daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 4th, 2010, 03:04 PM   #321
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,885
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
This line is, I think, typical of my earlier point about a planning process that purports to aim at the national interest being hijacked by local interests. Erfurt is NOT on a straight line from Nuremberg to Berlin. Such a line would pass via Hof next to the Czech border. And, given that Hof may be too small, and the landscape too hilly, a line Nuremberg-Leipzig-Berlin would have been closer to optimal. However, the line Nuremberg-Erfurt that is now being built swerves in a slightly westernly direction, and represents a major detour, slowing down the point-to-point traffic between Munich and the Nation's Capital significantly.
Routing this rail line via Erfurt serves more than local interests. This alignment allows to pick up the Frankfurt/M-Dresden services and accelerate these as well. One stone, two birds.

The detour it takes make up just a few minutes added time. There is much more time lost elsewhere between Berlin and München. The slow passage through Erfurt and the delayed upgrade of the Ebensfeld-Nürnberg line just to name a few.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 4th, 2010, 05:03 PM   #322
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Thanks, Rohne, for turning the subject back to railways and ending the discussions about taking away civic rights from people on welfare or the advantages of Chinese democracy and German Planfeststellungsverfahren.

...
I also wish that in real world building HSR would be all about mobility and economic development rather than an easy target for the power hungry political party and the underprivileged citizens who do not travel but instead see mobility as some kind of get-rich-quick scheme for the big corporations.

Last edited by aab7772003; December 4th, 2010 at 05:27 PM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 4th, 2010, 08:22 PM   #323
hans280
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Paris
Posts: 757
Likes (Received): 173

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Thuringia is one of those cases of a typical German population pattern: no city is particularly big, but overall the population is too large for a train not to stop at all in the state, like the HSR through Sachsen-Anhalt usually does.
Yes, but... my problem is the following: couldn't you say the same thing about, for example, Dijon as representative of Burgundy and Franche Comte? The old express, before the 1980s, between Paris and Lyon had a compulsory stop ("Pflichthalt") in Dijon. The new LGV does not even get near Dijon. Highspeed trains are not a replacement for incumbent train services; they are a replacement for domestic airlines. Consequently, just like the plane from Munich to Berlin does not have an intermediate landing in Erfurt, neither should the ICE from Munich to Berlin stop in Erfurt.

I guess at the end of the day I have a much bigger question: do our German friends really want highspeed train services? Don't get me wrong - I'm sure they WANT them, but only (this would be my assertion) if they can have them on the cheap. When I say "cheap" I don't necessarily mean financial cost. Financial cost is clearly a part of the picture - real HSLs cost billions and billions of Euros, and often decades of subsidy, and it must be said that the public opinion in Germany is usually quite "thrifty". More importantly, however, is the sociatal costs. True HS concepts involve sacrificing the interests of millions and millions of citizens, who may get sharply reduced access to railway services, because this is in the interest of the majority of the population. Madrid-Barcelona reduced a number of medium-sized towns in Spain to a subsidiary status. The elevated bypass through eastern Naples has given some 30,000 people a railway line next to their bedroom windows. Little has been invested in regional rail transport in France (even in Paris!!!) since the 1980s, becaus the TGVs should receive most of the money "pour la gloire de la nation".

I have a sneaky feeling that most Germans would find that if THAT is the price of highspeed rail then... no thanks.

Last edited by hans280; December 4th, 2010 at 08:32 PM.
hans280 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2010, 12:07 PM   #324
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
You ARE being silly - or else you're deliberately misquoting me. It was precisely to avoid the China invection that I said "... NOT ONLY in autocratic China, but also in fast-growing Asian DEMOCRACIES". I don't see how any person in honest faith can claim that I tried do make China the hero of my story!?
I am not claiming you tried to make China the hero of your story.
However, currently nobody is building HSLs as fast as China. Not even other fast growing Asian Democracies...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2010, 12:15 PM   #325
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
On the broader issue of divergent systems of public governance: I did not mean to spark a debate about the virtues of civic involvement versus "firm hand" government. If anything, I was alluding to my own Danish roots. I dislike autoritarianism. But, I also dislike confederalism. Surely at the end of the day, one has to agree on one "national interest"? What constitutes the national interest must be democratically decided - certainly! But railway projects of national interest cannot be materially influenced by politicians at the sub-national level, nor by mayors who resent seeing their town bypassed.
Who decides what is "national interest". You think that certain practices in the construction and operation of high speeds railways are more optimal to others. And you might be even right on that point.
However, the question here is not about "how to we get the most efficient infrastructure", but "how to we get all the stakeholders on board".
In the end there is a lot to be said for allowing some inefficiencies exist in exchange for not excluding large parts of the population...

Quote:
A highspeed train stops at most once per 200 km. If local interests force it to stop more often than that, then this - in my strictly personal view - is indicative of a sick political system.
In Japan some high speed trains stop every 20 to 40 km or so.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2010, 12:22 PM   #326
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
I guess at the end of the day I have a much bigger question: do our German friends really want highspeed train services? Don't get me wrong - I'm sure they WANT them, but only (this would be my assertion) if they can have them on the cheap. When I say "cheap" I don't necessarily mean financial cost. Financial cost is clearly a part of the picture - real HSLs cost billions and billions of Euros, and often decades of subsidy, and it must be said that the public opinion in Germany is usually quite "thrifty". More importantly, however, is the sociatal costs. True HS concepts involve sacrificing the interests of millions and millions of citizens, who may get sharply reduced access to railway services, because this is in the interest of the majority of the population. Madrid-Barcelona reduced a number of medium-sized towns in Spain to a subsidiary status. The elevated bypass through eastern Naples has given some 30,000 people a railway line next to their bedroom windows. Little has been invested in regional rail transport in France (even in Paris!!!) since the 1980s, becaus the TGVs should receive most of the money "pour la gloire de la nation".

I have a sneaky feeling that most Germans would find that if THAT is the price of highspeed rail then... no thanks.
And shouldn't they be entitled to thinking that?

One big difference between Germany and Spain and France becomes immediately clear if you look at a map of population densities. Spain is basically Madrid and the coastal areas, with hardly much of importance in between. So building a HSL - Madrid - Barcelona that bypasses a lot of towns in between does inconvenience some people, but not as many as say bypassing Mannheim on the way from Frankfurt to Stuttgart would.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2010, 12:43 PM   #327
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
The new LGV does not even get near Dijon. Highspeed trains are not a replacement for incumbent train services; they are a replacement for domestic airlines.
In Germany High speed trains are a way of improving the network firstly. DB started an IC network in the 70ies that aimed at having convenient connections between all major hubs in Germany. What they did since then was mostly gradually improving it by just speeding up parts of it. So yes, in Germany its mostly about replacing imcumbent services with faster ones. And what is wrong with that?

It's an approach that I think suits Germany well.

The French approach has always been to improve relations with Paris. The LGV does indeed not pass by, or stop in Dijon, with the consequence that, although trip times from Dijon to Paris decreased substantially, those from Dijon to the south didn't improve that much. That is going to change however, as France is building the LGV Rhin - Rhone, which will put Dijon in the middle of star of lines going in all directions. SNCF has realized that they dominate the to/from Paris market, and that if they want to continue to grow they need to server the "province - province" market better. DB has on the other hand has always served the local and medium distance market better, because Germany never had an equivalent of Paris.


Quote:
Consequently, just like the plane from Munich to Berlin does not have an intermediate landing in Erfurt, neither should the ICE from Munich to Berlin stop in Erfurt.
That planes don't (usually) have intermediate stops is one of their biggest disadvantages. It's one high speed rail should not copy. By stopping in Erfurt the ICE also serves the München - Erfurt and Erfurt - Berlin markets. And by stopping at major nodal points in your network you offer even more value. Railways are not a collection of services, they are a network, and the value of a network is proportional to the square of the number of points it connects.

Of course, if there is enough demand to have both a non stop ICE München - Berlin, and one that stops in Erfurt, than it makes sense to offer both.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2010, 04:14 PM   #328
Rohne
Schwarzkutte
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Franconofurd
Posts: 830
Likes (Received): 361

hans, passenger demand on the Berlin - München (with intermediate stops in Nürnberg, Erfurt and Halle or Leipzig) line justifies not more than an hourly train per direction. So building a straight line via Hof with even less intermediate stops would be a waste of money. By routing the trains via Erfurt, the utilisation of most parts of this line drastically increases to more economical levels since it will also be used by Frankfurt - Berlin (will be hourly via Erfurt, since this routing is faster than the current one via Braunschweig) and the even so hourly Frankfurt - Dresden ICEs.
That's just consequent. You could also demand a direct Frankfurt - München (in opposite to existing lines via Nürnberg or Stuttgart respectively) or Paris - Calais direct and not via Lille... But you would hardly be able to make such routings economically viable.
Rohne no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2010, 04:22 PM   #329
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
...
That planes don't (usually) have intermediate stops is one of their biggest disadvantages. It's one high speed rail should not copy.
...
Modern jetliners with their ever-improving fuel economy are designed to fly as long as possible without stopping. The increased range with increased payload is actually their biggest advantage. Airline network planning achieves the biggest operational efficiency for airlines and maximum network connectivity with shortest travel time for the maximum amount of passengers through a hub-and-spoke system.

HSR is fundamentally designed to make as few stops as possible. The discussion on making fewer stops or not is not relevant for HSR simply becuase there should NOT be any discussion about it. IC stands for InterCity and ICE stands for InterCity Express, not complete network express. First and foremost, ICE with true high speed travel time is really designed to serve the first-tier cities within Germany and major cities in the rest of Europe.

Germany might not have Paris, but many people had wet dreams of turning Berlin into the German Paris and London once again at the time of reunification through the subsequent very expensive but very cost ineffective capital relocation vanity project. Also, the fact that Germany does not have its own equivalent of Paris and London does not change the fact that there are first-tier cities within the country where the majority of population and economic activities concentrate.

Thinking should evolve with the evolving reality. People thought the world was flat before Galileo came around and they persecuted him consequently so as to keep their thinking alive.

Last edited by aab7772003; December 5th, 2010 at 04:39 PM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2010, 06:34 PM   #330
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
HSR is fundamentally designed to make as few stops as possible.
Since when? Have a look at JR's Kodama services if you will...

Quote:
The discussion on making fewer stops or not is not relevant for HSR simply becuase there should NOT be any discussion about it.
You declaring something not subject to discussion does not mean a lot though.

Quote:
IC stands for InterCity and ICE stands for InterCity Express, not complete network express. First and foremost, ICE with true high speed travel time is really designed to serve the first-tier cities within Germany and major cities in the rest of Europe.
It's "Inter City Express" because it was conceived to improve an already existing IC network by speeding up parts of it.
Anyway, stopping in 2nd tier city can speed up connections between 1st tier cities. For example: that all trains from Frankfurt to Stuttgart and Basel stop in Mannheim has as an effect that the number of options to get from Frankfurt to Stuttgart or Basel doubles.

Quote:
Also, the fact that Germany does not have its own equivalent of Paris and London does not change the fact that there are first-tier cities within the country where the majority of population and economic activities concentrate.
The difference is that in France the "1st tier city" is Paris for everyone. In Germany it's Frankfurt, to München, or Köln, or Hamburg or...
For someone living within 150 km of München fast connections with that city are of more importance than fast connections with Berlin.

The other thing is that minor cities deserve rail connections too. If there is a market for a non stop München - Berlin train next to a train that does München - Nürnberg - Erfurt - Halle - Berlin than by all means run both. If however the market isn't there to run both trains the smart choice is to run the one with more stops.

Quote:
Thinking should evolve with the evolving reality. People thought the world was flat before Galileo came around and they persecuted him consequently so as to keep their thinking alive.
Which is why thinking evolved in France should not be forced on the reality of Germany.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2010, 06:41 PM   #331
Rev Stickleback
Registered User
 
Rev Stickleback's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 2,121
Likes (Received): 2001

Quote:
Originally Posted by hans280 View Post
A highspeed train stops at most once per 200 km. If local interests force it to stop more often than that, then this - in my strictly personal view - is indicative of a sick political system.
...or it may just be indicative of the location of that country's major cities.
Rev Stickleback no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2010, 06:56 PM   #332
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Since when? Have a look at JR's Kodama services if you will...
You know better, not. Shinkansen features different services, from Superexpress to Kodama services. It is one thing to use ICE/Shinkansen carriages for regular services; it is another thing to build dedicated Berlin - Hamburg HSR lines. You could run multiple-stop services when you have 300 km/h tracks, but you can never run 300 km/h services on 200 km/h tracks. Operationally, you can provide short-haul services with ultra-long-haul planes, but not the other way around.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
...
It's "Inter City Express" because it was conceived to improve an already existing IC network by speeding up parts of it.
Anyway, stopping in 2nd tier city can speed up connections between 1st tier cities. For example: that all trains from Frankfurt to Stuttgart and Basel stop in Mannheim has as an effect that the number of options to get from Frankfurt to Stuttgart or Basel doubles.
...
Cities such as Darmstadt should not receive ICE services at all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
...
The other thing is that minor cities deserve rail connections too. If there is a market for a non stop München - Berlin train next to a train that does München - Nürnberg - Erfurt - Halle - Berlin than by all means run both. If however the market isn't there to run both trains the smart choice is to run the one with more stops.
...
They do indeed, but they do NOT deserve ALL rail connections. As I said earlier, superior transportation connections is one of the major reasons why the cost of living in global and first-tier cities is much higher. If you living in a provincial town want to live like the big boys in the global cities, then pay the price for it or better yet move. By the way, I am not the one who promotes Berlin - Munich nonstop services.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
...
Which is why thinking evolved in France should not be forced on the reality of Germany.
Which is why what is good for Switzerland should not be forced sale as one-of-its-kind that is also the envy of the world.

Last edited by aab7772003; December 5th, 2010 at 08:14 PM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2010, 08:01 PM   #333
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I am not claiming you tried to make China the hero of your story.
However, currently nobody is building HSLs as fast as China. Not even other fast growing Asian Democracies...
Should we not take a really close look at the development of HSR in China when you previously could not emphasize Switzerland enough? Apparently many Asian countries, the democratic ones or else, examine the HSR development in China rather closely.

Last edited by aab7772003; December 5th, 2010 at 08:13 PM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2010, 08:12 PM   #334
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Who decides what is "national interest". You think that certain practices in the construction and operation of high speeds railways are more optimal to others. And you might be even right on that point.
However, the question here is not about "how to we get the most efficient infrastructure", but "how to we get all the stakeholders on board".
In the end there is a lot to be said for allowing some inefficiencies exist in exchange for not excluding large parts of the population...
...
Not everyone should define "national interest." Let´s say some wacko wants to engage in industrial-scale orange growing in Germany, he does not travel a lot and naturally thinks that the German government should subsidize his crazy idea instead of financing the 21st-century-standard railway infrastructure. In short, some illegitimate stakeholders should simply be left behind.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2010, 08:16 PM   #335
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rev Stickleback View Post
...or it may just be indicative of the location of that country's major cities.
Often many major cities in Germany are not only 50, 60 kilometers apart.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2010, 08:37 PM   #336
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,885
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
So building a HSL - Madrid - Barcelona that bypasses a lot of towns in between does inconvenience some people, but not as many as say bypassing Mannheim on the way from Frankfurt to Stuttgart would.
For whom exactly is a Mannheim bypass inconvenient?

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The other thing is that minor cities deserve rail connections too. If there is a market for a non stop München - Berlin train next to a train that does München - Nürnberg - Erfurt - Halle - Berlin than by all means run both. If however the market isn't there to run both trains the smart choice is to run the one with more stops.
The market is there as flight stats show. Without bypasses, however, such through services are hardly faster than a regular ICE service. Which means that rail doesn't gain any mode share.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2010, 10:30 PM   #337
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
For whom exactly is a Mannheim bypass inconvenient?
Currently the trains from Frankfurt via Mannheim alternate to Basel and München, and so do trains from Köln. In Mannheim connections between the services exists, thus creating hourly connections between Basel and Köln, between Frankfurt and Basel etc..., even though direct trains only go once every two hours These trains cannot be discontinued without inconveniencing (and thus losing) a lot of passengers. So a Mannheim bypass would only be used by new non stop services. The question remains if the benefits justify the cost.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2010, 10:31 PM   #338
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
The market is there as flight stats show. Without bypasses, however, such through services are hardly faster than a regular ICE service. Which means that rail doesn't gain any mode share.
If they get travel time under 4 hours they'll get a significant share of the market. And a travel time under 4 hours is what is currently aimed for with the on going projects. And with the route via Erfurt...
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2010, 10:51 PM   #339
Coccodrillo
Moderator
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 7,200
Likes (Received): 767

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
In Japan some high speed trains stop every 20 to 40 km or so.
But there are also no-stop trains.

I don't understand why there can't be both types of services also in Germany and France.
__________________
1.6.2016: Basistunnel!

für Güter die Bahn ~ pour vos marchandises le rail ~ chi dice merci dice ferrovia
Coccodrillo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 5th, 2010, 10:56 PM   #340
Berlin.
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 216
Likes (Received): 5

There are no-stop trains in Germany.. ICE Sprinter!!
Berlin. no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
ice

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium