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
ice

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:01 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium