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Old December 3rd, 2010, 12:02 AM   #301
thun
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And yes, again, I agree that a dedicated line would have been faster. I however disagree with your opinion that the highest possible speed should be targeted regardless of the cost.
+1, for that matter.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 12:10 AM   #302
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Another big difference between Germany and Spain is that Germany is not bankrupt. The way things are evolving right now Germany might actually end up paying for the Spanish HSLs...
I don't think Spain is bankrupt either.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 02:18 AM   #303
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Currently about 10000 people travel from Berlin to Frankfurt daily. There are no direct flights anymore between the two cities. So increasing the speed between the two places would maybe grow the market a bit, but would not lead to a higher market share for rail, as everyone who doesn't drive already takes the train.
Which Frankfurt is meant by this. Because there are still more than 150 flight per week from Berlin to Frankfurt/Main. There seem to be a lot of travellers that could be gained by DB if they just could slash travel time on tracks by at least an hour.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 07:29 AM   #304
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Which Frankfurt is meant by this. Because there are still more than 150 flight per week from Berlin to Frankfurt/Main. There seem to be a lot of travellers that could be gained by DB if they just could slash travel time on tracks by at least an hour.
I have mistyped. I meant Hamburg. (We were discussing the Berlin - Hamburg line and wether it should be upgraded to a full HSL).
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 08:36 AM   #305
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That line would never have been planned and build in the time it took to upgrade the existing line.
That doesn't reflect positively on the Germans, does it? (I shall gladly broaden the scorn to most other European countries - including France...) Most of the HSLs now being built in emerging countries - not only in autocratic China, but also in fast-growing Asian democracies and, shortly, in Brazil - are planned, projected and built in a span of 5-7 years. The fact that the German "Planungsverfahren" makes everything last 15+ years is hardly something to be proud of?

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In the end what matters is not train speed but passenger speed. What matters for commuters and businessmen alike is not how fast trains go from Berlin Hbf to Hamburg Altona. What matters is door to door times from somewhere in Berlin to somewhere in Hamburg.
I couldn't agree more. The prime example of a "bastard HSL" is the Amtrak Acela Express, which prides itself of its 240 km/h top speed, but which has apallingly low average travel speeds. I would argue that an average speed of at least 200 km/h should be expected from a high-speed line, regardless of top speeds.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 09:28 AM   #306
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That doesn't reflect positively on the Germans, does it? (I shall gladly broaden the scorn to most other European countries - including France...) Most of the HSLs now being built in emerging countries - not only in autocratic China, but also in fast-growing Asian democracies and, shortly, in Brazil - are planned, projected and built in a span of 5-7 years. The fact that the German "Planungsverfahren" makes everything last 15+ years is hardly something to be proud of?
That China can build infrastructure so fast is largely due to certain features of the Chinese political system that I'd rather not see European countries emulate. There are things I value more than having the fastest trains.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 03:53 PM   #307
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Indeed. Although the German regulation is probably too extensive. The planning process certainly could be streamlined a lot without loosing democratic participation (or by even increasing it, see the discussion about the outcome of the Stuttgart21 talks and Geissler's opinion).

Nevertheless, you don't have to forget that emerging countries like China or Brazil are in a process of building the infrastructure needed for economic development whereas a country like Germany begun 175 years ago doing that and had a more or less complete infrastructure about 110 years ago (if we talk about railroads). Of course China is building a lot of HSLs - they would be stupid if they wouldn' apply latest technology. It's comparing apples with oranges.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 04:39 PM   #308
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That China can build infrastructure so fast is largely due to certain features of the Chinese political system that I'd rather not see European countries emulate. There are things I value more than having the fastest trains.
You ARE being silly - or else you're deliberately misquoting me. It was precisely to avoid the China invection that I said "... NOT ONLY in autocratic China, but also in fast-growing Asian DEMOCRACIES". I don't see how any person in honest faith can claim that I tried do make China the hero of my story!?
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 06:17 PM   #309
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You ARE being silly - or else you're deliberately misquoting me. It was precisely to avoid the China invection that I said "... NOT ONLY in autocratic China, but also in fast-growing Asian DEMOCRACIES". I don't see how any person in honest faith can claim that I tried do make China the hero of my story!?
+1

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Originally Posted by thun View Post
Indeed. Although the German regulation is probably too extensive. The planning process certainly could be streamlined a lot without loosing democratic participation (or by even increasing it, see the discussion about the outcome of the Stuttgart21 talks and Geissler's opinion).

Nevertheless, you don't have to forget that emerging countries like China or Brazil are in a process of building the infrastructure needed for economic development whereas a country like Germany begun 175 years ago doing that and had a more or less complete infrastructure about 110 years ago (if we talk about railroads). Of course China is building a lot of HSLs - they would be stupid if they wouldn' apply latest technology. It's comparing apples with oranges.
What is so wonderful about the "democracy" that is actually civil obedience masterminded by a hypocritical political party with those people on welfare popping out bloody eye balls?

One of those infamous incidents that involve "ecologically conscious" Green Party:
http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo....main/1871974/

Sure, Europe had autobahns, airports, real HSR, container ports, skyscrapers, nuclear power plants, wind farms, etc. 110 years ago, NOT!

Moving the capital back to Berlin, with the dream of turning the "kaputt" city as the new economic engine of eastern Germany and even the entire Germany is much more a money-gobbling vanity/wet-dream project than building a dedicated HSR line connecting Berlin and Hamburg. Relationship between two big metropolitan cities goes through a metamorphosis when travel time between them is unquestionably reduced to under an hour. Since so much money has been spent on the white-elephant project of transforming Berlin into something which it will unlikely become again, we might just as well build the dedicated HSR line to connect the "welfare" capital with one of the most prosperous cities in Germany to finish everything off, in order to reignite the economic synergy between the two biggest cities in Germany that were very interconnected for a long time before WWII.

By the way, take sometime to study how the failure of Narita to turn into the meaningful global gateway of Japan has benefited the latter Seoul Incheon. Japan and Germany share rather similar stages of economic development. Japan was just as developed as West Germany in the 1960s and 1970s; OMG rice farmers at Narita need to maintain their time-honored way of life.

Last edited by aab7772003; December 4th, 2010 at 02:26 AM.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 07:31 PM   #310
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Well, like it or not, we're certainly better off in a country where every opinion on something is heard, is treated equally and has a chance to influence outcomes. There's nothing I want to trade that for. Certainly not travel speed.
And for your knowledge, I wasn't specifically referring to the Greens (which - although I'm not a supporter - play an important role in how German politics look like today).
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 08:47 PM   #311
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Well, like it or not, we're certainly better off in a country where every opinion on something is heard, is treated equally and has a chance to influence outcomes. There's nothing I want to trade that for. Certainly not travel speed.
And for your knowledge, I wasn't specifically referring to the Greens (which - although I'm not a supporter - play an important role in how German politics look like today).
I DO NOT need your knowledge, aka opinions. One piece of your infamous "knowledge" is your complete ignorance of the global development of the German trade fair industry.

Yes, better off for everyone when those on welfare drag down the welfare of everyone, including those on welfare themselves, in Germany, NOT!

Democracy is not the excuse for civil disobedience. Poverty and ignorance making things worse for everyone is not really what democracy is about.

It is one thing that the underprivileged fight for more social benefits for themselves. It is another thing that their poverty and often ignorance/incompetence/narrow-mindedness/worse that eventually make Germany decline and consequently make themselves go deeper into even further degradation.

Social justice and economic developments are not always two conflicting and interlocking issues, in the case of Stuttgart 21 and the dedicated Berlin - Hamburg HSR lines.

Once again, it is really about coming up with new excuses, from total journey time, the wonderful Swiss concept and now the enviable functioning democracy. What is next? OMG.

Last edited by aab7772003; December 3rd, 2010 at 11:55 PM.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 08:55 PM   #312
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Which fast growing Asian democracies are you talking about? South Korea and Japan, democratic countries with HSR, are losing population.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 08:57 PM   #313
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Well, no-one here needs your biased redneck opinion on that topic either.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 09:55 PM   #314
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Which fast growing Asian democracies are you talking about? South Korea and Japan, democratic countries with HSR, are losing population.
South Korea would be one. I haven't checked their demographic statistics (maybe their population IS shrinking?), but they have made the transition from third world to industrialised country within the last generation. Chapeau! Taiwan would be a second example. A couple of other countries in SE Asia appear close to making the "leap of faith".

On the broader issue of divergent systems of public governance: I did not mean to spark a debate about the virtues of civic involvement versus "firm hand" government. If anything, I was alluding to my own Danish roots. I dislike autoritarianism. But, I also dislike confederalism. Surely at the end of the day, one has to agree on one "national interest"? What constitutes the national interest must be democratically decided - certainly! But railway projects of national interest cannot be materially influenced by politicians at the sub-national level, nor by mayors who resent seeing their town bypassed.

A highspeed train stops at most once per 200 km. If local interests force it to stop more often than that, then this - in my strictly personal view - is indicative of a sick political system.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 10:17 PM   #315
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South Korea would be one. I haven't checked their demographic statistics (maybe their population IS shrinking?), but they have made the transition from third world to industrialised country within the last generation. Chapeau! Taiwan would be a second example. A couple of other countries in SE Asia appear close to making the "leap of faith".
Are you really comparing the West-European democracy comparing with the ones in those countrys.
It's not because a country says it's free and democratic, that individual rights are valued as much as in Germany or most EU countrys. And I also don't want to trade that for slightly faster trains or such.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 11:44 PM   #316
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Germany needs more funds for its traffic infrastructure in general. Both, the Autobahn and rail networks are totally underfinanced.

Existing HS lines are Hannover - Göttingen - Kassel - Fulda - Würzburg (without any bypasses), Mannheim - Stuttgart, Köln - Frankfurt Airport, Hannover - Berlin and Nürnberg - Ingolstadt.

The HSR network should be extended as follows.
- general: contiguous lines of v_max 250-300km/h; usage of existing main stations ("Hbf"s) only in those cities that in the following are mentioned as intermediate points of the lines; most other cities should be bypassed, eventually with a dedicated ICE station for some (not all!) of the trains along the new tracks
- 2 lines of highest priority:
  1. Köln (Deutz and Hbf) - Frankfurt (Airport and Hbf) - Stuttgart Hbf (underground) - München Hbf; with further extensions Köln Hbf - Brussels, Köln Deutz - Düsseldorf Hbf - Amsterdam and München Hbf - Salzburg
  2. (Kopenhagen-) Hamburg Hbf - Hannover Hbf - Frankfurt Hbf - Basel (- Milan)
- additionally we need the corridors Hamburg - Berlin - Halle/Leipzig - Erfurt - Nürnberg - München, Frankfurt - Erfurt, Frankfurt - Würzburg - Nürnberg (- Regensburg - Linz) and Köln - Dortmund - Hannover - Berlin.

The planned/completed 230km/h stretches München - Augsburg, Hamburg - Berlin and Nürnberg - Ebensfeld are ok for the next years, since closing of the first two lines' gaps are much more important.
Thus, that's what's missing:
- Frankfurt - Mannheim 300km/h with Mannheim bypass (planned, thanks to Kirchturm-politicians with a useless stop at Darmstadt and without the Mannheim bypass) for Frankfurt - Stuttgart in less than 1 hour
- Stuttgart - Augsburg 250km/h with Ulm bypass and underground station at least for high speed trains in Stuttgart (currently only Stuttgart 21, Stuttgart - Ulm and a few 200km/h-kilometers between Ulm and Augsburg are planned, Ulm bypass and 250km/h line Ulm - Augsburg are completely missing) for Stuttgart - München in less than 1.5 hours
- completion of Karlsruhe - Basel 250km/h, best with a new Freiburg bypass (partly planned, partly u/c, Freiburg bypass missing) for Frankfurt - Basel in 2 hours
- Hamburg - Hannover 300km/h (planned) for a travel time of less than 1 hour
- Frankfurt - Fulda - Erfurt 250-300km/h (planned, but Fulda - Erfurt only for 160-200km/h which is way too slow, also a further accelaration of the Frankfurt Süd - Gelnhausen sector is needed) for Frankfurt - Hannover in 2 hours and Frankfurt - Erfurt in 1.5 hours
- Berlin - Halle/Leipzig - Erfurt - Nürnberg - München 300km/h (finished in the foreseeable future, only Ingolstadt - München will still be way too slow) for a travel time of 3.5 hours
- Frankfurt - Würzburg - Nürnberg 250km/h (nothing planned, there's only a small 200km/h stretch between Iphofen and Neustadt, Frankfurt - Würzburg could be accelerated if Frankfurt - Fulda is realized as 'Mottgers-Spange' but would mean a significant detour for both Frankfurt - Fulda and Frankfurt- Würzburg) for a travel time of 1.5 hours (and Hannover - Nürnberg in 2.5 hours)
- Köln - Dortmund - Hannover 250km/h (only short 200 or 230km/h stretches planned, but might be ok since it's not high priority) for a travel time of 2 hours
- 250km/h bypasses of Göttingen, Fulda and maybe Kassel (nothing planned)
- 200-250km/h international segments Amsterdam - Köln, Brussels - Köln, Nürnberg - Regensburg - Linz and Hamburg - Copenhagen (only a short 250km/h section between Köln and Aachen is finished, the rest and current plans are a joke).

Germany's population is more spread throughout the country than in France, sure, but still the vast majority lives in or near the mentioned cities and their urban/metropolitan areas. So this would be a quite good high speed coverage for most of the country's population and all its main traffic flows.

In the future, one might think about high speed lines Berlin - Warsaw, Berlin - Dresden - Prague, (München-) Regensburg - Prague and München - Innsbruck, as well as an additional acceleration of Berlin - Halle/Leipzig (currently 200km/h only, travel time of 1 hour between Berlin and the two cities might be possible then).

Last edited by Rohne; December 4th, 2010 at 12:07 AM.
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Old December 3rd, 2010, 11:47 PM   #317
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Well, no-one here needs your biased redneck opinion on that topic either.
Again, your opinions disguised as "facts."

Those Stuttgart 21 rioters are indeed biased rednecks.

Last edited by aab7772003; December 4th, 2010 at 12:26 AM.
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Old December 4th, 2010, 06:30 AM   #318
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Berlin - Halle/Leipzig - Erfurt - Nürnberg - München 300km/h (finished in the foreseeable future, only Ingolstadt - München will still be way too slow) for a travel time of 3.5 hours
This line is, I think, typical of my earlier point about a planning process that purports to aim at the national interest being hijacked by local interests. Erfurt is NOT on a straight line from Nuremberg to Berlin. Such a line would pass via Hof next to the Czech border. And, given that Hof may be too small, and the landscape too hilly, a line Nuremberg-Leipzig-Berlin would have been closer to optimal. However, the line Nuremberg-Erfurt that is now being built swerves in a slightly westernly direction, and represents a major detour, slowing down the point-to-point traffic between Munich and the Nation's Capital significantly. Having said that...

... given that the line apparently has to go via Erfurt (strong local pressures were, I think applied to the planning process?), then the second-best option would be continuation toward Berlin via a straight HS-line through Halle. However, here local interests enter the fray again, and we have now for a decade heard waffle about "Halle/Leipzig". Pardon me, but a train that has to service Nuremberg/Erfurt/Leipzig on the way between Munich and Berlin cannot be characterised as a highspeed train - regardless of how fast it runs.
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Old December 4th, 2010, 02:13 PM   #319
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What I don't get is why Germany is so reluctant to upgrade the (or even build a new) Munich - Rosenheim - Kufstein line. After all this is part of TEN corridor 1. In Austria the Neue Unterinntalbahn which allows for up to 250km/h will be opened in 2012 (four tracks). On the German side we still have a twin-tracked line with a maxspeed of 140 km/h.
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Old December 4th, 2010, 03:01 PM   #320
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Quote:
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This line is, I think, typical of my earlier point about a planning process that purports to aim at the national interest being hijacked by local interests. Erfurt is NOT on a straight line from Nuremberg to Berlin. Such a line would pass via Hof next to the Czech border. And, given that Hof may be too small, and the landscape too hilly, a line Nuremberg-Leipzig-Berlin would have been closer to optimal. However, the line Nuremberg-Erfurt that is now being built swerves in a slightly westernly direction, and represents a major detour, slowing down the point-to-point traffic between Munich and the Nation's Capital significantly. Having said that...

... given that the line apparently has to go via Erfurt (strong local pressures were, I think applied to the planning process?), then the second-best option would be continuation toward Berlin via a straight HS-line through Halle. However, here local interests enter the fray again, and we have now for a decade heard waffle about "Halle/Leipzig". Pardon me, but a train that has to service Nuremberg/Erfurt/Leipzig on the way between Munich and Berlin cannot be characterised as a highspeed train - regardless of how fast it runs.
Thanks, Rohne, for turning the subject back to railways and ending the discussions about taking away civic rights from people on welfare or the advantages of Chinese democracy and German Planfeststellungsverfahren.

Hans, what you do not see: Leipzig/Halle - Erfurt is not only part of Berlin - Munich, but also of Dresden - Frankfurt evolving HSR (if they would ever get around to completing that, see Rohne's post). Therefore the swerve to the West of Leipzig/Halle - Nuremberg is justifiable. Thuringia is one of those cases of a typical German population pattern: no city is particularly big, but overall the population is too large for a train not to stop at all in the state, like the HSR through Sachsen-Anhalt usually does. When having to choose one city, Erfurt is probably the better choice, both because it can accomodate both HSR routes and because it at least beats other cities like Jena in importance.
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