daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old December 7th, 2010, 11:15 PM   #361
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by maniei View Post
I dont want to drag the discussion from general talk about German HSR to the city of Darmstadt, but I think Darmstadt serves as a very good object for having a fundamental discussion - when does a city deserve to be an ICE stop?

...

They will find out that Darmstadt is certainly no Fürth, Erlangen or Leverkusen (just as Frankfurt is no Berlin, Munich or Hamburg)
Darmstadt's importance is not enhaced by its proximity to the city of Frankfurt, but to Frankfurt airport, Germany's biggest airport, which is also the main reason Frankfurt is important at all.

...

Darmstadt is not the city it was 50 years ago, when it was the Hinterland of Frankfurt.
And now the question is, what do we do with these cities?
DB is lucky that there is only one of them so far.
Leverkusen, Fürth or Erlangen will never become ICE cities, unless there is dramatic develeopment yet to come there.
I think we shouldnt worry about cities getting ICE's too easily, the "Messlatte" is high enough.
So if Darmstadt is able to overcome this Messlatte, then good on them!

...

And I think this should be enough to convince you guys as well.
I am absolutely UNconvinced. In fact, you DO "want to drag the discussion from general talk about German HSR to the city of Darmstadt."

Today, Frankfurt IS Hamburg, Berlin, and Munich. Basically, Munich and Frankfurt are the post-WWII Hamburg and Berlin. I have not heard that SFO or SJU have their names been changed to Silicon Valley International Airport. Using your logic, neither is Heidelberg "the city it was 50 years ago." 50 years ago, Cologne was not the home of the German Aerospace Center.

The developments of FRA owe to the prosperity of the Rhine/Main region with Frankfurt, the city, as the hub of it. FRA was not massively developed with Darmstadt as the epicenter back in the 1960s.

Please do not dramatize/exaggerate the "development" of Darmstadt, the "development" of Darmstadt is no match of developments in Hamburg, Berlin and Frankfurt. Frankfurt is a global financial and banking center and the trade fair capital of Germany today, something it was not 50 years ago. Actually, many IT specialists "from Darmstadt" find jobs in the IT departments of the banks or IT firms that service the banks in Frankfurt.

Do first-tier cities worry that trains, planes, highways, etc. will ever bypass them under normal circumstances in the medium term? No, naturally. Back to square one, "Darmstadt´s "importance" is enhanced by its proximity to Frankfurt rather than Frankfurt´s importance is enhanced by its proximity to Darmstadt."

I am waiting the day when Financial Times, Economist, etc. talk about Darmstadt day and night, but I am quite certain that I will wait decades if not longer for that. Good luck with the struggling Darmstadt Opera becoming the Metropolitan Opera of the 22nd century. Naturally, I am all for DB adding more S-Bahn, RB, RE, IRE, IC services to and from Darmstadt.

Last edited by aab7772003; December 8th, 2010 at 01:34 AM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old December 8th, 2010, 12:12 AM   #362
maniei
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 101
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
I am absolutely UNconvinced. In fact, you DO "drag the discussion from general talk about German HSR to the city of Darmstadt."

Today, Frankfurt IS Hamburg, Berlin, and Munich. Basically, Munich and Frankfurt are the post WII Hamburg and Berlin. I have not heard that SFO or SJU have their names been changed to Silicon Valley International Airport. Using your logic, neither is Heidelberg "the city it was 50 years ago." 50 years ago, Cologne was not the home of the German Aerospace Center.

The developments of FRA owe to the prosperity of the Rhine/Main region with Frankfurt, the city, as the hub of it. FRA was not massively developed with Darmstadt as the epicenter back in the 1960s.

Please do not dramatize/exaggerate the "development" of Darmstadt, the "development" of Darmstadt is no match of developments in Hamburg, Berlin and Frankfurt. Frankfurt is a global financial and banking center and the trade fair capital of Germany today, something it was not 50 years ago. Actually, many IT specialists "from Darmstadt" find jobs in the IT departments of the banks or IT firms that service the banks in Frankfurt.

Do first-tier cities every worry that trains, planes, highways, etc. will ever bypass them under normal circumstances? Back to square one, Darmstadt´s "importance" is enhanced by its proximity to Frankfurt rather than Frankfurt´s importance is enhanced by its proximity to Darmstadt.

I am waiting the day when Financial Times, Economist, etc. talk about Darmstadt day and night, but I am quite certain that such day will not arrive in my life time. Good luck with the struggling Darmstadt Opera becoming the Metropolitan Opera of the 22nd century. Naturally, I am all for DB adding more S-Bahn, RB, RE, IRE, IC services to and from Darmstadt.
Its really unfortunate that you are not convinced.
Maybe you should have a talk with the experts of DB and ask them how they were convinced.

Its also unfortunate that you did not understand what I said in my previous post.
I certainly didnt try to portray Darmstadt as equal to Frankfurt.

Frankfurt is a 1st tier city and Da a 2nd tier.

What I was trying to drag the discussion to was the question: what should be done with relatively important 2nd tier cities?

We shouldnt be like: these cities have been 1st tier cities already a 100 years ago, the rest is hinterland and it will always stay as it is.

In the end of the day we all live in the same country, Germany, and we are all interested in its positive development.

We have Darmstadt that has behaved well and come a long way becoming a contributer to Germany's fortune.
Among other things they have been bringing in patents left and right.

Now we can help them develop further and award their past accomplishments with an ICE stop, or put a stop to their development.

How will we decide?
How will DB, the server of German economy, decide?

This question was already answered by DB. They gave an understandable answer. Enough for me to settle with this subject.

Last edited by maniei; December 8th, 2010 at 12:17 AM.
maniei no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2010, 01:08 AM   #363
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by maniei View Post
Its really unfortunate that you are not convinced.
Maybe you should have a talk with the experts of DB and ask them how they were convinced.

Its also unfortunate that you did not understand what I said in my previous post.
I certainly didnt try to portray Darmstadt as equal to Frankfurt.

Frankfurt is a 1st tier city and Da a 2nd tier.

What I was trying to drag the discussion to was the question: what should be done with relatively important 2nd tier cities?

We shouldnt be like: these cities have been 1st tier cities already a 100 years ago, the rest is hinterland and it will always stay as it is.

In the end of the day we all live in the same country, Germany, and we are all interested in its positive development.

We have Darmstadt that has behaved well and come a long way becoming a contributer to Germany's fortune.
Among other things they have been bringing in patents left and right.

Now we can help them develop further and award their past accomplishments with an ICE stop, or put a stop to their development.

How will we decide?
How will DB, the server of German economy, decide?

This question was already answered by DB. They gave an understandable answer. Enough for me to settle with this subject.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maniei View Post
...
Darmstadt's importance is not enhaced by its proximity to the city of Frankfurt, but to Frankfurt airport, Germany's biggest airport, which is also the main reason Frankfurt is important at all.
...
Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
...
Naturally, I am all for DB adding more S-Bahn, RB, RE, IRE, IC services to and from Darmstadt.

You basically launched right into this thread to hard sell Darmstadt. It is very fortunate that I can see beyond the city promotion presentation. I keep hearing that there is not enough money for everything on Germany´s rail development wish list AND everywhere in Germany should deserve just as many rail services. We all live in the same country indeed, but do villages, towns and cities offer just as much as the first-tier cities do and are they willing to pay for EVERYTHING first-tier cities have? Again, NO, naturally. Please do not equate subsidized economic stimulus in various formats with obstacles to sustainable economic development.

Someone from Darmstadt worked out a deal with the "experts" at DB rather than the DB "experts" being "convinced." DB, LH, etc. are the lifelines of the German economy; they are around to promote the overall German economy rather than rescuing and securing individual cities´ future.

ICE services are not for every town. ICE services on the dedicated 300 km/h HSR tracks should be exclusively built with the needs of the first-tier cities in mind.

Last edited by aab7772003; December 8th, 2010 at 06:23 AM.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2010, 01:16 AM   #364
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

Quote:
Originally Posted by rheintram View Post
What I don't get is why Germany is so reluctant to upgrade the (or even build a new) Munich - Rosenheim - Kufstein line. After all this is part of TEN corridor 1. In Austria the Neue Unterinntalbahn which allows for up to 250km/h will be opened in 2012 (four tracks). On the German side we still have a twin-tracked line with a maxspeed of 140 km/h.
I guess the general idea is to upgrate Munich-Mühldorf-Freilassing and hence separating the traffic to Brenner from that to Salzburg in order to create more capacities (and a emergency case backbone line for both lines, nowadays they have to use diesel locos to pull trains via Mühldorf in case there's an incident on the main line). However, that will take a long time to become reality...
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2010, 09:20 AM   #365
pietje01
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 488
Likes (Received): 8

Quote:
Originally Posted by maniei View Post
It should be said that DB was at least as sceptical as you guys about Darmstadt, but they could be won over (not forced).
And I think this should be enough to convince you guys as well.

In future about 1/3 of the passing ICE's will stop in Darmstadt.
DB has already made its decision, and it becomes obvious that they have made a reasonable and wise decision.
Seems logical to me, SNCF is doing a similar thing by diverting some TGV's off the LGV to stop in intermediate cities that are not directly on an LGV, like Douai and Arras.

There's nothing wrong with some direct HST's alternating with slower ones that stop more frequently.
DB must do what earns them the most money, and if that means slower ICE's due to more stops then so be it.
pietje01 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2010, 10:31 AM   #366
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
You made it previously sound like that Switzerland has invented the concept and Germany simply could not master the concept.
you really don't read, do you? I went explicitely on the record that the integral interval timetable was not a Swiss invention... Just that the Swiss have been making very good use of it.


Quote:
Again, do not forget the "tyranny of majority" phenomenon. You cannot have a blind faith in democracy as special interest groups, including those formed by angry, poor and ignorant mobs, can manipulate democracy to their absolute advantage at the maximum dertiment to anyone else.

The "democracy" you are talking about is the democracy we are striving for; the voice of everyone is heard so we will have a better tomorrow for everyone. However, even in Germany, democracy often exists as pork-barrel politics in reality.
Democracy is not perfect. But it beats the alternatives. Even when the result is you don't have the fastest trains.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2010, 10:36 AM   #367
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by aab7772003 View Post
There is also something called "synergy." Deutsche Bahn is building for the future while you pretty much call for short-term solutions. The project is part of the puzzle that will drastrically reduce the travel time between all first-tier cities in western Germany.
The thing is that there are a lot of projects that are part of the puzzle that will drastically reduce the travel time between all first-tier cities in Western Germany. And there is not enough money to implement all of them at once. So you need to prioritize them. Look at cost and benefits. And that can mean that certain projects get realized before certain others. Look at which projects achieve the most progress towards improving the puzzle, and undertake these first.

If the Mannheim bypass thus manages to move high enough up the list that it can be build now, than build it now, if not, postpone it (but do not undertake anything that would make it impossible to realise in the future either).
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2010, 01:16 PM   #368
kato2k8
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 525
Likes (Received): 106

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
(but do not undertake anything that would make it impossible to realise in the future either).
It is already impossible now, it would have to be made possible in the first place.

Making it possible would require among other things:
  • rezoning the entire stretch (requires approval not just by Mannheim, but surrounding area due to joint planning association)
  • including the bypass in regional planning (from state level down; requires state approval)
  • seizing the property from its current owners (requires approval by RP Karlsruhe)
  • finding a new place for the commercial high-voltage testing facility located on the land seized (not easy) (required, it's one of only two facilities of its caliber in Germany, and companies building transformer stations and such for DB use it)
  • braving the legal objections of 30,000 people living within 500m of the planned bypass (and Mannheim's citizens have sued DB before over such projects, see Pfingstbergtunnel)
kato2k8 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2010, 01:42 PM   #369
Dase
Registered User
 
Dase's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Moscow / Berlin
Posts: 514
Likes (Received): 61

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohne View Post
hans, passenger demand on the Berlin - München (with intermediate stops in Nürnberg, Erfurt and Halle or Leipzig) line justifies not more than an hourly train per direction.
I think you're wrong here. The line already now support one hourly train per direction, in the future all passengers going through Göttingen-Würzburg right now will use the line, as well, accompanied by additional growth caused by the shorter travel times. In the end that means that Berlin-Munich will easily support trains every 30 mins, and it has already been colporated that there will be a few different kinds of services, including one that only stops in Erfurt or might even go nonstop Berlin-Munich. Most trains will stop in Nuremberg, Erfurt and Leipzig (or Halle) however, which I consider not too bad as the cities are all around 200 km apart.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rohne View Post
as well as an additional acceleration of Berlin - Halle/Leipzig (currently 200km/h only, travel time of 1 hour between Berlin and the two cities might be possible then).
In 2006 there where nonstop trains Leipzig-Berlin Hbf which took 61 Minutes. The current traffic times of 70 Minutes are caused by time buffers as well as stops in either Südkreuz or Wittenberg. Bringing back the nonstop trains (most likely when the amount of trains is raised) will be sufficient, considering that speeding 200 on the A9 will take 1:45 center to center as well.
Dase no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old December 8th, 2010, 04:05 PM   #370
aab7772003
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 773
Likes (Received): 7

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
you really don't read, do you? I went explicitely on the record that the integral interval timetable was not a Swiss invention... Just that the Swiss have been making very good use of it.

Democracy is not perfect. But it beats the alternatives. Even when the result is you don't have the fastest trains.

Since when the Germans did not make very good use of the system timetable?

There are various forms of democratic models, I really do not need the kind of democracy that involves violent town hall meetings and the kind of referendum which even a mountain goat is invited to vote. I detest such democracy that makes trains go slower and then slower.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
The thing is that there are a lot of projects that are part of the puzzle that will drastically reduce the travel time between all first-tier cities in Western Germany. And there is not enough money to implement all of them at once. So you need to prioritize them. Look at cost and benefits. And that can mean that certain projects get realized before certain others. Look at which projects achieve the most progress towards improving the puzzle, and undertake these first.

If the Mannheim bypass thus manages to move high enough up the list that it can be build now, than build it now, if not, postpone it (but do not undertake anything that would make it impossible to realise in the future either).
I am very comfortable with the way DB "prioritizes" the projects now.
aab7772003 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 10th, 2013, 01:13 AM   #371
Gadiri
Registered User
 
Gadiri's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Paris-Agadir-Guelmim
Posts: 52,723
Likes (Received): 6979

New ICE by Boeing.


































http://www.airportal.hu/ap/viewtopic.php?f=26&t=11515
__________________


FBI Says 94% of Terrorist Attacks in the US Since 1980 Are by Non-Muslims



Deadeye Reloaded liked this post
Gadiri no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 11th, 2013, 10:53 PM   #372
Galactic
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 39
Likes (Received): 11

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gadiri View Post
New ICE by Boeing.
First Air France starts using Alstom rolling stock, now this. Well, the American mass transport mode of choice are private cars, so I guess this development is not that weird
Galactic no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2013, 01:37 AM   #373
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 31,964
Likes (Received): 15390

Hi.
It looks like the ICE keeps on having problems on the route Paris-Frankfurt.
Users along the line are starting to look for other options, at least on the French side, notably the users of the Forbach station.
Why is the ICE giving so many problems on this route?
437.001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2013, 09:53 AM   #374
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Hi.
It looks like the ICE keeps on having problems on the route Paris-Frankfurt.
Users along the line are starting to look for other options, at least on the French side, notably the users of the Forbach station.
Why is the ICE giving so many problems on this route?
There is only one ICE pair calling at Forbach, and one TGV pair. It's not an especially important place... (In fact, there should be no HST stops there at all. In stead SNCF should improve local trains, and better integrate them in the long distance network...)
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2013, 02:49 PM   #375
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,155
Likes (Received): 274

Quote:
Originally Posted by 437.001 View Post
Why is the ICE giving so many problems on this route?
It is not just the ICE3MF on this route, all ICE3 variants are not as reliable as DB had hoped for. They may have taken just a bit to much design risk with the BR403/406. The not yet in service BR407 doesn't seem to do much better either, which is weird because with the Velaro E, CN and RUS you would think al the extra experience would roll into the design of the Velaro D.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 26th, 2013, 06:43 PM   #376
Suburbanist
on the road
 
Suburbanist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: the rain capital of Europe
Posts: 27,525
Likes (Received): 21227

Several short questions

I have a bunch of short questions.

(1) When will the full Leipizig-Erfurt-Nürnberg line open for revenue service? How is construction going?

(2) Is there a project to link Frankfurt and Wüzburg with a faster rail link, which would speed connections from Frankfurt to both Berlin (via the Hannover-Fulda HSL) and also to München via Nürnberg?

(3) Are they plans to replace the use ICE-T with something better (= faster tracks)?

(4) There are two rail lines following the Rhein between Köln and Mainz, one on each bank of the river essentially. They look of similar profile from Google Maps. How does DB operate them? To they use one for lower trains, other for faster trains?
__________________
YIMBY - Yes, in my backyard!
Suburbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old March 26th, 2013, 08:09 PM   #377
K_
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 2,744
Likes (Received): 243

Quote:
Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
(1) When will the full Leipizig-Erfurt-Nürnberg line open for revenue service? How is construction going?
Construction seems to be going well. Currently it looks like it might be put in Service in December 2015.

Quote:
(2) Is there a project to link Frankfurt and Wüzburg with a faster rail link, which would speed connections from Frankfurt to both Berlin (via the Hannover-Fulda HSL) and also to München via Nürnberg?
There is the so called "Mottgers Spange". Won't be build before 2025, but there is already an website against it...
http://www.initiative-pro-spessart.de/

Quote:
(4) There are two rail lines following the Rhein between Köln and Mainz, one on each bank of the river essentially. They look of similar profile from Google Maps. How does DB operate them? To they use one for lower trains, other for faster trains?
The line on the left bank used to be an important main line in the German long distance network. All IC/EC trains from Köln to points south would use it. It has lost some of its importance since the opening of the Köln - Frankfurt HSL, and now also carries some freight.
The line on the right bank has always been the main freight line, but it also carries regional trains.
Both lines are quite scenic.
K_ no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 7th, 2013, 02:56 AM   #378
Nexis
Dark Wolf
 
Nexis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Along the Rails of North Jersey..
Posts: 15,684
Likes (Received): 17032

__________________
My FLICKR Page < 54,100+ Photos of Urban Renewal , Infrastructure , Food and Nature in the Northeastern US
Visit the Reorganized New York City Section
My Photography Website
Visit the New Jersey Section

Deadeye Reloaded, FM 2258 liked this post
Nexis no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old August 29th, 2013, 04:48 AM   #379
437.001
Sister Greed U
 
437.001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: on the road (Spain)
Posts: 31,964
Likes (Received): 15390

New international TGV service between France and Germany:

Quote:
TGV Rhine-Rhône – new TGV Paris-Freiburg high speed link

From 26 August 2013, SNCF will operate a new international service linking Paris to Freiburg im Breisgau (Germany).

The new Paris-Freiburg route will mark the expansion of the TGV Rhine-Rhône service to European destinations.

The present Paris-Mulhouse daily return journey will thus be extended to Freiburg im Breisgau from 26 August 2013. This new route has been open to reservations since 16 July and complements the connecting TGV/TER service which has operated since the reopening of the Mulhouse-Mulheim line in December 2012.

http://www.uic.org/com/article/franc...thickbox_enews
__________________
&&& abcde PMR en Cat ImpTgn Cat2017
Everybody got a job to lose (A.E, Vision Thing, WEA, 1990)

Deadeye Reloaded liked this post
437.001 no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old February 4th, 2014, 01:48 PM   #380
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,885
Likes (Received): 296

The high speed line Erfurt-Leipzig is taking shape, slowly but steadily.


Strecke Richtung Leipzig par flierfy, bei ipernity



Strecke Richtung Erfurt par flierfy, bei ipernity



Schnellfahrgleis par flierfy, bei ipernity
__________________
Rippachtal.de

SAS 16 liked this post
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
ice

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium