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Old December 2nd, 2010, 01:30 PM   #281
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Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
not to mention rhin-rhone lgv which will not serve paris but serve more switzerland/germany than france
And which also serves to illustrate the RFF/SNCF have started to think a little bit more like DB and SBB...
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 03:20 PM   #282
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Oh, je probably intend to imply that there is no contiguous high speed line from Köln to München. But that is a different discussion.
no, thats exactly the discussion we are having

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Most TGVs run on conventional lines too. There is no contiguous line from Bordeaux to Paris either...
nice, you picked one thats already been tendered an soon under construction

meanwhile Paris, Lyon, Valence, Avignon, Marseille, Nimes, Le Mans, Tours, Lille, Bruxelles, Calais, London, Reims, Metz/Nancy and soon Strasbourg are all connected with a contiguous network

(+Dijon, Liege, Antwerp, Rotterdam and Amsterdam only lack short sections)
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 05:43 PM   #283
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no, thats exactly the discussion we are having
+1

Because of reunification and the sorry state of the original stretch of the Berlin - Hamburg line, Germany could have built a brand-new Berlin - Hamburg HSR line to make the the ICE trips between Berlin and Hamburg clock in just under an hour. Such line will make Berlin and Hamburg twin cities; economic synergy can be captured and wealth can be even more evenly distributed with the increased passenger traffic as 5 million plus people will have an enormous commuter zone to find employments and do business.
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 09:53 PM   #284
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You totally forget that by building a completely new line, you would still would have needed to basically rebuild the existing one (which was very crappy in the early ninties). So you have the choice between investing a certain amount of money in a upgrated line or about 150% of it into a dedicated 300kph line which brings shorter travel times of some minutes plus investing a lot of money (I think we talk about more than a billion marks) into the existing line. Travel time isn't the only argument, an investment still has to be justified by its effects. And wasting double the funds for some gained minutes (and these only for those travelling exactly between those two cities) hardly seems to be justified. Especially if you don't have to finance massive investments only on that single line but on every main corridor (rail, canal and motorway) between the formerly separated countries. The money certainly was better invested elsewhere in those days.

Another reason why Germany is investing less money than e. g. France or Spain into HSR: Germany still is a country in which a high percentage of economic power comes from manufacturing, therefore rail freight transport is more vital for the German economy than it is for the French - hence you need to invest a lot of money there, too. That also explains why the early German HSLs (especially Hannover-Würzburg) ar mixed used and ply an important role for both passenger and freight transport.

Finally the point is that it is not that easy to compare different rail networks as the preconditions and the objectives differ from country to country.
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 10:36 PM   #285
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Originally Posted by gramercy View Post
meanwhile Paris, Lyon, Valence, Avignon, Marseille, Nimes, Le Mans, Tours, Lille, Bruxelles, Calais, London, Reims, Metz/Nancy and soon Strasbourg are all connected with a contiguous network
Actually they're not, as the LGV Atlantique is not connected to the rest of the network by a high speed line. And the line to Brussel ends in Halle...
Metz, Nancy and Reims are not on any LGV either. They are served by TGVs alright, but these leave the LGV quite a bit before reaching their destinations.

But what is actually the point you are arguing here?
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 10:38 PM   #286
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Another reason why Germany is investing less money than e. g. France or Spain into HSR: Germany still is a country in which a high percentage of economic power comes from manufacturing, therefore rail freight transport is more vital for the German economy than it is for the French - hence you need to invest a lot of money there, too. That also explains why the early German HSLs (especially Hannover-Würzburg) ar mixed used and ply an important role for both passenger and freight transport.
Another big difference between Germany and Spain is that Germany is not bankrupt. The way things are evolving right now Germany might actually end up paying for the Spanish HSLs...
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 10:45 PM   #287
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Actually they're not, as the LGV Atlantique is not connected to the rest of the network by a high speed line. And the line to Brussel ends in Halle...
Metz, Nancy and Reims are not on any LGV either. They are served by TGVs alright, but these leave the LGV quite a bit before reaching their destinations.
grasping at straws huh?

by that logic neither koln nor frankfurt is "connected"
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 10:46 PM   #288
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Another big difference between Germany and Spain is that Germany is not bankrupt. The way things are evolving right now Germany might actually end up paying for the Spanish HSLs...
what about france?

and the financial problems dont stem from the budget deficits they stem from bankers shorting
but that _is_ another discussion
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 10:52 PM   #289
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grasping at straws huh?

by that logic neither koln nor frankfurt is "connected"
+1

It is funny how someone claims that a dedicated Berlin - Hamburg HSR line will only " save some minutes" when actual time savings generated by such HSR line will be as much as 45 minutes in comparision with the travel time of the current ICE services.

Now, these folks now come up with the new spin by saying that different HSR systems should not be compared when they actually compare these systems to death, with claim such as the world should kill themselves for the "flawless Swiss system" because the Swiss apparently put the Germans to shame in this area.

It is all about whatever they want.
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 11:01 PM   #290
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....
as far as freight is concerned, the french are actually putting their money there as well:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/nc/new...-priority.html


for example the new Nimes-Montpelier HSL will be mixed with freight
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 11:11 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
+1

Because of reunification and the sorry state of the original stretch of the Berlin - Hamburg line, Germany could have built a brand-new Berlin - Hamburg HSR line to make the the ICE trips between Berlin and Hamburg clock in just under an hour. Such line will make Berlin and Hamburg twin cities; economic synergy can be captured and wealth can be even more evenly distributed with the increased passenger traffic as 5 million plus people will have an enormous commuter zone to find employments and do business.
That line would never have been planned and build in the time it took to upgrade the existing line. Also that line would have diverted funds from other projects that were also needed. A new line would have cost upwards of 4 billion euros, whereas the speed increase only costed 500 million.
In the end what matters is not train speed but passenger speed. What matters for commuters and businessmen alike is not how fast trains go from Berlin Hbf to Hamburg Altona. What matters is door to door times from somewhere in Berlin to somewhere in Hamburg. The tight integration of local and long distance services in Berlin Südkreuz probably saves more minutes to more people than an upgrade of the line to Hamburg from 230 to 300 kph ever could.
Currently about 10000 people travel from Berlin to Frankfurt Hamburg daily. There are no direct flights anymore between the two cities. So increasing the speed between the two places would maybe grow the market a bit, but would not lead to a higher market share for rail, as everyone who doesn't drive already takes the train.

No building an entire new line between Hamburg and Berlin would have been a waste of money.

Last edited by K_; December 3rd, 2010 at 07:39 AM.
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 11:13 PM   #292
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what about france?

and the financial problems dont stem from the budget deficits they stem from bankers shorting
but that _is_ another discussion
Saying that the problems stem from bankers shorting is saying that fever is the cause of flu.
Unfortunately I indeed cannot repair your failure to understand basic economics in a few messages...
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 11:15 PM   #293
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Saying that the problems stem from bankers shorting is saying that fever is the cause of flu.
Unfortunately I indeed cannot repair your failure to understand basic economics in a few messages...
im an economist, but sure you must be right and krugman etc. are just idiots
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 11:17 PM   #294
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+1

It is funny how someone claims that a dedicated Berlin - Hamburg HSR line will only " save some minutes" when actual time savings generated by such HSR line will be as much as 45 minutes in comparision with the travel time of the current ICE services.
That is not true. A dedicated high speed line was investigated, and would have lead to travel times around 65 minutes. That's about 30 minutes faster than now.
It would have also been very expensive, which would have lead to other projects being starved of money, and less people seing their travel times reduced.
Also the point I'm making is not that the solution chosen by DB for Hamburg - Berlin was the technically best solution, of the fastest solution. The point I and others are making is that it was the best value for money solution. You do not refute that point by pointing out that a hypothetical dedicate line would have been faster. Of course it would have been faster. Originally there was even a plan for a Maglev on the route. It got cancelled because it would never have paid itself back.
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 11:36 PM   #295
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grasping at straws huh?
No. Why should I have to?

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by that logic neither koln nor frankfurt is "connected"
But I'm not employing that kind of logic.

The point I'm making is that it doesn't matter how fast the trains run. Yes, the French are better at making large metal objects move fast at ground level than the Germans are. They're better at building dedicated HSL that almost go where people want to go.
When it comes to actually moving people from A to B the Germany do a better job. I can actually go to www.bahn.de and put in two street adresses, and get a detailed description of how to get from one place to another by public transport. I can do that also in Switzerland, the UK, the Netherlands of Belgium. I can't do that in France. SNCF will even flatly deny that it is possible to travel between some of it's stations when in fact they are all connected.
And what use has cutting 30 minutes of in-train time when the result is 30 minutes extra in-station time? The LGV Est is a nice piece of engineering, but time could also have been saved for the people travelling on the line by choosing a better terminal in Paris (Gare du Nord, for example).

And did I mention that the food on German trains is way better than on French trains. What an irony... :-)
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 11:36 PM   #296
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With all the understanding we can have for Germany's population situation, cold war history, the niceties of its ÖPNV systems and the fact that at least some regional trains are preserved, the fact remains that many main lines are quite pathetic. Are we really supposed to celebrate the fact that Berlin - Hamburg speedy in the 2010s have risen to the level of the 1930s? Much worse, look at the Berlin-Dresden line. 300 kmh was never an issue here, but despite the flat terrain, the line remains to large parts a medium speed line. 200 kmh, i.e. modernization so the line could reach the speeds of the 1930s, has not happened, and still the Bahn, the Bund and Saxony are bickering over who should pay and what to do.
Having one of the foremost legacies in rail infrastructure in Europe, Germany because of its provincialism, its Arschkrieschen to the automobile lobby, and the tendency to save money in the wrong places, is starving the country's largest employer to death. They do not see what is going on elsewhere in Europe, while they still dream of their pathetic Autobahns.
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 11:38 PM   #297
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im an economist, but sure you must be right and krugman etc. are just idiots
Can you show me where Krugman tells that bankers shorting is the reason why Greece is in trouble? Krugman is an very intelligent man, that is why he is not making claims that all the problems we are seeing in Europe are all the fault of evil bankers.
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 11:40 PM   #298
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That is not true. A dedicated high speed line was investigated, and would have lead to travel times around 65 minutes. That's about 30 minutes faster than now.
It would have also been very expensive, which would have lead to other projects being starved of money, and less people seing their travel times reduced.
Also the point I'm making is not that the solution chosen by DB for Hamburg - Berlin was the technically best solution, of the fastest solution. The point I and others are making is that it was the best value for money solution. You do not refute that point by pointing out that a hypothetical dedicate line would have been faster. Of course it would have been faster. Originally there was even a plan for a Maglev on the route. It got cancelled because it would never have paid itself back.
Many of the current Berlin - Hamburg ICE services last longer than 1 hour 40 minutes. Gradual technical improvements would eventually bring ICE services on the dedicated Berlin - Hamburg HSR tracks a little bit under an hour.
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 11:42 PM   #299
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Are we really supposed to celebrate the fact that Berlin - Hamburg speedy in the 2010s have risen to the level of the 1930s?
Speeds have risen way above the level of the 1930s. The "Fliegende Hamburger" needed 138 minutes. The ICE currently needs 91. That is quite a bit faster.
So what is your point exactly?
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Old December 2nd, 2010, 11:46 PM   #300
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Many of the current Berlin - Hamburg ICE services last longer than 1 hour 40 minutes. Gradual technical improvements would eventually bring ICE services on the dedicated Berlin - Hamburg HSR tracks a little bit under an hour.
Most are actually either 1h31, 1h36 of 1h40, depending on the stopping pattern. Stopping in Spandau adds some minutes to the train's time, but saves a lot of time for people who's final destination is in the West of Berlin.

And yes, again, I agree that a dedicated line would have been faster. I however disagree with your opinion that the highest possible speed should be targeted regardless of the cost.
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