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Old April 28th, 2015, 12:10 AM   #621
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
Yes. And tax exemption on aviation fuel is protected by international treaties.

The logical way to answer should be to make rail fuel also tax-free, and leave only road paying taxes on fuel.
I heard that rail fuel is tax free in Denmark, so the ICE-D train to Copenhagen always fills up over there.

On the subject of diesel trains though, does anyone know how far they can go on a tank?
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Old April 28th, 2015, 02:20 AM   #622
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Night trains are simply bad economics. They're a romantic idea but in reality a lot of people can't sleep on a train or don't want to sleep on a train and would rather get up early and fly.

Also you have to staff night trains and you also would have fewer opportunities to perform maintenance on the tracks.

Concentrate, instead, on making day trains faster and keep the tracks at night for freight.
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Old April 28th, 2015, 06:08 AM   #623
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Even if "a lot" of people can't or don't want to sleep on a train, there are still plenty that DO. Sleeper trains are often sold out throughout Europe.

The passage of a few trains (maybe 3-4 per line) isn't nearly so disruptive to maintenance as freight trains.

Staffing the sleeper trains isn't as hard as it seems-once you factor in the ground crew and other staff for an airliner, they become more competitive.
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Old April 28th, 2015, 06:17 AM   #624
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IF they cover their costs or are in such high demand why would they be cancelled.

I can't speak for Europe but in Japan overnight trains are simply not cost effective. Raising the price results in lower ridership. That's why as high speed rail lines opened the overnight trains seem to go away.

My guess is that those who book an overnight are travellers trying save a few bucks on a hotel or trying to maximize their time travelling. Those passengers would probably switch to an overnight bus before they switched to a day train any how.
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Old April 28th, 2015, 06:28 AM   #625
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Originally Posted by 00Zy99 View Post
Even if "a lot" of people can't or don't want to sleep on a train, there are still plenty that DO. Sleeper trains are often sold out throughout Europe.
They are sometimes sold out. On days everyone wants to travel. The problem is that most of the time they aren't, and then the railways are just shuffling expensive metal around. I have been on night trains where I was the only passenger in the whole carriage.

Quote:
The passage of a few trains (maybe 3-4 per line) isn't nearly so disruptive to maintenance as freight trains.
Problem is that health and safety rules require passage of 0 trains for maintenance to be permitted...

Quote:
Staffing the sleeper trains isn't as hard as it seems-once you factor in the ground crew and other staff for an airliner, they become more competitive.
you forget that trains have "ground crew" as well, and that the numbers of pkm produced per staff member are higher for airlines (and high speed trains).
I used to take night trains to France from Belgium to go on skiing holidays. Then those trains got cancelled and the railway ran TGVs in stead.
For the TGV service they only needed on set on saturday, and a crew that travelled with it for the whole journey, put and back. Their lies the big difference... Personal costs are high in railways. The productivity in pkm per staff member is a lot higher for high speed trains then for night trains.
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Old April 28th, 2015, 07:03 AM   #626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
IF they cover their costs or are in such high demand why would they be cancelled.

I can't speak for Europe but in Japan overnight trains are simply not cost effective. Raising the price results in lower ridership. That's why as high speed rail lines opened the overnight trains seem to go away.

My guess is that those who book an overnight are travellers trying save a few bucks on a hotel or trying to maximize their time travelling. Those passengers would probably switch to an overnight bus before they switched to a day train any how.
As noted on another thread, the politics makes them spend a disproportionate amount of track fees on sleeper trains.
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Old April 28th, 2015, 10:08 AM   #627
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Indeed. I went to Brussels Midi last september to buy a ticket from Brussels
to Palermo, and it took about half an hour to have everything fixed, although
I prepared all the itinerary, down to the train numbers, myself.

Next week I'm going to Athens, took an interrail ticket for that (simpler and
cheaper) but still went anyway to the station for the train reservations.
The girl at the counter could only reserve the Brussels-Basel leg. For the
Zurich-Budapest-Craiova-Sofia part, I finally got my reservations from
the "special products" division of SNCB, it took 3 days to sort that out.
And for Sofia-Thessaloniki-Athens, no way.
Which is why I am not in favour of punishing other modes just because the railways can't get their act together...
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Old April 28th, 2015, 02:03 PM   #628
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Why do they stick to 16.7Hz I'll never understand.
What do they have to gain from switching to 25kV 50 Hz? At this moment the advantages do not outweigh the investment required.
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Old April 28th, 2015, 02:16 PM   #629
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What do they have to gain from switching to 25kV 50 Hz? At this moment the advantages do not outweigh the investment required.
The gain from changing the frequency is that DB stops needing its own power grid! The tension can be whatever.
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Old April 28th, 2015, 04:39 PM   #630
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Originally Posted by chornedsnorkack View Post
How does the energy efficiency of high speed trains compare against slow speed trains?

Energy efficiency: passenger-kilometres carried per unit of energy (1kwh = 0.086kep) (Source: UIC)
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Old April 28th, 2015, 07:44 PM   #631
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The gain from changing the frequency is that DB stops needing its own power grid! The tension can be whatever.
Power stations that create 15kV 16.7Hz directly from the public power grid already exist, they're called Bahnstromumformerwerk in German.
They used to use motor-generators for that, but nowadays modern power electronics are used.

If Germany were to switch to 50Hz they would need to change a lot of infrastructure, because 50Hz requires much larger safety distances, even at 15kV. The original reason to go with 16.7Hz in the first place was because it produced less arcing in the motors and switch gear.

In 25 years or so, when Germany has phased out PZB/LZB in favour of ERTMS, all new equipment is capable of running on 25kV and all the old equipment is not used anymore because it's to expensive to retrofit with ERTMS, then would be a good time to switch.
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Old April 28th, 2015, 10:42 PM   #632
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http://www.freiepresse.de/NACHRICHTE...kel9180988.php

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EU, Sachsen und Tschechien für Neubaustrecke Dresden-Prag

Dresden (dpa/sn) - Gemeinsam mit der tschechischen Regierung und der EU-Kommission will Sachsen die Aufnahme der lange geplanten Bahn-Neubaustrecke Dresden-Prag in den Bundesverkehrswegeplan erreichen. Die Europäische Union habe die Strecke selbst bei der Bundesregierung angemeldet und auch die Deutsche Bahn habe ihre Unterstützung zugesagt, sagte Sachsens Verkehrsminister Martin Dulig (SPD) am Dienstag bei einem Treffen mit dem EU-Koordinator Mathieu Grosch und dem Eisenbahndirektor der tschechischen Regierung, Jindrich Kušnír, in Dresden. Deshalb seien die Vorzeichen günstig.

...

Google translate:

EU, Saxony and the Czech Republic for new line Dresden-Prague

Dresden (dpa / sn) - together with the Czech Government and the EU Commission wants to achieve Saxony recording the long-planned train new line Dresden-Prague in the Federal Transport Infrastructure Plan. The European Union had signed the route even in the federal government and the German Railways have pledged their support, said Saxony's Minister of Transport Martin Dulig (SPD) on Tuesday at a meeting with the EU coordinator Mathieu Grosch and the railway director of the Czech Government, Jindrich Kušnír , in Dresden. Therefore the signs are favorable.

The inclusion in the Federal Transport Infrastructure Plan in the next year is the prerequisite for the further progress of the project. It also provides for the construction of tunnels in the Ore Mountains and is replaced by the Elbe valley, the route of the long-distance freight and passenger traffic.

Grosch underlined the importance of the route for the development of trans-European networks. "What happens here is for Hamburg important for Prague important, but also for Athens important." To finance the development of transport networks of the EU stood 30 billion euros. Of these 80 per cent were provided for rail and inland waterway.
There seems to be at least some media stir about Dresden - Praha line if anything. There´s been already several similar news in the last months that I read.
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Old April 29th, 2015, 03:22 PM   #633
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Would be very good for making Czech rail routes still attractive as a corridor once the HSR Leipzig-Nuremberg is opened in 2018 or so. Would be also good to decrease flights to Prague in favor of rail from Northern Germany. A pity though about the old line, one of the most beautiful in Central Europe. I guess it will be still used for slower trains, as the Rhine Valley line(s) remains in use despite Cologne-Frankfurt HSR.
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Old April 29th, 2015, 03:57 PM   #634
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Maybe they can rebrand it with some fancy name, like the Swiss did with many of their routes to increase tourism.
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Old April 30th, 2015, 09:39 PM   #635
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Would be also good to decrease flights to Prague in favor of rail from Northern Germany.
Berlin-Nuremberg will be something like 2 1/2h, imagine this with Prague-Berlin. It would be possible with HSR, this would be great. I suppose if any route from Germany to the eastern countries would be worth of HSR it would be Dresden-Prague and Berlin-Warsaw.

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Old May 5th, 2015, 12:01 AM   #636
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http://www.ceskenoviny.cz/news/zprav...berlin/1212239

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He said the Czech Republic is interested in building a high-speed Prague-Berlin line.

"I asked the Chancellor for intensive cooperation in the mutual development of rail connection. The Czech Republic is very strongly interested in upgrading the rail link between Prague and Berlin. We believe that high-speed trains could be serving it in the future. We would also like very much to modernise the rail connection between Prague and Munich," Sobotka said.
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Old May 7th, 2015, 02:17 AM   #637
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I suppose if any route from Germany to the eastern countries would be worth of HSR it would be Dresden-Prague and Berlin-Warsaw.
Yeah. The Berlin-Warszawa Express, at ~5h30min, is not what I would call especially fast.
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Old May 9th, 2015, 08:53 PM   #638
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Originally Posted by PredyGr View Post

Energy efficiency: passenger-kilometres carried per unit of energy (1kwh = 0.086kep) (Source: UIC)
Sorry, but that graph doesn't make sense. How could a highspeed train could possibly be more energy efficient than a slower IC train for example? The only way I could imagine that they could get to these numbers is by calculating with a very low usage rate for the slow train while the high speed train is considered sold out.

Or is it because high speed trains have fewer stops therefore have to accelerate less due to that?
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Old May 10th, 2015, 06:24 AM   #639
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That's exactly it. The heavier an object is the more energy it takes to accelerate. High speed trains on dedicated rails are built for aerodynamics and can be built lighter when on dedicated tracks. Slower trains make more stops. Think of it the same way that a Ferrari gets better fuel economy on the highway at higher speeds than a heavier SUV driven in town.
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Old May 10th, 2015, 04:15 PM   #640
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EDIT:
I had a look at the UIC study. Interesting read. Of course it was done by someone very interested in showing a low energy consumption for high speed train but it still shows some very valid points.
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Last edited by Slartibartfas; May 10th, 2015 at 04:41 PM.
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