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Old May 26th, 2015, 10:13 PM   #681
Silly_Walks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M-NL View Post
Did you notice that Belgium was included for both the French and German list because of that?
Did you notice that you specifically placed Belgium with the German list for Thalys, which I then told you uses French trains?
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Old May 27th, 2015, 01:58 AM   #682
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Quite the contrary. It is way simpler to build a network high-speed lines between the major cities in a country like Germany than it is to connect provincial towns of France to its capital.


With 4 of the 6 largest and most important cities being connectable by a single line it would have been quite obvious where to start implementing the high-speed technology in Germany.

The problem is the majority of Germans do not live in cities like Hamburg, Berlin, and Frankufrt. The live in more spread out in smaller cities like Pforzheim, Bayreuth, and Ulm. Connecting the big cities will give you a relatively small amount of passengers.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 06:18 PM   #683
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The problem is the majority of Germans do not live in cities like Hamburg, Berlin, and Frankufrt. The live in more spread out in smaller cities like Pforzheim, Bayreuth, and Ulm. Connecting the big cities will give you a relatively small amount of passengers.
Its been said that some also live in a city called Bielefeld. However, nobody has ever been able to conclusively prove this.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 06:31 PM   #684
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaxy View Post
The problem is the majority of Germans do not live in cities like Hamburg, Berlin, and Frankufrt. The live in more spread out in smaller cities like Pforzheim, Bayreuth, and Ulm. Connecting the big cities will give you a relatively small amount of passengers.
Who cares where the majority lives? Those cities on the Köln - München line have enough inhabitants to fill a HS train every 30 minutes withouth a single stop in between the cities.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 06:52 PM   #685
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Who cares where the majority lives? Those cities on the Köln - München line have enough inhabitants to fill a HS train every 30 minutes withouth a single stop in between the cities.
If that were the case DB would be running lots of non stop trains already. They aren't.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 07:00 PM   #686
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If that were the case DB would be running lots of non stop trains already. They aren't.
How could they when the tracks are missing. For this kind of services a dedicated high-speed line would be needed. But only some sections of it have been built as yet.

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The problem is the majority of Germans do not live in cities like Hamburg, Berlin, and Frankufrt. The live in more spread out in smaller cities like Pforzheim, Bayreuth, and Ulm. Connecting the big cities will give you a relatively small amount of passengers.
It doesn't have to serve a majority to be worthwhile. The number of people who benefit directly from a piece of infrastructure will always be a small minority in a fairly large country like Germany. That applies for a Köln-München high-speed line as well as the railway lines to and from Pforzheim, Bayreuth and Ulm.
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Old May 27th, 2015, 11:28 PM   #687
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But governments unfortunately are facing the challenge that they have to use public funds in a way that as much citizens as possible are profiting of them.
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Old May 28th, 2015, 12:23 AM   #688
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Trains from smaller cities are treat like local or rapid service and they must never impede the super express.

Same as the autobahn really.

People who take a train from small city to large city get local service. At large city they can transfer to super express to get to destination.

This way suburbs are served (small cities) and the direct trains offering the most competitive service are all full.
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Old May 28th, 2015, 02:02 AM   #689
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But governments unfortunately are facing the challenge that they have to use public funds in a way that as much citizens as possible are profiting of them.
No, public funds have to be used in a way to benefit the country economically. A Köln-München high-speed line would do exactly this.
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Old May 28th, 2015, 10:45 AM   #690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Trains from smaller cities are treat like local or rapid service and they must never impede the super express.

Same as the autobahn really.

People who take a train from small city to large city get local service. At large city they can transfer to super express to get to destination.

This way suburbs are served (small cities) and the direct trains offering the most competitive service are all full.
Unfortunately that does not seem to be working in Germany. While many cities form part of larger agglomerations, such as the Rhein Main Area, passengers still clamor to have direct ICE services from Darmstadt or other places that could easily reach Frankfurt Hbf within less than an hour. Also DB has now announced that it aims to reinstate direct IC services to mid-size towns that had fallen off the grid and are currently only being served by RegionalExpress. There is a subjective and an objective need for direct services to such places: many passengers consider it a nuisance to interrupt their journey, gather their belongings and change. Depending on luggage, children, and physical condition, this can be stress. But there is also an objective side: DB hardly ever manages to stick to its schedules, connections are easily disrupted by delays and then it it better to sit in a train that will get to your destination eventually than being stuck on some in-between station.
By the way to always quote the false ideal, I believe TGVs do usually connect quite a number of small towns off their beaten route at least a few times a day.
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Old May 28th, 2015, 03:07 PM   #691
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By the way to always quote the false ideal, I believe TGVs do usually connect quite a number of small towns off their beaten route at least a few times a day.
Definitely true, but it must be said that these things are easier to arrange in what is essentially a monocentric network. To cite a slightly flippant example, the S-Bahns of several large German cities also have a number of trains that either stop at every second station or service only the outer or inner suburbs. When the large majority of passengers want to get into/out of the centre of the network as quickly as possible this is an ideal solution. In Japan they can obtain something similar (although like Germany they have a very dense pack of provincial cities) because most of the Shinkansen traffic takes place on a straight north-south line. It wouldn't necessarily work in a multi-nodal network like Germany's railway grid.

I think in addition to the German "peculiarities" already mentioned we need to add a few differences of culture and/or perception. First, when HSR was introduced in France (and even more so in Spain) the following message was repeatedly drilled into the population: "This is not an upgrade of an existing railway network; it is an alternative to air transport". - Which, in turn, made point-to-point railway connections much easier to sell. The planes between Paris and Lyon did not make intermediate landings in Dijon, so why should the TGVs stop there? However, in Germany the HS lines are mostly perceived as improvements of existing railway networks, and therefore the public debate evolves along well-know battle lines: (1) this is about the travel time between immediately neighbouring towns; and (2) it is an outrage if a town loses its well-earned rights to be serviced by all intercity trains in this part of the country.

Secondly, the Germans are extremely attached to their "Heimart" (homestead) and perhaps for this reason there is little acceptance of the apparently inevitable decline of small-town society. In a country like France - and even in my tiny native Denmark - the press is full of stories about how the population in 1-2 generations' time will be living in a dozen large urban centres separated by empty space. Once the population accepts this vision of the future it becomes obvious that the railway investments should focus on connecting this dozen of agglomerations with as high travel speed as possible. (And, as a corollary, invest in metros and trams in those towns.) This is the public perception of the future, and the basis for current infrastructure planning, in a lot of European countries. But apparently not in Germany.
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Old May 28th, 2015, 03:31 PM   #692
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Q: Why are discussions about German Railways over and over again caught by friendly dogfights "German HSR infrastructure layout vs. French HSR infrastructure layout"?

It was like this 10 years ago, it will be like this in 10 years. The chain of arguments and counter-arguments could be copied and pasted from 10 pages before. It's basically like rewriting the bible over and over again ...


I see this as a funny "coming of age" phenomena of every rail fain seems to go through during a certain phase of life, me included (long time ago luckily) :-)

Never mind, don't let me disturb the good discussions ... ;-)
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Old May 28th, 2015, 09:26 PM   #693
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Secondly, the Germans are extremely attached to their "Heimart" (homestead) and perhaps for this reason there is little acceptance of the apparently inevitable decline of small-town society. In a country like France - and even in my tiny native Denmark - the press is full of stories about how the population in 1-2 generations' time will be living in a dozen large urban centres separated by empty space. Once the population accepts this vision of the future it becomes obvious that the railway investments should focus on connecting this dozen of agglomerations with as high travel speed as possible. (And, as a corollary, invest in metros and trams in those towns.) This is the public perception of the future, and the basis for current infrastructure planning, in a lot of European countries. But apparently not in Germany.
I don't know about that. According to demographic projections posted by user Chrissib and other people, the major urban areas and towns are growing while the rural areas and smaller towns are facing population decline.
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Old May 28th, 2015, 10:10 PM   #694
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The population trend is more or less identical everywhere in the developed world. The difference is only in the extent and public perception.
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Old May 29th, 2015, 12:23 AM   #695
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Deutsche Bahn might buy trains and parts from China in near future:
Quote:
Deutsche Bahn eyes shopping spree in China

German rail operator Deutsche Bahn has said it's considering buying trains and spare parts from Chinese producers in a couple of years. German suppliers such as Siemens will not be amused by the announcement.



German rail giant Deutsche Bahn said it was mulling the option of buying trains and spare parts from China medium-term.

"In three to five years from now, Asia and China in particular can assume a key role in supplying Deutsche Bahn with trains and spare parts," board member Heike Hanagarth said in an interview for Tuesday's edition of the "Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung."

She mentioned that the company would most likely open a purchasing office in Beijing as early as this coming fall.

Looking for alternatives

"It's our objective to cooperate with Chinese train makers CSR and CNR," Hanagarth added. The two companies are in the process of merging right now to be in a better position to win more orders from abroad.

The combined entity would have future capacities able to cover half of the global demand for trains, the "Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung" estimated.

Hanagarth told the newspaper that Deutsche Bahn wanted to "show current suppliers like ICE trainmaker Siemens that it was taking a closer look at the offers made by competitors. She also said the Chinese government was highly interested in getting a deal with Deutsche Bahn.
http://www.dw.de/deutsche-bahn-eyes-...ina/a-18475815

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Old May 29th, 2015, 12:39 PM   #696
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Deutsche Bahn might buy trains and parts from China in near future:


http://www.dw.de/deutsche-bahn-eyes-...ina/a-18475815

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Given the huge trade surplus Germany has with China buying more in China would be a good thing. As long as the quality is good.
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Old May 29th, 2015, 01:56 PM   #697
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Actually, I think Japan can be most closely compared to Britain. We are both proud island nations, and proud of our monarchy and culture. Furthermore unlike Germany and France, Japan and Britain have a culture of perhaps being a little unspoken, and social etiquette is very important in both countries. Unfortunately, we do not have the industry to compare to Japan, we used to, but lets not go down that road...
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Old May 29th, 2015, 02:51 PM   #698
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All interesting points on culture, but we're talking about high speed rail here.
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Old May 29th, 2015, 03:59 PM   #699
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Why wouldn't they buy AGV/TGV?

Alstom at least knows how to make a train, as Siemens just proves time and again it does not.
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Old May 29th, 2015, 08:07 PM   #700
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talgo avril ?
Hace ya un año by Luis Manuel Franco, en Flickr
or caf oaris
CAF Oaris en Zaragoza-Delicias by Jorge del Valle, en Flickr
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