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Old March 6th, 2014, 06:58 PM   #441
flierfy
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Originally Posted by K_ View Post
Sorry, but you are mistaken.

You will find more step free access to trains in Switzerland than in most countries. Why would that be? All rolling stock currently on order has step free access.

If you make platforms higher it becomes harder to have step free access in to double deck trains. It makes a lot of sense to do the following:
- Build double deck trains with the lower level as low as possible.
- Match platform level to this floor level.
- Match floor level of regional single deck rolling stocktto this level.

The constraining factor here is the need to have step free access to double deck trains, and at the same time maximizing interior space. That is easier done with 55cm then with 76 cm. raising the lower floor of an double deck carriage to 76cm isn't even an option in Switzerland.
What you seem to forget is that double deck trains are not the be-all and the end-all of rolling stocks. In fact double deck trains are rather impractical. And that is the main reason why single deck trains constitute the vast majority of the existing rolling stock.

The platform heights which allow step-free trains ranges from 76 cm upwards. Double decker with its staircases don't match this criteria. Neither do single-deck trains with ultra-low floor levels. They too have steps in any form.
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Old March 7th, 2014, 01:54 AM   #442
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Belgian double decker trains have 2 or 3 (depending on the height of the platform. An extra steps always flips out when the train halts but sometimes serves only to close the gap between the train and the platform or when the platform is lower as an extra step) steps to reach the intermediate level and 1 to 3 doors(depending on the length) that open on a lower level for allowing wheelchairs and bikes on the train.

The intermediate level:



From left to right:

intermediate level, lower level, intermediate level.

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Old March 7th, 2014, 01:21 PM   #443
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What you seem to forget is that double deck trains are not the be-all and the end-all of rolling stocks. In fact double deck trains are rather impractical. And that is the main reason why single deck trains constitute the vast majority of the existing rolling stock.
In quite a few countries double deckers form the majority of the stock currently on order. SNCF is only ordering double deck TGVs. SBB is mostly buying double deck trains. So is NMBS and NS.

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The platform heights which allow step-free trains ranges from 76 cm upwards. Double decker with its staircases don't match this criteria. Neither do single-deck trains with ultra-low floor levels. They too have steps in any form.
Can you give me an example of a train that is both step-free access, and no interior steps with a floor level of 76 cm, suitable for long distance and high speed operation?

Again, SBB standardizes on 55cm, and they are well on their way of becoming the first operator in Europe offering step free access to all their trains.
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Old March 8th, 2014, 02:42 PM   #444
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In quite a few countries double deckers form the majority of the stock currently on order. SNCF is only ordering double deck TGVs. SBB is mostly buying double deck trains. So is NMBS and NS.
And there other countries refrain from double deck trains altogether. All this doesn't make a difference for Germany where double deck trains account for a rather small share of the overall rolling stock and are therefore not normative.

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Can you give me an example of a train that is both step-free access, and no interior steps with a floor level of 76 cm, suitable for long distance and high speed operation?
There is no such trainset. The only high-speed trains which are entirely step-free match a platform height of 120 cm. Hence my aim to raise high-speed platforms to this height.

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Again, SBB standardizes on 55cm, and they are well on their way of becoming the first operator in Europe offering step free access to all their trains.
They won't be the first. The SBB are still a long way off from offering step-free access to all trains while other railways have already achieved this goal.
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Old March 8th, 2014, 07:50 PM   #445
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And there other countries refrain from double deck trains altogether. All this doesn't make a difference for Germany where double deck trains account for a rather small share of the overall rolling stock and are therefore not normative.
In Germany double deck trains are also inreasing their. In many areas the option not to use double deckers just isn't there.

Quote:
There is no such trainset. The only high-speed trains which are entirely step-free match a platform height of 120 cm. Hence my aim to raise high-speed platforms to this height.
That is not going to happen. Hence my suggestion to adopt a compromise that actually stands a chance of being implemented in the real world.
When you remove real world constraints a perfect solution can indeed be dreamed up...

Quote:
They won't be the first. The SBB are still a long way off from offering step-free access to all trains while other railways have already achieved this goal.
Which other railways already offer step free access on heir entire network?

Last edited by K_; March 9th, 2014 at 10:20 PM.
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Old March 8th, 2014, 08:21 PM   #446
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In Germany double deck trains are also inreasing their. In many areas the option not to use double deckers just isn't there.
No, they actually aren't. There are at least as many lines which have been converted from double-deck to single-floor trains in recent years as the other way around.

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That is not going to happen. Hence my suggestion to adopt a compromise that actually stands a chance of being implemented in the real world.
When you remove real world constraints a perfect solution can indeed be dreamed up...
It's not a dream. 120 cm high platforms are a reality already. All we have to do, is to emulate the stringency of the best high-speed networks in this world where such platform heights have been implemented.

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Which other railways already offer step free access on heir entire network?
S-Bahn Berlin for instance is already step-free. There are probably even more of which I'm not aware of right now.
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Old March 8th, 2014, 11:24 PM   #447
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Actually, Talgo HS trains have 760 mm floor.
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Old March 9th, 2014, 10:19 PM   #448
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It's not a dream. 120 cm high platforms are a reality already.
I'm sorry, but in Germany it's not even an option.

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S-Bahn Berlin for instance is already step-free. There are probably even more of which I'm not aware of right now.
Why then does S-Bahn Berlin have wheelchair ramps at all their stations?

One I am aware of is the RBS in Bern. There someone in a wheelchair can travel completely unassisted. And the way things are going this will be the case for the SBB in the future as well.
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Old March 10th, 2014, 10:01 AM   #449
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Which other railways already offer step free access on heir entire network?
Allmost all Japanese railway companies (which for the record, use 1100mm platforms on the narrow gauge network and 1250mm platforms on the Shinkansen network. On both networks double deck trains are used).
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Old March 10th, 2014, 12:12 PM   #450
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And there other countries refrain from double deck trains altogether. All this doesn't make a difference for Germany where double deck trains account for a rather small share of the overall rolling stock and are therefore not normative.
According to wikipedia ("Bauartunterschiede von Doppelstockwagen"), more than 2121 double deck carriages have been built. By contrast, only 1464 high speed carriages are in use. Therefore, high speed trains are not normative.

If we add to this that double deckers have 40% more passengers and, say, 100% more stops than high speed trains, we see that 4 times more passengers enter and exit double deckers than high speed trains. That platform height should adapt to that majority, not the minority in high speed trains.

Non high speed trains can be adapted to 55 cm; FLIRTs can do 200 km/h with 55 cm entrances and no steps between cars. Additionally, TALGO high speed trains are offered with 55 cm entrances and no interior steps if one insists, but HST stops are so rare that a wheelchair lift is a valid option.

Last edited by alphorn; March 10th, 2014 at 12:19 PM.
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Old March 10th, 2014, 12:35 PM   #451
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Non high speed trains can be adapted to 55 cm; FLIRTs can do 200 km/h with 55 cm entrances and no steps between cars.
Which Flirt model has that?
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Old March 10th, 2014, 02:23 PM   #452
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Which Flirt model has that?
I asume he means Kiss and not Flirt.
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Old March 10th, 2014, 06:03 PM   #453
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Which Flirt model has that?
All the Flirt sets built for SBB offer step free access at 55 cm. but these don't run at 200kph. The NSB Flirt sets do 200 kph, but I don't know their floor height.
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Old March 11th, 2014, 01:01 AM   #454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K_ View Post
I'm sorry, but in Germany it's not even an option.
Why shouldn't it be an option? It would solve the problem once and for all.

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Why then does S-Bahn Berlin have wheelchair ramps at all their stations?
I don't know what you mean by wheelchair ramp. But there are certainly no mobile device which could bridge a step or gap between platform and train at S-Bahn platforms in Berlin as there are virtually no steps or gaps. You seem to confuse this with mainline platforms in Berlin and elsewhere in Germany.
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Old March 11th, 2014, 02:02 AM   #455
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Originally Posted by alphorn View Post
According to wikipedia ("Bauartunterschiede von Doppelstockwagen"), more than 2121 double deck carriages have been built. By contrast, only 1464 high speed carriages are in use. Therefore, high speed trains are not normative.

If we add to this that double deckers have 40% more passengers and, say, 100% more stops than high speed trains, we see that 4 times more passengers enter and exit double deckers than high speed trains. That platform height should adapt to that majority, not the minority in high speed trains.
This is a rather bizarre calculation. Not only do you compare the number of double carriages built with those high-speed carriages in use. You also don't mention the vast numbers of single-floor carriages which are in use for local and regional services. So if you're looking for majority platform height you may consider the ~5'000 S-Bahn carriages in use which match 96 cm high platforms.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alphorn View Post
Non high speed trains can be adapted to 55 cm; FLIRTs can do 200 km/h with 55 cm entrances and no steps between cars. Additionally, TALGO high speed trains are offered with 55 cm entrances and no interior steps if one insists, but HST stops are so rare that a wheelchair lift is a valid option.
You are mistaken if you think one could adapt every none high-speed train to 55 cm high platforms. S-Bahn services in our biggest cities require 96 cm high platform as the large number of passenger getting off and on the trains make 3 door per carriage a necessity. Furthermore is a step-free floor is highly recommendable for these crowded services. Trainset which 55 cm high entrances don't provide step-free floor through-out the entire trains.
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Old March 11th, 2014, 09:59 AM   #456
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This actually makes me wonder why the EU didn't also standardise 96cm platforms, alongside the 55cm and 76cm. For instance the Netherlands would probably have picked 96cm (up from the 84cm they used to have) if it was an option.
And yes, I do realise that creating a train that can cope with all platform heights between 55cm and 96cm would be difficult (think of a Thalys from Amsterdam to Paris), but not impossible. In the USA the platform height spread is even bigger, yet they manage. It's only a problem with international traffic.
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Old March 12th, 2014, 11:46 AM   #457
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This is a rather bizarre calculation. Not only do you compare the number of double carriages built with those high-speed carriages in use. You also don't mention the vast numbers of single-floor carriages which are in use for local and regional services. So if you're looking for majority platform height you may consider the ~5'000 S-Bahn carriages in use which match 96 cm high platforms.
The estimate of double deckers in use is conservative. I only counted double deckers built in the last 40 years, which is a normal carriage lifetime. Additionally, many types had no numbers with them so I could not count them. The local/regional single deckers I did not need to count because they can be adapted to both 55 cm and 120 cm, as tons of 55 cm regional trains in Switzerland prove. Also, most S-Bahn carriages run on separate networks (Berlin, Hamburg) so they are irrelevant to the platform height outside.

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You are mistaken if you think one could adapt every none high-speed train to 55 cm high platforms. S-Bahn services in our biggest cities require 96 cm high platform as the large number of passenger getting off and on the trains make 3 door per carriage a necessity. Furthermore is a step-free floor is highly recommendable for these crowded services. Trainset which 55 cm high entrances don't provide step-free floor through-out the entire trains.
FLIRTs with 55 cm floors are step free (except at the ends); they only have small ramps. However that's much less important that step-free entrance since most people don't change carriages. As for three doors per side with low floor: I don't think that's a big problem, the doors would just be slightly unevenly spaced. Such minor problems are less important than the big problem of non wheelchair accessible double deckers.
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Old March 17th, 2014, 12:44 AM   #458
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The estimate of double deckers in use is conservative. I only counted double deckers built in the last 40 years, which is a normal carriage lifetime. Additionally, many types had no numbers with them so I could not count them. The local/regional single deckers I did not need to count because they can be adapted to both 55 cm and 120 cm, as tons of 55 cm regional trains in Switzerland prove. Also, most S-Bahn carriages run on separate networks (Berlin, Hamburg) so they are irrelevant to the platform height outside.
S-Bahn networks are not nearly as segregated as they should be. In fact the detachment of the networks in Hamburg and Berlin has already gone or is threatened to be lifted. Other networks have never even achieve this sort of seperation. Which leaves them with to deal with mainline platforms. The only platform height allowed by current legislation for mainlines that is anywhere near 96 cm is 76 cm. Anything below this level is simply unworkable.

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FLIRTs with 55 cm floors are step free (except at the ends); they only have small ramps. However that's much less important that step-free entrance since most people don't change carriages. As for three doors per side with low floor: I don't think that's a big problem, the doors would just be slightly unevenly spaced. Such minor problems are less important than the big problem of non wheelchair accessible double deckers.
You seem to underestimate the need for an uninterupted passenger exchange. Due to high frequency of service in trunk routes trains halt for 60 seconds and no longer. To exchange passengers in this time one requires evenly spaced doors in great numbers as well as an entirely step-free floor. Something that trains at 55 cm floor height don't provide. People are cramped in S-Bahn services too often as that one could afford steps which can't be seen in crowded trains.
A Flirt trainset is unsuited to serve as S-Bahn or commuting service to big cities in Germany. You may get away with such trains in rural Switzerland. It is a different situation in large conurbation in Germany and elsewhere in Europe, however.
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Old March 17th, 2014, 10:05 AM   #459
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A Flirt trainset is unsuited to serve as S-Bahn or commuting service to big cities in Germany.
I wouldn't go as far as unsuited, less suited would be a better qualification. Just like double decker trains are also less suited for the same purpose, for exactly the same reasons you're stating.

They do use the Talent2 with 600mm low floors between Cottbus and Leipzig for an S-Bahn like service. Also I saw the same Talent2 in a grey S-Bahn livery with also seems to have those 600mm floors. So they do exist, because sometimes you don't have a choice when you need to share platforms between all services.
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Old March 17th, 2014, 12:25 PM   #460
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A Flirt trainset is unsuited to serve as S-Bahn or commuting service to big cities in Germany. You may get away with such trains in rural Switzerland. It is a different situation in large conurbation in Germany and elsewhere in Europe, however.
In rural Switzerland the standard dwell time at stations is 50 seconds. It appears that SBB gets away with using Flirts with 55cm floor heights for these services just fine. In fact, Flirts have allowed speeding up quite few services.
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