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Old December 5th, 2010, 10:56 PM   #341
maniei
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
Cities such as Darmstadt should not receive ICE services at all.

They do indeed, but they do NOT deserve ALL rail connections. As I said earlier, superior transportation connections is one of the major reasons why the cost of living in global and first-tier cities is much higher. If you living in a provincial town want to live like the big boys in the global cities, then pay the price for it or better yet move. By the way, I am not the one who promotes Berlin - Munich nonstop services.
Why do you say that?
I think you dont know Darmstadt.

Darmstadt is the scientific heart of the Rhein/Main region, and maybe even the No.1 of Germany in science. There is a very high demand for an ICE stop in Darmstadt.
Not even DB, that was determined to pass Darmstadt on Frankfurt-Mannheim, could close its eyes on it. So there is going to be a stop in Darmstadt now.

Stopping in Darmstadt is nothing abnormal at all. As long as you are within a metropolitan area you can have a low distance between the stops in order to gather as much passengers as possible. Only when you travel between the metropolitan areas you can speed it up and pass some cities.
How else do you want to explain the ICE stop in Hanau, or also Berlin-Spandau?

There is only this awkward constellation in south/west Germany were the Rhein/Main, Rhein/Neckar and Stuttgart metropolitan areas are very close to each other.

Anyways, Mannheim deserves an ICE stop because its the center of the Rhein/Neckar metropolitan area (not the mightiest one, but still). So does Darmstadt, because of its importance. The official population number doesnt tell much about a cities importance. Essen is not Germany's 6th most important citiy, because it has the 6th highst population.
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Old December 5th, 2010, 11:24 PM   #342
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exactly your thinking is the big problem of Germany's ICE network.

Mannheim bypass is part of the new line Frankfurt - Mannheim. With this project finished, you will see significant increase of ICE traffic from Frankfurt and Frankfurt Airport to the south. You can bet your a*** that the trains Northern Germany - Frankfurt - Stuttgart - München, Hamburg/Berlin - Frankfurt - Basel and Köln - Frankfurt Airport - Stuttgart - München will run hourly each. So the only connecting possibility for which a stop in Mannheim is needed is to make the relation Köln - Basel hourly too, meaning that Frankfurt - Basel and Köln - Stuttgart trains would have to stop at the same time in Mannheim. These ICE trains (as well IC services that won't be abolished at all) would also be enough for the integration of Mannheim itself into the network. All other ICE trains (will be at least 2 per hour and direction) don't need to stop there and thus are desperately needing the Mannheim bypass which will save nearly 10 minutes. Btw, Frankfurt Hbf - Stuttgart within 1 hour is only possible via this bypass.

And Darmstadt... sorry, but hourly ICs in both directions are definitely enough for Darmstadt. It's not the DB that wants the stop in Darmstadt but typical Kirchturm-politicians. Darmstadt is too close between Frankfurt and Mannheim (travel time between F and MA is just half an hour), so a stop there is senseless. Trains would be amidst acceleration when they already have to speed down in order to stop in Darmstadt. That's not the purpose of high speed trains! People from Darmstadt can go to Frankfurt and Mannheim in short time and change trains there if they need to travel with ICEs.
Hanau also is a stop that better wouldn't exist within the ICE network. Berlin-Spandau is a different case since Berlin is the terminating point of most ICEs - in contrast to Frankfurt where Hanau and Darmstadt are located.

Last edited by Rohne; December 5th, 2010 at 11:36 PM.
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Old December 5th, 2010, 11:50 PM   #343
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maybe I expressed myself wrong. I'm definitely not saying that all ICE's should stop Mannheim or Darmstadt.
I'm only saying that these cities need to be connected to the ICE-network, and not be passed completely.

Your view regarding Darmstadt might appear logical, but its not correct. I cant blame anyone.
DB was thinking exactly the same way, untill they let themselves be convinced about the importance of Darmstadt, and the exeptionally high demand for an ICE stop.
Then they commited themselves to stopping in Darmstadt, and signed a decleration!
The IC service of Darmstadt is no enough anymore.

You havent explained to me why Hanau is an ICe stop, despite being even closer to Frankfurt.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 01:52 AM   #344
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Many so-called cities in Germany are actually part of the metropolitan areas of the first-tier cities these days. As I said in an earlier post, the list of important cities in any person´s own country just keeps growing and growing. Using the logic of a city being "very important" with a couple of thriving industries, Leverkusen, a practical suburb of Cologne, can also claim that it should receive hourly ICE services because of Bayer.

In terms of importance, the Frankfurt airport long distance station is Mannheim and Darmstadt rolled into one.

Remember, there are also S-Bahn, RB, RE, IRE, IC services. All these "me toos" with political sanctions and civil disobedience completely turn ICE services into ultra deluxe S-Bahn services.

Quote:
Originally Posted by maniei View Post
...
Darmstadt is the scientific heart of the Rhein/Main region, and maybe even the No.1 of Germany in science. There is a very high demand for an ICE stop in Darmstadt.


...So does Darmstadt, because of its importance. The official population number doesnt tell much about a cities importance. Essen is not Germany's 6th most important citiy, because it has the 6th highst population.
Darmstadt is the hinterland of Frankfurt; the Silicon Valley is the hinterland of San Francisco. Darmstadt´s "importance" is enhanced by its proximity to Frankfurt rather than Frankfurt´s importance is enhanced by its proximity to Darmstadt.

Last edited by aab7772003; December 7th, 2010 at 07:19 PM.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 10:31 AM   #345
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Originally Posted by Coccodrillo View Post
But there are also no-stop trains.

I don't understand why there can't be both types of services also in Germany and France.
Sure there can be. I've never said otherwhise.
However the Germans have a different philosphy than the French here. When the LGV Est opened travel times from for example Metz to Paris decreased, but from Metz to Strassbourg there are now less fast trains then before. The way the line was build it only realy allows speeding up travel between towns in the East and Paris, but not between these towns. That's because the line bypasses all towns.

In Germany the idea is to speed up existing services, with the idea that a network that manages to get a certain amount of customers will get more customers if it's faster. So a train A-B-C-D does't get replaced with a faster train A-B, another faster A-C and another faster A-D like is common in France. It gets in first instance replaced with a faster A-B-C-D train. Of course, if the market is there, an A-D train can be added too. There is nothing against that. But I think DB is right to think first about it's existing customers.

Interestingly this idea seems to gain traction in France too, as quite a few HSL projects currently under study go from hub to hub, and don't all bypass them. The Lyon bypass is, after all, still heavily underutilised. SNCF seems to be unable to avoid having most TGVs in Lyon Part-Dieu. Look at the LGV Rhin-Rhone project. It will not bypass Dijon, on the contrary. And it seems to take a much more incremental approach too.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 10:38 AM   #346
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Originally Posted by Rohne View Post

Mannheim bypass is part of the new line Frankfurt - Mannheim. With this project finished, you will see significant increase of ICE traffic from Frankfurt and Frankfurt Airport to the south.
My argument is not that a Mannheim bypass would be useless. It wouldn't. It would indeed speed up some services. I do however have my doubts that it is useful enough to justify taking money away from other projects to build this.
The budget for HSLs in Germany is limited, and what is spent on one project can't be spend on another.

Quote:
You can bet your a*** that the trains Northern Germany - Frankfurt - Stuttgart - München, Hamburg/Berlin - Frankfurt - Basel and Köln - Frankfurt Airport - Stuttgart - München will run hourly each. So the only connecting possibility for which a stop in Mannheim is needed is to make the relation Köln - Basel hourly too, meaning that Frankfurt - Basel and Köln - Stuttgart trains would have to stop at the same time in Mannheim.
That is what is done right now, in fact. I change trains in Mannheim several times a year on my way to Köln. Never had to be in Mannheim itself though. It's a bit like Olten in Switzerland. The town itself doesn't justify the services it gets, but it's function within the whole network does.

The important point is that by having all trains call at major network nodes you vastly increase the travel options you offer your customers. This will gain you more passengers, even if it adds a few more minutes to a train ride.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 04:16 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
...
The important point is that by having all trains call at major network nodes you vastly increase the travel options you offer your customers. This will gain you more passengers, even if it adds a few more minutes to a train ride.
Rather, it is a point that YOU attach paramount importance to. DB is also interested in dramatically increasing passengers traveling between first-tier cities within Germany and between other major European cities and Germany on its trains.

Again, the ultimate time improvement gained from the dedicated Berlin - Hamburg HSR line in comparison with the existing upgraded services would be as much as 45 minutes. Dramatic travel time reduction is also a critical travel option. Back in the "Flying Hamburger" days, those Berlin - Hamburg express trains were definitely elite services, unlike the Berlin - Hamburg ICE services of today for practically everyone. In a word, the market has grown. Travel options have to be reinvented in order to anticipate new demands as a result of the market growth.

Someone has conveniently forgotten to mention that the time when the TGV network is about Paris and the rest of France is long over. It has been almost thirty years since France has launched the Paris - Lyon TGV services. The TGV network today is also about Paris and the rest of Europe.

Do not expect the same level of transportation services first-tier cities enjoy if you live in a small town. Transportation is NOT universal health care. If you enjoy whatever qualities small towns possess, then live with the minuses of living there.

Last edited by aab7772003; December 8th, 2010 at 02:54 AM.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 08:21 PM   #348
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Germany's backbone of long-haul rail services with emphasis on infrastructure provision is the IC network. It's sad that politicians' behaviours ("My farm needs an ICE stop, too. Ideally all trains have to stop here!") has led to the impression that the IC network is only a second-class network, but in reality, this is were cities should fight for a stop. Those trains are also able to run rather fast at 200km/h. In fact the 230km/h ICE-T trains and their routes and stops also are not more than ICs.
The ICE network instead is Germany's approach to gradually implement a high speed network. Stopping in smaller cities such as Darmstadt that additionally are located much too close to larger population centers would be counterproductive. If you stop at Darmstadt, you could also stop in Leverkusen, Pforzheim, Esslingen, Fürth, Erlangen, Magdeburg, etc etc. You don't need high speed trains (= ICE material) for such a service! High speed rail only plays out its strengths when the distances between the stops are large enough that the trains can run some time at top speed. Mannheim already is too close to Frankfurt so that the bypass is desperately needed even now! If you additionally stop in Darmstadt, you could better do without any high speed trains... There's no legitimation for any ICE trains stopping in Darmstadt.
As I already said: IC services are enough for this city (even regional trains only need a few minutes from Darmstadt to Frankfurt), that directly borders the Frankfurt urban area. DB doesn't want to make Darmstadt a ICE stop, only politicians are forcing DB to do so with the new Frankfurt-Mannheim line, but economically and network wise it still doesn't make the slightest sense.

This "under 4 hours" approach is bulls***. Hamburg - München in less than 4 hours is rather fast, Frankfurt - München or Nürnberg - Berlin in "under 4 hours" is not more than a bad joke!

Last edited by Rohne; December 6th, 2010 at 08:38 PM.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 08:40 PM   #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohne View Post
Germany's backbone of long-haul rail services with emphasis on infrastructure provision is the IC network. It's sad that politicians' behaviours ("My farm needs an ICE stop, too. Ideally all trains have to stop here!") has led to the impression that the IC network is only a second-class network, but in reality, this is were cities should fight for a stop. Those trains are also able to run rather fast at 200km/h. In fact the 230km/h ICE-T trains and their routes and stops also are not more than ICs.
The ICE network instead is Germany's approach to gradually implement a high speed network. Stopping in smaller cities such as Darmstadt that additionally are located much too close to larger population centers would be counterproductive. If you stop at Darmstadt, you could also stop in Leverkusen, Pforzheim, Esslingen, Fürth, Erlangen, Magdeburg, etc etc. You don't need high speed trains (= ICE material) for such a service! High speed rail only plays out its strengths when the distances between the stops are large enough that the trains can run some time at top speed. Mannheim already is too close to Frankfurt so that the bypass is desperately needed even now! If you additionally stop in Darmstadt, you could better do without any high speed trains... There's no legitimation for any ICE trains stopping in Darmstadt.
As I already said: IC services are enough for this city (even regional trains only need a few minutes from Darmstadt to Frankfurt), that directly borders the Frankfurt urban area. DB doesn't want to make Darmstadt a ICE stop, only politicians are forcing DB to do so with the new Frankfurt-Mannheim line, but economically and network wise it still doesn't make the slightest sense.

This "under 4 hours" approach is bulls***. Hamburg - München in less than 4 hours is rather fast, Frankfurt - München or Nürnberg - Berlin in "under 4 hours" is not more than a bad joke!
+1000000


Last edited by aab7772003; December 7th, 2010 at 02:18 AM.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 08:55 PM   #350
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if you're competing against air travel it certainly isn't bull***
In air travel it doesn't really make much difference if you travel 500km or 1500 km, it roughly takes the same time because the majority of the time is spent in check-in, take off, landing, luggage recovery.
So if a rail trip is between 2 and 4 hours, it certainly copetes against air travel, whatever the distance is.
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Old December 6th, 2010, 09:01 PM   #351
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Originally Posted by pietje01 View Post
if you're competing against air travel it certainly isn't bull***
In air travel it doesn't really make much difference if you travel 500km or 1500 km, it roughly takes the same time because the majority of the time is spent in check-in, take off, landing, luggage recovery.
So if a rail trip is between 2 and 4 hours, it certainly copetes against air travel, whatever the distance is.
Traveling by rail between Hamburg and Munich lasts a lot more than 4 hours, thanks to the ICE as the ultra deluxe S-Bahn system in Germany. Business travelers with hand luggage only and online check-in boarding passes usually spend no more than 30 minutes to get in and out of the airports within the Schengen-zone Europe.

Last edited by aab7772003; December 7th, 2010 at 02:18 AM.
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Old December 7th, 2010, 09:50 AM   #352
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Originally Posted by Rohne View Post
Germany's backbone of long-haul rail services with emphasis on infrastructure provision is the IC network. It's sad that politicians' behaviours ("My farm needs an ICE stop, too. Ideally all trains have to stop here!") has led to the impression that the IC network is only a second-class network, but in reality, this is were cities should fight for a stop. Those trains are also able to run rather fast at 200km/h. In fact the 230km/h ICE-T trains and their routes and stops also are not more than ICs.
The problem is of course that if you build with public money the politicians to get a say. That's how the game is played in a democracy. It may be suboptimal, but it beats the alternatives.

Quote:
The ICE network instead is Germany's approach to gradually implement a high speed network. Stopping in smaller cities such as Darmstadt that additionally are located much too close to larger population centers would be counterproductive. If you stop at Darmstadt, you could also stop in Leverkusen, Pforzheim, Esslingen, Fürth, Erlangen, Magdeburg, etc etc. You don't need high speed trains (= ICE material) for such a service!
Currently the plan seems to be for a station to be build near Darmstadt on the new line, and for some trains (but not all) to stop there. Seems quite reasonable to me.

Quote:
High speed rail only plays out its strengths when the distances between the stops are large enough that the trains can run some time at top speed. Mannheim already is too close to Frankfurt so that the bypass is desperately needed even now!
The problem is that the bypass is not going to receive any public money. DB can build it if they want, but at their own expense. And their lies the rub. The bypass will certainly be useful, but will it be useful enough to justify the cost? I wouldn't mind seeing it build, but there is a lot that I would like seeing build however, and the budget is not unlimited,

(Notice however how the biggest advantage of the Mannheim bypass often quoted is that it would bring Frankfurt - Stuttgart to just under an hour, which is optimal in a Integral Interval Timetable, something that is still a dirty word for some people on this forum...)
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Old December 7th, 2010, 10:59 AM   #353
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It has been almost twenty years since France has launched the Paris - Lyon TGV services. The TGV network today is more about Paris and the rest of Europe.
30 years.
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Old December 7th, 2010, 11:25 AM   #354
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
In terms of importance, the Frankfurt airport long distance station is Mannheim and Darmstadt rolled into one. Remember, there are S-Bahn, RB, RE, IRE, IC services.
There are no S-Bahn, RB, RE, IRE or any other services from Frankfurt Flughafen Fernbahnhof to anywhere else. Mannheim central station has 100,000 passengers per day, Darmstadt has 30,000, Frankfurt Flughafen Fernbahnhof has 23,000.

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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
(Notice however how the biggest advantage of the Mannheim bypass often quoted is that it would bring Frankfurt - Stuttgart to just under an hour, which is optimal in a Integral Interval Timetable, something that is still a dirty word for some people on this forum...)
Actually, both the variants with and without a bypass were calculated to fit inside an ITF. The bypass just allows for more flexibility (read: more late trains) by shaving off 150 seconds. There are other options for achieving the same, such as speeding up the intermittent tracks (Mannheim - Stuttgart is only 280 km/h max for example).

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Originally Posted by Rohne View Post
Berlin-Spandau is a different case since Berlin is the terminating point of most ICEs - in contrast to Frankfurt where Hanau and Darmstadt are located.
The continuous Rhine-Main-Neckar-Stuttgart (RMNS) metropolitan areas have 15 million people. If Berlin gets one ICE station, RMNS gets four. If Berlin gets two ICE stations, RMNS gets eight. If Berlin gets five (HBf, Südkreuz, Gesundbrunnen, Spandau, BBI Schönefeld), RMNS gets twenty. And that's not even accounting for the population being not as concentrated. So, how many ICE stops do we have in the RMNS area right now?
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Old December 7th, 2010, 12:37 PM   #355
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Originally Posted by kato2k8 View Post
Actually, both the variants with and without a bypass were calculated to fit inside an ITF. The bypass just allows for more flexibility (read: more late trains) by shaving off 150 seconds. There are other options for achieving the same, such as speeding up the intermittent tracks (Mannheim - Stuttgart is only 280 km/h max for example).
That makes the case for the bypass even weaker...
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Old December 7th, 2010, 12:56 PM   #356
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Stuttgart 21 also comes into play there. The ITF calculations are based on S21 being built as planned; which has been getting increasingly unlikely. With "K21" or any other alternatives built, we can forget about a 55- or 57-minute travel time as we have to add two or three minutes here and there.
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Old December 7th, 2010, 05:45 PM   #357
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
...
(Notice however how the biggest advantage of the Mannheim bypass often quoted is that it would bring Frankfurt - Stuttgart to just under an hour, which is optimal in a Integral Interval Timetable, something that is still a dirty word for some people on this forum...)
You made it previously sound like that Switzerland has invented the concept and Germany simply could not master the concept.


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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The problem is of course that if you build with public money the politicians to get a say. That's how the game is played in a democracy. It may be suboptimal, but it beats the alternatives.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
Not everyone should define "national interest." Let´s say some wacko wants to engage in industrial-scale orange growing in Germany, he does not travel a lot and naturally thinks that the German government should subsidize his crazy idea instead of financing the 21st-century-standard railway infrastructure. In short, some illegitimate stakeholders should simply be left behind.
Again, do not forget the "tyranny of majority" phenomenon. You cannot have a blind faith in democracy as special interest groups, including those formed by angry, poor and ignorant mobs, can manipulate democracy to their absolute advantage at the maximum dertiment to anyone else.

The "democracy" you are talking about is the democracy we are striving for; the voice of everyone is heard so we will have a better tomorrow for everyone. However, even in Germany, democracy often exists as pork-barrel politics in reality.

Last edited by aab7772003; December 8th, 2010 at 06:16 AM.
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Old December 7th, 2010, 07:05 PM   #358
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That makes the case for the bypass even weaker...
1. More trains
2. Schedule flexibility
3. Decreased travel time
4. Stuttgart 21

There is also something called "synergy." Deutsche Bahn is building for the future while you pretty much call for short-term solutions. The project is part of the puzzle that will drastrically reduce the travel time between all first-tier cities in western Germany.

Last edited by aab7772003; December 7th, 2010 at 07:27 PM.
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Old December 7th, 2010, 07:16 PM   #359
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Originally Posted by kato2k8 View Post
There are no S-Bahn, RB, RE, IRE or any other services from Frankfurt Flughafen Fernbahnhof to anywhere else. Mannheim central station has 100,000 passengers per day, Darmstadt has 30,000, Frankfurt Flughafen Fernbahnhof has 23,000.
...
I know that actually because it is technically infeasible to expand the original station underneath FRA Teriminal 1. I also see that many passengers at Mannheim and Darmstadt are the so-called "intra-" Landkreis passengers. I should have made the following into a separate paragraph in order to make myself clearer.

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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
...
Remember, there are also S-Bahn, RB, RE, IRE, IC services. All these "me toos" with political sanctions and civil disobedience completely turn ICE services into ultra deluxe S-Bahn services.
...

Last edited by aab7772003; December 7th, 2010 at 07:24 PM.
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Old December 7th, 2010, 11:02 PM   #360
maniei
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Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
Many so-called cities in Germany are actually part of the metropolitan areas of the first-tier cities these days. As I said in an earlier post, the list of important cities in any person´s own country just keeps growing and growing. Using the logic of a city being "very important" with a couple of thriving industries, Leverkusen, a practical suburb of Cologne, can also claim that it should receive hourly ICE services because of Bayer.

In terms of importance, the Frankfurt airport long distance station is Mannheim and Darmstadt rolled into one.

Remember, there are also S-Bahn, RB, RE, IRE, IC services. All these "me toos" with political sanctions and civil disobedience completely turn ICE services into ultra deluxe S-Bahn services.

Darmstadt is the hinterland of Frankfurt; the Silicon Valley is the hinterland of San Francisco. Darmstadt´s "importance" is enhanced by its proximity to Frankfurt rather than Frankfurt´s importance is enhanced by its proximity to Darmstadt.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohne View Post
Germany's backbone of long-haul rail services with emphasis on infrastructure provision is the IC network. It's sad that politicians' behaviours ("My farm needs an ICE stop, too. Ideally all trains have to stop here!") has led to the impression that the IC network is only a second-class network, but in reality, this is were cities should fight for a stop. Those trains are also able to run rather fast at 200km/h. In fact the 230km/h ICE-T trains and their routes and stops also are not more than ICs.
The ICE network instead is Germany's approach to gradually implement a high speed network. Stopping in smaller cities such as Darmstadt that additionally are located much too close to larger population centers would be counterproductive. If you stop at Darmstadt, you could also stop in Leverkusen, Pforzheim, Esslingen, Fürth, Erlangen, Magdeburg, etc etc. You don't need high speed trains (= ICE material) for such a service! High speed rail only plays out its strengths when the distances between the stops are large enough that the trains can run some time at top speed. Mannheim already is too close to Frankfurt so that the bypass is desperately needed even now! If you additionally stop in Darmstadt, you could better do without any high speed trains... There's no legitimation for any ICE trains stopping in Darmstadt.
As I already said: IC services are enough for this city (even regional trains only need a few minutes from Darmstadt to Frankfurt), that directly borders the Frankfurt urban area. DB doesn't want to make Darmstadt a ICE stop, only politicians are forcing DB to do so with the new Frankfurt-Mannheim line, but economically and network wise it still doesn't make the slightest sense.
I dont want to drag the discussion from general talk about German HSR to the city of Darmstadt, but I think Darmstadt serves as a very good object for having a fundamental discussion - when does a city deserve to be an ICE stop?

Darmstadt: This city is a lot more than one company like Merck. Those who havent yet, should do a back-up check on it. They will find out that Darmstadt is certainly no Fürth, Erlangen or Leverkusen (just as Frankfurt is no Berlin, Munich or Hamburg)
Darmstadt's importance is not enhaced by its proximity to the city of Frankfurt, but to Frankfurt airport, Germany's biggest airport, which is also the main reason Frankfurt is important at all.
Darmstadt has a very high commuter-rate. Commuter trains from Frankfurt to Darmstadt are completely full in the morning, and in the other direction too in the afternoon.

And now we come to an important point:
Darmstadt is indeed Germany's silicon valley, and it keeps growing.
So there are a lot of scientists and other people from the sector coming to Darmstadt. These people are a major group of regular "ICE users"!
So its them creating a high demand for an ICE stop in Darmstadt, and not local politicians with a "me too" mentality.

The visitors demand from Darmstadt's politicians to get them an ICE stop!
And the population of Darmstadt puts pressure on them to meet their wishes, because they fear the development of their city might come to an end, if they arent attractive enough.

That has exactly been the case in DA. The mayor of Darmstadt didnt even really want to fight for an ICE stop. In the ICE discussion the mayor was revealed as incompetent and too small for fighting with a big guy like DB. This whole debate really screwed the guy.

-----

Darmstadt is not the city it was 50 years ago, when it was the Hinterland of Frankfurt.
And now the question is, what do we do with these cities?
DB is lucky that there is only one of them so far.
Leverkusen, Fürth or Erlangen will never become ICE cities, unless there is dramatic develeopment yet to come there.
I think we shouldnt worry about cities getting ICE's too easily, the "Messlatte" is high enough.
So if Darmstadt is able to overcome this Messlatte, then good on them!

It should be said that DB was at least as sceptical as you guys about Darmstadt, but they could be won over (not forced).
And I think this should be enough to convince you guys as well.

In future about 1/3 of the passing ICE's will stop in Darmstadt.
DB has already made its decision, and it becomes obvious that they have made a reasonable and wise decision.
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