daily menu » rate the banner | guess the city | one on oneforums map | privacy policy | DMCA | news magazine | posting guidelines

Go Back   SkyscraperCity > Infrastructure and Mobility Forums > Railways

Railways (Inter)national commuter and freight trains



Global Announcement

As a general reminder, please respect others and respect copyrights. Go here to familiarize yourself with our posting policy.


Reply

 
Thread Tools
Old January 13th, 2015, 06:48 PM   #561
flierfy
Registered User
 
flierfy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,885
Likes (Received): 296

Quote:
Originally Posted by bavarian urbanist View Post
I'd like to see Munich-Regensburg-Plzen-Praha and Munich-Innsbruck-Venezia. Eastern Germany already got enough new infrastructure, they should try to get on their feet on their own.
Don't worry, we are on our feet in droves already.
__________________
Rippachtal.de
flierfy no está en línea   Reply With Quote

Sponsored Links
Old January 14th, 2015, 10:00 AM   #562
bavarian urbanist
Verdens Beste
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Ratisbona
Posts: 523
Likes (Received): 649

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goy View Post
Guy, it is not realistic for while. Beacause of 2 reasons:

1 - Czech Republic have not enough money to build it without EU funds;

2 - Currently countries from Central Europe (Czech Republic, Hungary...) have anti-west and pro-russia gouvernments. They don't want it.

I think a line Berlin-Dresden is ideal for a while, when those countries become more favourable to West they can improve its connection with West countries.
Ah come on. Nobody in his full mind in central europe, which also includes Austria and Germany, btw. has a pro-russian government. There are actually already plans to build what I'd like, but as it is in the country of "we need to save every penny", it will probably not be built anytime soon(The Rgb-Praha-line) -> Donau-Moldau-Bahn, it's called.
__________________
There is no god, especially not Allah!
bavarian urbanist no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 24th, 2015, 08:36 PM   #563
Rohne
Schwarzkutte
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Franconofurd
Posts: 830
Likes (Received): 361

Berlin - Dresden or low travelled border crossing lines like those mentioned the last 10 postings are nothing to even try dreaming of, as long as not even Düsseldorf - Frankfurt - Stuttgart - München and Hamburg - Frankfurt - Basel are planned to be contiguous high speed rail corridors.
Rohne no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old January 26th, 2015, 03:13 PM   #564
thun
Registered User
 
thun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,829

Quote:
Originally Posted by oslogospelchoir View Post
Very much agree. There should be sufficient demand from Bayern into Praha and other nearby countries for robust HS network.
If we look at Munich-Praha: No, not at all. Afaik the only direct connection is the odd Alex which has destination coaches switched in Marktredwitz or somewhere only.
I guess that a decent connection Nuremberg - Plzen together with electrificaton of Regensburg - Hof makes more sense than only a HSL from Munich.
__________________
Folglich mein TagesTipp => Es genau so hinzunehmen wie ich es sagte. Notorisches Widersprechen wird nichts bringen. Ehrlich! Vertraut mir da voellig!
__________ __________ __________
thun no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2015, 03:22 PM   #565
Rohne
Schwarzkutte
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Franconofurd
Posts: 830
Likes (Received): 361

In the meantime, the study for Middle Rhine corridor has been finished and published.

In short, for passenger traffic it's recommended to:
- build the HSL Frankfurt - Mannheim for 300kph as planned, but as mixed use (high speed trains during the day, freight trains durng the night)
and
- upgrade Karlsruhe - Graben-Neudorf (junction with HSL Mannheim - Stuttgart) to 4 tracks with 200 kph

So no more doubts about demand and usefulness of the HSL

Financing and time window for construction are a different story, of course.
__________________

Deadeye Reloaded liked this post
Rohne no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 22nd, 2015, 07:48 PM   #566
bluemeansgo
Registered User
 
bluemeansgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 451
Likes (Received): 124

Meanwhile in Japan they just broke their previous record: 603km/h manned ride on a 42.8km track.
bluemeansgo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2015, 08:47 AM   #567
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,157
Likes (Received): 274

That must hurt for the Germans, considering they have similar technology (Transrapid) available for immediate deployment. In fact the Shanghai Transrapid achieved 501,5 km/h during testing.
__________________
Public transport: Mode of transport that takes to much time to take you from the place you're not currently located, to the place you didn't want to go to, at a time that doesn't really suit you.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2015, 01:45 PM   #568
Silly_Walks
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 3,974
Likes (Received): 836

I have been on the Shanghai Transrapid, and it very shaky. I hope the Japanese type of Maglev is better.
Silly_Walks no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2015, 09:12 PM   #569
M-NL
Mixed-mode traveller
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Posts: 1,157
Likes (Received): 274

Enough shaking to be visible on an in-cab video? I've not seen a Japanese video suggesting it was shaky yet.
__________________
Public transport: Mode of transport that takes to much time to take you from the place you're not currently located, to the place you didn't want to go to, at a time that doesn't really suit you.
M-NL no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2015, 10:07 PM   #570
bluemeansgo
Registered User
 
bluemeansgo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 451
Likes (Received): 124

Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
That must hurt for the Germans, considering they have similar technology (Transrapid) available for immediate deployment. In fact the Shanghai Transrapid achieved 501,5 km/h during testing.

I'd always thought that the transrapid tech was quite different from the Japanese maglev. The fundamental technology is different.

The only thing that they have in common is that they both levitate to reduce friction and achieve high speeds.
bluemeansgo no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 23rd, 2015, 11:47 PM   #571
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2154

Quote:
Originally Posted by Goy View Post
Guy, it is not realistic for while. Beacause of 2 reasons:

1 - Czech Republic have not enough money to build it without EU funds;

2 - Currently countries from Central Europe (Czech Republic, Hungary...) have anti-west and pro-russia gouvernments. They don't want it.

I think a line Berlin-Dresden is ideal for a while, when those countries become more favourable to West they can improve its connection with West countries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by thun View Post
If we look at Munich-Praha: No, not at all. Afaik the only direct connection is the odd Alex which has destination coaches switched in Marktredwitz or somewhere only.
I guess that a decent connection Nuremberg - Plzen together with electrificaton of Regensburg - Hof makes more sense than only a HSL from Munich.
Few points.

1) Anti - western, pro Russia etc bullshit is not only completely irrelevant here, but it is also made up idiocy. But back to the trains.

2) Berlin, Wien and Prague are all in the European TOP 10 tourist destinations. It would be only logical that if any international HSR line would go through CZ, it would go:
Berlin - Dresden - Praha - Brno - Wien -> Possibly Bratislava and Budapest.
The other important direction is Wien - Brno - Ostrava - Katowice

3) Munich (or Nürnberg)- Praha would be nice, and it could go on to Wroclav, but it simply could not make up as much traffic I would say. Especially, because it has less internal potential in the CZ. But it is fine for some additional projects.

4) At the moment, the rail line between Plzeň - Domažlice - CZ-D border is not electrified and one track. I am not sure how it looks on the German side after Furth im Wald.

This line should be getting an upgrade on the Czech side in the next years and it has been decided that it will stay one track line, with some adjustments and electrification. The speed should be than between 100 - 140 km/h, with 160 km/h max for Pendolino. So, that's at best what it will be there in the next at least 20 years. But I don't expect Pendolino to ever enter Germany.

The spatial plans have reserve for a 200 km/h line there.

5) For the Czech republic the most important relations are Praha - Brno and Praha - Ostrava. If there should be any investments in HSR, it is absolutely clear that they should at first concentrate on the Praha - Brno relation. It would also make the most sense to build those lines from the scratch as the present lines just got completely renovated and would be perfect for all other traffic, local and freight, in the future. It is also completely clear that those investments can happen only as a part of international undertaking with the support of the EU.

6) If there is anything holding this back. It is.
a) Incompetence of the Czech government and it's agencies which are not able to prepare the legislation for this, plan it, gain support for it in D,AU,PL and the EU (financing of up to 85 % is possible with right management of the project), and be able to actually undertake it. That is the biggest problem
b) Germany and Austria have different priorities than this. Even if there is long tradition of Berlin - Wien connection (e.g. Vindobonna), both respective countries would profit more if they finished this connection bypassing Czech republic (i.e. Berlin - Nürnberg - Linz - Wien). And any connection though Praha, will become a partial competition to this, so I don't expect that much support from either Berlin or Wien.

Last edited by Surel; April 23rd, 2015 at 11:52 PM.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2015, 02:31 AM   #572
Slartibartfas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vedunia
Posts: 11,595
Likes (Received): 5955

Tell me about Austrian rail priorities... it is not all bad (the Wien Hauptbahnhof makes a lot of sense and its beneficial impact is clearly also relevant for Czech connections) but the rail upgrades towards Czech, Slovak/Polish destinations are either happening at ultra snail speed or not happening at all.

Berlin-Vienna would be of perfect HSR distance but instead we have a connection where no one knows if they don't cut it down eventually at all. I am not sure the connection via Nürnberg is such a perfect thing, look at a map. Why would that be preferable to a equally built out HSR corridor via Brno and Prague? Maybe because unlike the castle in the clouds that the Czech version is, the German corridor largely exists or is at least under construction, except for the part from Nürnberg to Linz?
__________________
"Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it.”
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary, UK
Slartibartfas no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2015, 08:55 AM   #573
LtBk
Registered User
 
LtBk's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Greater Baltimore
Posts: 3,103
Likes (Received): 3706

From the outsider's point of view it sounds like policymakers in Central Europe are still stuck in the Cold War when it comes to transit improvements to neighboring countries.

Last edited by LtBk; April 24th, 2015 at 09:10 AM.
LtBk no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2015, 11:04 AM   #574
Baron Hirsch
Kara Tren Solcusu
 
Baron Hirsch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Berlin/Istanbul
Posts: 1,337
Likes (Received): 475

Quote:
Originally Posted by Surel View Post
b) Germany and Austria have different priorities than this. Even if there is long tradition of Berlin - Wien connection (e.g. Vindobonna), both respective countries would profit more if they finished this connection bypassing Czech republic (i.e. Berlin - Nürnberg - Linz - Wien). And any connection though Praha, will become a partial competition to this, so I don't expect that much support from either Berlin or Wien.
The last day-time time Berlin-Prague-Vienna (Vindobona) was cancelled in December. While RailJets might have improved services between Vienna and Prague, they have definitely worsened the option for Berlin-Vienna. Now long layovers of an hour are necessary to change trains in Prague.
With the HSR route Leipzig-Erfurt opening this year and Erfurt-Nuremberg two years from now, The faster route will be using this VDE 8 corridor and the Westbahn, even if Nuremberg-Linz (the link between these two HSR) is admittedly a crawl too and even if a change of trains will still be necessary in Nuremberg.
Nothing much will be happening anytime soon to compete with this fast but long detour route around CR. Some improvements are underway on the section Berlin-Dresden, but not really HSR. The option of a HSR Dresden-Prague has remained on paper to my knowledge, with neither side taking any steps.
Then again, Going Berlin-Vienna via Nuremberg is already extremely more expensive than via Prague, and if you are targeting tourists, they may prefer the more affordable route, which happens to be the more scenic one too, even if the Czech government continues to neglect railway development.
Baron Hirsch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2015, 11:16 AM   #575
Baron Hirsch
Kara Tren Solcusu
 
Baron Hirsch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Berlin/Istanbul
Posts: 1,337
Likes (Received): 475

Quote:
Originally Posted by LtBk View Post
From the outsider's point of view it sounds like policymakers in Central Europe are still stuck in the Cold War when it comes to transit improvements to neighboring countries.
Even worse. The EU legislation, fixed on the merit of competition on rails, has put the de facto state monopoly railway companies of different countries at each other's throats. While in the past border-crossing trains were operated as shared enterprises between the state companies, now single companies have to claim prior responsibility for trains and pay a lease for using the other country's rails. As these tend to be artificially high, there is little incentive to operate border-crossing trains. Plus, technical and bureaucratic hurdles (train models must still be approved individually by each country for operation) are an additional turn-off. This contrasts with sometimes lavish subsidies for border-crossing infrastructure, which as rule remains under-used (see the French-Spanish HSR or Villach-Udine). While there is now an increasing awareness for the negative effect of EU regulations on international train operations, we have yet to see decisive action to change things.
__________________

MarcVD liked this post
Baron Hirsch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2015, 06:15 PM   #576
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2154

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
The last day-time time Berlin-Prague-Vienna (Vindobona) was cancelled in December. While RailJets might have improved services between Vienna and Prague, they have definitely worsened the option for Berlin-Vienna. Now long layovers of an hour are necessary to change trains in Prague.
With the HSR route Leipzig-Erfurt opening this year and Erfurt-Nuremberg two years from now, The faster route will be using this VDE 8 corridor and the Westbahn, even if Nuremberg-Linz (the link between these two HSR) is admittedly a crawl too and even if a change of trains will still be necessary in Nuremberg.
Nothing much will be happening anytime soon to compete with this fast but long detour route around CR. Some improvements are underway on the section Berlin-Dresden, but not really HSR. The option of a HSR Dresden-Prague has remained on paper to my knowledge, with neither side taking any steps.
Then again, Going Berlin-Vienna via Nuremberg is already extremely more expensive than via Prague, and if you are targeting tourists, they may prefer the more affordable route, which happens to be the more scenic one too, even if the Czech government continues to neglect railway development.
Czech republic upgraded all the major lines already. There are 4 so called corridors and the works are already finished on most of the whole master plan, aside from the corridor Praha - Plzeň or České Budějovice and some of the stations and like e.g. Brno. But Brno needs to be rebuild in such a way that it would allow the HSR already. The problem of this decision is that it on most places was not that ambitious, although nevertheless very costly, and kept the alignment. So the speeds were never thought for higher than 160 km/h. Mostly they are on 100 - 160 km/h range.

There is thus not much improvement possible on the Czech side for the conventional Wien - Praha - Berlin line. There were huge works on the line already and the speeds are set. It doesn't make much sense to try to increase the speed on those track even more, as it would require huge investments because most of the tracks would need completely new alignments. Thus I guess building HSR from scratch would be better and economical. And on the segments, where you could increase the speed now to 200+, it doesn't make so much a difference for the whole relation. The only place you could do it with not that high costs is Brno - Břeclav segment.

You can't really say that Czech government ignores the railway development. It just ignores, as of now, the HSR part of it. Other than that railways improved dramatically inside the Czech republic. E.g. on the Praha - Ostrava line you have 3 hour connection, 3 rail operators competing, no subsidies. But the HSR development has to be done as international project. It has little sense for the Czech republic as a national project. It has to be done as build from scratch project, and it has to get EU financing. And those are all areas where the Czech Authorities are not very strong in.

There is additional problem with Germany. The DB netz and DB are not separated entities but a holding and they help each other quite a lot. To illustrate. In the 90s, Czech government bought Pendolino's with the idea, that Czech railway would operate them on the Berlin - Wien route. But DB would not suffer Pendolino's in Germany.

The RailJet story is around the same. The DB would not suffer RailJet in Germany on the Berlin - Dresden, or rather the profitable Hamburg - Dresden line. The Berlin - Dresden line is being upgraded afair to 230 km/h btw.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2015, 06:21 PM   #577
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2154

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Even worse. The EU legislation, fixed on the merit of competition on rails, has put the de facto state monopoly railway companies of different countries at each other's throats. While in the past border-crossing trains were operated as shared enterprises between the state companies, now single companies have to claim prior responsibility for trains and pay a lease for using the other country's rails. As these tend to be artificially high, there is little incentive to operate border-crossing trains. Plus, technical and bureaucratic hurdles (train models must still be approved individually by each country for operation) are an additional turn-off. This contrasts with sometimes lavish subsidies for border-crossing infrastructure, which as rule remains under-used (see the French-Spanish HSR or Villach-Udine). While there is now an increasing awareness for the negative effect of EU regulations on international train operations, we have yet to see decisive action to change things.
It could be perhaps possible, but totally unacceptable for the majority of European public, if there would be a supranational railway lines operator and railway service operator, with national governments having stakes in those. The regional and other local services would be than contracted on the free market.

But it indeed is quite harmful having national operators competing against each other, national authorities then of course helping their respective national champions, with legislation and supervision. In this way, it is very unlikely that we would see in Europe such a railway system as what the Chinese have.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2015, 06:31 PM   #578
Surel
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,702
Likes (Received): 2154

Quote:
Originally Posted by Slartibartfas View Post
Berlin-Vienna would be of perfect HSR distance but instead we have a connection where no one knows if they don't cut it down eventually at all. I am not sure the connection via Nürnberg is such a perfect thing, look at a map. Why would that be preferable to a equally built out HSR corridor via Brno and Prague? Maybe because unlike the castle in the clouds that the Czech version is, the German corridor largely exists or is at least under construction, except for the part from Nürnberg to Linz?
a) Because it already exists.
b) Because it is much more important for the intra country connections. So it makes lot of sense to invest the money there first. You can see it also on the fact that the least developed part is between Nürnberg and Linz. It is perfectly understandable and no hard feelings about it .
c) It only shows that in order to create HSR connections in Central Europe, we need international projects. Financing via EU. This brings another problem. What is possible to finance via EU in Czech Republic, won't be eligible for EU financing in Austria and Germany. Which again motivates Austria and Germany to develop rather national than international projects.
d) And because as you say it, castles in the clouds on the Czech side, might turn quite tricky when putting things from mouth on paper, and from paper into reality.
Surel no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 24th, 2015, 07:34 PM   #579
Baron Hirsch
Kara Tren Solcusu
 
Baron Hirsch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Berlin/Istanbul
Posts: 1,337
Likes (Received): 475

Thanx 4 those maps on CD. I remember the train Prague-Brno was diverted via H. Brod for a while and has now returned to its route via C. Trebova. It seemed to me that the overall traveling time of of the EuroCity Berlin-Budapest had remained the same. Is the speed increase the RailJet now boasts (Prague-Vienna) due to better state of rails west of C. Trebova or simply because of the Austrian section?
Berlin-Dresden will be upgraded to first 160 kmh, later 200 with some sections remaining slower, no 230 kmh. Nonetheless, this is supposed to reduce traveling times to as little as 70 minutes sometime in the next decade (last problematic part is within Belrin city limits, where NIMBY protests have stopped any works or final planning from happening. DB has surrendered to the NIMBY demands for a tunnel to reduce noise in a southern suburb, but this makes additional planning necessary.
I remember that DB refused to let RailJets operate on the Berlin-Decin section supposedly because the rails were too bad. At the same time, they tried to start a new service on that line with one of CD's private rivals, but had to give up for lack of rolling stock. Now CD will modernize some of its old EuroCitys and operate them on that line. What a shame how competition hinders better services in transborder operations...

Last edited by Baron Hirsch; April 24th, 2015 at 07:50 PM.
Baron Hirsch no está en línea   Reply With Quote
Old April 25th, 2015, 12:40 AM   #580
Slartibartfas
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Vedunia
Posts: 11,595
Likes (Received): 5955

The "speed increase" is due to a better timetable coordination or so, if I am not mistaken, ie they got rid of some of the inefficiencies of that specific connection. I didn't really get the details. Surel might know more, but there was no improvement of tracks on the Austrian side at least, as far as I know.

I mean look a the distance, it is not like 4 hours something for that is speed of light anyway.
__________________
"Brexit means Brexit and we are going to make a Titanic success of it.”
Boris Johnson, Foreign Secretary, UK
Slartibartfas no está en línea   Reply With Quote


Reply

Tags
ice

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Related topics on SkyscraperCity


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 02:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Feedback Buttons provided by Advanced Post Thanks / Like (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2018 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.

SkyscraperCity ☆ In Urbanity We trust ☆ about us | privacy policy | DMCA policy

tech management by Sysprosium