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Old December 24th, 2014, 11:18 AM   #521
Baron Hirsch
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
It somehow seems very un-German to have these partially completed HSR lines around the country.
It is unfortunately very German. German governments of all kinds have always seen it as their priority to promote car sales, as this is believed to be the motor of the German economy. This includes the extension of Autobahns, while there is comparetively little invested into rails (in comparison to neighboring Switzerland and Austria and other countries with relatively high GDP). It is telling that the highway through Thuringia is long built while Munich-Berlin 200/300 kmh line will only be completed 2-3 years from now, and that was part of a priority list to connect Eastern Germany to the West after 1990.
Also DB is undecided whether to prioritize cheaper upgrades to 200 kmh or new HSR for 250/300, leading to the weird mix at present.
Plus some HSR lines/upgrades have been stalled for years due to local protests.
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Old December 24th, 2014, 01:05 PM   #522
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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Also, how fast can an ICE train accelerate to ~300km/h?
High speed acceleration is a combination of power and aerodynamics. For lack of comparative numbers on aerodynamics the power to weight ratio would be a good comparison:
  • ICE3 (BR407): 17,6 kW/t
  • ICE3 (BR406): 18,2 kW/t
  • ICE3 (BR403): 19,6 kW/t
  • N700 (any 16 car variant): 23,9 kW/t
  • TGV-POS or 2N2: 25,0 kW/t

The N700 was specially designed for quick acceleration, not for a high top speed, so it will probably be the quickest to accelerate of the 5 listed. The TGV would not be far behind though. The ICEs will be slower, because they are slightly heavier and less powerful.
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Old December 24th, 2014, 04:11 PM   #523
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Old December 24th, 2014, 11:18 PM   #524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
It is unfortunately very German. German governments of all kinds have always seen it as their priority to promote car sales, as this is believed to be the motor of the German economy. This includes the extension of Autobahns, while there is comparetively little invested into rails (in comparison to neighboring Switzerland and Austria and other countries with relatively high GDP). It is telling that the highway through Thuringia is long built while Munich-Berlin 200/300 kmh line will only be completed 2-3 years from now, and that was part of a priority list to connect Eastern Germany to the West after 1990.
Also DB is undecided whether to prioritize cheaper upgrades to 200 kmh or new HSR for 250/300, leading to the weird mix at present.
Plus some HSR lines/upgrades have been stalled for years due to local protests.
To be fair Switzerland and Austria(until recently) don't have HSR. As for other countries, only few countries like France and Spain have HSR lines all over their countries.
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Old December 25th, 2014, 12:09 AM   #525
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GERMANY | High Speed Rail

Yes, acceleration is more important to Japan than top speed due to close station spacing. Though the n700 isn't exactly a slouch on its top speed. It's mostly limited by Japan's mountainous terrain, 2500m track radius and noise pollution laws.

The n700i (export variant) is rated for 330km/h operational speed.

I'd love to see a side by side real world example of these trains. It would be interesting if you took the Japanese system and plopped it into Europe and vice versa. How would local systems fare against one another.t

Last edited by bluemeansgo; December 25th, 2014 at 12:27 AM.
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Old December 25th, 2014, 12:50 AM   #526
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
High speed acceleration is a combination of power and aerodynamics. For lack of comparative numbers on aerodynamics the power to weight ratio would be a good comparison:
  • ICE3 (BR407): 17,6 kW/t
  • ICE3 (BR406): 18,2 kW/t
  • ICE3 (BR403): 19,6 kW/t
  • N700 (any 16 car variant): 23,9 kW/t
  • TGV-POS or 2N2: 25,0 kW/t

The N700 was specially designed for quick acceleration, not for a high top speed, so it will probably be the quickest to accelerate of the 5 listed. The TGV would not be far behind though. The ICEs will be slower, because they are slightly heavier and less powerful.
I don't know if this is typical, but this is TGV speed info I have found:


The track goes uphill at 4 minutes... but its downhill before that point. I'm guessing around 4:30 to get to 270km/h?

Here's a Japanese E6 accelerating to 300km/h in 4:30 (3:45 to 270km/h)


Apparently it's capable of 270km/h in 180s (3 minutes) but in practice they don't push them as hard as that.
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Old December 25th, 2014, 01:44 PM   #527
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Apparently it's capable of 270km/h in 180s (3 minutes) but in practice they don't push them as hard as that.
That equates to an average acceleration of 0,42 m/s², which isn't particularly high but in line with high speed services all over the world.
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Old December 25th, 2014, 05:11 PM   #528
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To be fair Switzerland and Austria(until recently) don't have HSR. As for other countries, only few countries like France and Spain have HSR lines all over their countries.
He was talking about the general attitude of the government. They rather spend the money on stupid Autobahn enlargements, while almost completely disregarding the railway. I mean just look at those stats:

http://www.allianz-pro-schiene.de/in...infrastruktur/
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Old December 25th, 2014, 07:33 PM   #529
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Interesting. It seems other countries has spend more money on motorway expansion than trains in past 10+ years.

Last edited by LtBk; December 25th, 2014 at 07:43 PM.
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Old December 25th, 2014, 08:12 PM   #530
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GERMANY | High Speed Rail

Quote:
Originally Posted by flierfy View Post
That equates to an average acceleration of 0,42 m/s², which isn't particularly high but in line with high speed services all over the world.

It didn't make sense to me why JR Central always touts its acceleration so I dug deeper and found out I was mistaken, sorry!. It is 180s to its max speed (300km/h). Its max speed is limited to 270 on the Tokaido line. In any case, I found an article which states acceleration as 2.6km/h/s (0.72m/s²). http://www.railway-technology.com/pr...00-shinkansen/

What's acceleration like for ICE and TGV-POS? What about AGV?

Given that German trains need to speed up and down on quite a few lines would it be a good idea to import or buy tech from Japan to improve performance?
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Old December 25th, 2014, 08:21 PM   #531
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They rather spend the money on stupid Autobahn enlargements, while almost completely disregarding the railway. I mean just look at those stats:
http://www.allianz-pro-schiene.de/in...infrastruktur/
Yes, statistics. Closing lines is a matter of what amount of kilometers you come from.

I see no stupidity in autobahn enlargements as Germany lacks behind to other european countries in this category.

At the moment the Stuttgart 21 project is maybe advanced and ambitious, maybe discussable but it´s the most expensive railway-project in Germany.
There should be more investments in rail in Germany, but they would not lead to more high-speed. It´s more about closing gaps of single-tracked parts of lines, signalling, etc.

I remember an article saying, that the average commercial speed of British Rail IC is not much slower than in the german ICE-system. This is mainly because britains have several trains per hour in one direction, whereas only few stop at all stations. The skip-stop-system maybe would make german ICE-system faster. In fact, the numbers of real new HSR-lines is limited to those:

1) HSR Hannover-Hamburg
2) Frankfurt-Mannheim
3) Leipzig-Nürnberg (u/c)

What´s missing is a line in central Germany between Frankfurt-Fulda-Erfurt and Frankfurt-Würzburg. This would relieve existing infrastructure and nearly all ICE-lines would benefit from this. You have to see, that Germany is a polycentric country, where population is spread around several major and minor important cities. So imho the british system with some HSR-lines and other conventional tracks up to 200 km/h would be more sufficient than any french or japanese style system.

Kind regards

Last edited by tunnel owl; December 25th, 2014 at 08:33 PM.
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Old December 26th, 2014, 01:33 AM   #532
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Germany's Autobahn network is many things but certainly not underdeveloped. And even such white whale projects like Stuttgart 21 don't change the fact that Germany pours way too little money into its rail network. This is not my personal opinion, but DB themselves are talking about a 30 billion investment gap that is desperately needed and Bahn Chief Grube lacks funds to hire urgently needed staff. Hell Mainz Hbf couldn't be reached with long distance trains last year due to a lack of personnel in the signalbox.
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Old December 26th, 2014, 09:52 PM   #533
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Germany's Autobahn network is many things but certainly not underdeveloped.
As this is maybe OT for railways, to keep it short. Compare average daily traffic on german autobahns with those of other countries. You willl find out, that those stretches have to be 2X3 lanes instead of the classic 2x2 layout. This is the main task for german motorways in future, not the expansion of the network itself.

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Old December 26th, 2014, 10:31 PM   #534
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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
EDIT:
Looks like the reason that it takes so long as that this isn't a common route in Germany. Sorry... this was coming from my non-German-resident viewpoint thinking that since these are two places that tourists want to visit (Berlin and Munich) that there must be a fast direct line between them. A better comparison appears to be the Munich - Frankfurt - Dusseldorf corridor. Currently, the fastest service I could find does this trip in ~300 minutes (5 hr) and 7 stops. It's also ~600km long depending on routing.
You should never forget two things about Germany:
- It has a very different structure than eg. France or Spain. In France the main purpose of the railroad is to bring people to Paris. In Germany the main purpose is to bring people to the nearest major town.
- It's spatial structure has changed drastically the last decades. Don't underestimate the effects of the Reunion, which still hasn't been digested completely. A united Germany would never have build the Wurzburg - Hanover main line, but West Germany needed it, as the division completely changed the traffic flows in the network.

I travel on the Basel - Frankfurt - Köln corridor quite regularly. I notice it every time that most people only travel a few stops on those ICE services. Which is why it doesn't make much sense to build lines bypassing the cities (like in France) and trying investing in the existing network often serves the customers better.
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Old December 27th, 2014, 02:56 AM   #535
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Interesting. But is it perhaps that way because of the rail network? If the rail network isn't competitive with the autobahn network why would people use it for longer distances. I agree that Germany is more decentralized but that could actually be a strength. Japan has numerous population centres from Tokyo to Fukuoka which makes HSR useful. I'm sure people travel between cities or they would do so more often if it was easy. Is there a lot of intra-flights between the big cities?
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Old December 27th, 2014, 03:05 AM   #536
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Interesting. But is it perhaps that way because of the rail network? If the rail network isn't competitive with the autobahn network why would people use it for longer distances. I agree that Germany is more decentralized but that could actually be a strength. Japan has numerous population centres from Tokyo to Fukuoka which makes HSR useful. I'm sure people travel between cities or they would do so more often if it was easy. Is there a lot of intra-flights between the big cities?
I think it not a binary situation. Long-distance ICEs have significant traffic, but so do Autobahnen.
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Old December 27th, 2014, 03:50 AM   #537
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Interesting. But is it perhaps that way because of the rail network? If the rail network isn't competitive with the autobahn network why would people use it for longer distances. I agree that Germany is more decentralized but that could actually be a strength. Japan has numerous population centres from Tokyo to Fukuoka which makes HSR useful. I'm sure people travel between cities or they would do so more often if it was easy. Is there a lot of intra-flights between the big cities?
if you look at the busiest routes from frankfurt airport you will note that most - if not all - of these could completely be done by train - provided a proper german HSR network:

1 Berlin (Tegel) 896.500
2 Hamburg 800.330
3 London (Heathrow) 731.000
4 Munic 541.600
5 Vienna 537.500
6 Paris 510.900

unfortunately db rather plans on cutting down high speed to under 250km/h and maybe even stop building HS-lines at all (frankfurt-mannheim and hannover-hamburg are under reconsideration..). and bypasses are prevented by regional politicians.

also the question for K_ which line he would have build instead of Hannover-Würzburg?
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Old December 27th, 2014, 10:44 AM   #538
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You forget one thing. A lot of people travel from Frankfurt to all the places you mentioned with connecting flights. So many people who start their flight from Vienna for example they don't stay Frankfurt but continue to Russia, the US , other European cities etc. The time cost of changing from plane to plane is more or less the same as of changing from plane to train and of course plane travel time remains much faster. Enough to counterbalance the benefit of getting on in the center that train brings (which is useful in a relatively compact city like Vienna, less so in a sprawling metropolis like Paris where travelling to the HSR stations still takes some time).

So, for many people travelling on these routes, HSR would bring little benefit if any. That's not to say that more HSR connections from and to Frankfurt wouldn't necessarily make sense, just that the air traffic to hubs like Frankfurt should be further analysed and not just taken like that.
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Old December 27th, 2014, 01:22 PM   #539
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Interesting. But is it perhaps that way because of the rail network? If the rail network isn't competitive with the autobahn network why would people use it for longer distances.
Well, this is correct. ICE is succesful, if it´s faster than car. So, the Berlin-Hamburg-ICE is about 1,5h, car-traffic is 3h. This is really enough to compete with. A worse thing is Berlin-Cologne, which is faster by car, if you take into account, that Cologne-Hbf. isn´t the final destination. Riding this ICE frequently I always wonder about the high passenger-numbers anyway. It seems DBAG has no Problems with less passengers in this relation.


Concerning your mentioned Berlin-Munich-route, this one is very important, not only for tourits. If HSR Berlin-Munich is ready in 2017, Berlin-Munich can be done in 4 to 4,5 h (depending on stops), which is 1 h less than car. Even better times between Berlin-Erfurt 1,75h/Berlin-Nürnberg 2,5h. And now think about air-travel between Munich and Berlin, once the BER would open some unknown day. This can create a rail-link then, leading to significant decrease of flight-passengers Berlin-MUC. This speaking as someone using this relation frequently.

So they speak about creating Sprinter-service between Berlin-Nürnberg-Munich, if it pays out. This would be in accordance with a more british-style high-speed. But it would be additional, it would not be possible to neglect the stops between.

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Old December 27th, 2014, 01:26 PM   #540
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Don't they have any Rhür area - Hannover upgrade plans?

I also think DB should introduce more Sprinter services (HS trains that call just at their endpoints).
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