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Old December 7th, 2015, 12:39 AM   #761
goschio
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Seems more a step backwards. Also 250 km/h is a joke.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 12:54 AM   #762
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So German taxpayers have shelled out billions of Euros in order to build new 300 km/h HSR tracks such as Nuremberg-Erfurt and Erfurt-Leipzig only to see DB buying trains that are only capable of running 230 or 250 km/h. WTF
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Old December 7th, 2015, 04:17 AM   #763
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only 2.8m width??
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Old December 7th, 2015, 04:23 AM   #764
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I wonder if this train could be updated to 350km/h. Like others pointed out 250km/h max speed is disappointing.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 04:28 AM   #765
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goschio View Post
Seems more a step backwards. Also 250 km/h is a joke.
This train is not a replacement or successor to the ICE 3/Velaro.

The idea is to replace existing InterCity-trains and at a later stage replace ICE 1 and 2. IIRC the ICE4 has a limit of 249km/h because the requirements are much easier to reach than for 250+.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 04:37 AM   #766
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Just wondering, how competitive is the ICE with domestic air travel? As an American living in a smaller city with its own airport a mere 75km north of Boston (with its major airport), I fantasize that in smaller countries with good rail systems, domestic air travel becomes obsolete. How close is Germany to my fantasy ? (I'm not expecting "very")
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Old December 7th, 2015, 04:44 AM   #767
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They are very competitive for shorter distances of less than 300km, not so much for travel across the whole country such as Hamburg-Munich.

Also, connections are usually way faster between the north and the south and not so much between cities in the east and west. F.e. very few businesspeople would prefer the ICE over domestic flights when going from say Cologne to Berlin or from Düsseldorf to Dresden.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 05:04 AM   #768
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlomen View Post
The design looks very old
go look at our new stock in USA, looks like 1960 died.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 05:14 AM   #769
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Quote:
Originally Posted by goschio View Post
Seems more a step backwards. Also 250 km/h is a joke.
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Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
So German taxpayers have shelled out billions of Euros in order to build new 300 km/h HSR tracks such as Nuremberg-Erfurt and Erfurt-Leipzig only to see DB buying trains that are only capable of running 230 or 250 km/h. WTF
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Originally Posted by FM 2258 View Post
I wonder if this train could be updated to 350km/h. Like others pointed out 250km/h max speed is disappointing.

Calm down people!


Deutsche Bahn has and will have enough high-speed bullet trains (+300 km/h) for the stretches where such high speed is possible.

It would be a waste of money to invest in a whole fleet of trains which can reach 300 km/h or more and on the other hand sending them on stretches where only 250 km/h is allowed.
The new ICE 4 fleet will replace the slower ICE 1 and 2 trains. The ultra-fast ICE 3s are young and fresh and will speed through Germany´s contryside for many more years.

And this is DB´s fleet of über-superfast trains for the few stretches where they can run at full speed:

50 x ICE 3 (class 403) (Vmax: 330 km/h )
17 x ICE 3 (class 406) (Vmax: 330 km/h )
17 x ICE 3 (class 407) (Vmax: 320 km/h )

=

84 trainsets which are licensed for speeds above 300 km/h.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 09:09 AM   #770
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Originally Posted by flankerjun View Post
only 2.8m width??
They lengthened the carriages to 27,9m for the intermediate and 28,6m for the end cars, compared to about 25m for the ICE3, thus to remain within the loading gauge width they had to make the coaches narrower. The idea was that with longer cars you get more seating space and less doors per length.
It seems though they are making them narrower with every generation: ICE1/2 3,02m, ICE3 2,95m and ICE4 2,85m. Also the seating pitch has been reduced over the generations, to cram in even more seats.
On the other hand: A class 390 New Pendolino is even narrowed at just 2,73m wide.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 12:38 PM   #771
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Originally Posted by Deadeye Reloaded View Post

Calm down people!

Deutsche Bahn has and will have enough high-speed bullet trains (+300 km/h) for the stretches where such high speed is possible.
Only because it has decisively lowered its ambitions. The Velaro sets were acquired not for inner-German routes, but for international rides. Many of the French-German HSR rides now being served by TGVs were actually supposed to be provided by ICEs. Also DB seems to have completely abandoned its plans of serving the Cologne-London connection. As a result, the Velaro, which were expensively equipped to fit with all signaling and electricity voltage systems in Europe, run routes such as Munich-Stuttgart-Cologne-Dortmund.


To your complaint, Raptor: DB plans changed decisively with the change in CEO. Mehdorn in the mid-00 years pushed for serious high-speeds, as he believed no-one stays on a train for more than 3 hours. Now we have Grube, who, on the one hand is killing the night-train system, and on the other hand does not believe in the virtue of high speeds. The result looks like we will be caught on trains declared ICE (still a big price difference) but have practically the performance of an IC (230 kmh instead of 250 kmh vs 200 kmh of older ICs). At the same time, with classic IC being replaced by the 160 kmh doubledeckers, IC speed will be artificially reduced.
Of course not all trains have to have maximum speed capacity, a mixed fleet makes sense. However having the lion's share of one's fleet not capable of running the maximum speed of the grid seriously limits flexibility and will make for unattractive traveling times on some routes. For example, the new slower IC trains will be used on the route Norddeich-Magdeburg-Leipzig-Dresden. The greater part of that route will be fine with 160 kmh, but Leipzig-Dresden is capable of 200 kmh, and as commutes between these two cities are frequent, locals have been protesting the introduction of the doubledeckers.
The same applies for the future ICE4. For example, the Berlin-Cologne route has peaks of no more than 250 kmh and it has to slow down so often on its HSR section that even trains capable only of 230 kmh do not negatively influence travel times (the occasional ICE T runs in the same schedule as the usual ICE2).
However, Berlin westbound ICEs could be extended to run to Brussels and London or Paris, if one used Velaro or ICE3 on them, making a clear East-West route. While many will argue that no-one would travel for 8 hours to get to London or Paris from Berlin, it would simply combine two preexisting routes into one at no real extra costs, while offering direct and faster connections. Sticking to low-speed, not compatible train sets limits such possibilities. Or, while a 230 kmh ICE4 can run the Hamburg-Berlin-Lepizig route, it would be ill-equipped to continue to the logical destination, Nuremberg-Munich via the new HSR equipped for 300 kmh.
Although Grube's vision and the limited resources dedicated to HSR in Germany might always seem more realistic at first glance (does 15 minute speed-difference really justify huge investments?), in the long run such a vision hinders the shift to traffic more sensitive to natural and urban environments. Hamburg-Munich (775 km) takes 5 hours 38 minutes with DB's fastest connection. By contrast, Paris-Marseille (775 km) takes only 3 hours 27 minutes. This rapid connection has made up for a large shift from air to rail travel, something DB can only provide for in a limited fashion. Please do not get to the argument about Germany and France's different population topography: while it has its valid points, it is in general over-stretched to hide the German state's lacking investments into climate-friendly infrastructure.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 06:44 PM   #772
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While the travel time comparison might seem dissappointing, the systems are different.

The Marseille Paris servies only make 2 other stops along the way and are a shuttle to connect Marseille to the Capital, Paris. There used to be 3 million passengers flying between the citys in 2000.
The Hamburg Munich Train is stopping at Hanover, Nuremburg, Inglostadt, Harburg, Fulda, Gottingen, Kassel, Wurzburg.
You cannot dismiss the population demographics. Germany, unlike France cannot focus on a single hub and its unlikely to ever start skipping large stations like these, the trains will always lose time entering and leaving stations no matter how fast they can travel between them
Its not just about connecting Hamburg and Munich, only 1.3 passnegers fly this route annually. These stops in addition to being population centres are also transport hubs, contributing to onward interconnectivity.
For example if I live just south of Paris I have to travel to the city centre and backtrack home, in Germany I would make my connection at Harburg, so the time lost in that case is not as significant.



There are also other things to consider that TGVs produce more revenue on classic tracks than on the dedicated high speed lines. Also the success of TGV has come at the price of the regular intercity network, whereas these ICE4s are planned upgrades to the IC networ
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Old December 7th, 2015, 07:12 PM   #773
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Don't like the design. Looks like a beefed up Talent 2.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 09:54 PM   #774
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
I'm guessing that the AGV's capabilities are beyond what this train is intended for, and the idea of Deutsche Bahn buying French trains is...strange.

However, no doubt this is not a pretty train.
I'm guessing buying Siemens trains does not make much sense either.

They are more than a decade late for Munich U-Bahn, and their deliveries to Deutsche Bahn also also way late. After all of that, they deliver this.

There has to be corruption involved or are they giving them for "free"?

The design is just so out of place compared to other trains they have, for instance, MVG trains will look great.

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Originally Posted by Bbbut View Post
In terms of aesthetics the ICE3 does look better to me as well. The edges and the carp mouth don't do it for me on the new one.
But thank God, they finally got rid of the round door windows, a design element that ruined the side view of all its predecessors.
So overall its an average looking high speed train, not great but definitively not as horrible to look at as the AVG for example.


And in terms of economy I do think the Germans are on the right path. A train service is not about the highest speed possible. To burn twice as much energy just to gain some measly minutes on select few lines, is not the 'smart way' forward.
Better upgrade your fleet to run a lot of ecological 'fast enough'-trains than to chase speed records, spend billions on prestige lines and neglect the rest of your network...


Being bad looking. I must wonder what would be "good" looking to you.

You can also run faster trains slower, just as Chinese are doing. With that you also need less servicing. Also faster trains tend to have better engines, better aerodynamics and better materials.

I don't have any problems with running 250km/h, as you said, it is better to run more trains then few and those fast.


Deutsche Bahn should buy AGV, Siemens just can't deliver. Siemens should sell their train operations, they are just shit at it.


And Germany should be more ambitious, It just does not make sense to not have 300km/h lines between Munich, Stuttgart, Frankfurt, Köln, Hamburg, Berlin.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 11:49 PM   #775
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They'll keep buying Siemens because Deutschland über alles, but no, nationalism is never the best reason to do something.

And ultimately I agree; Germany could use the stimulus that a massive infrastructure investment would provide. However, as the literal birthplace of austerity and place where that idea has found a very loving home, it's probably not going to happen.
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Old December 7th, 2015, 11:54 PM   #776
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As I wrote before, Germany passed on the greatest transportation opportunity of last 50 years when it decided not to build a maglev (Transrapid) network.
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Old December 8th, 2015, 01:05 AM   #777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shenkey View Post


Being bad looking. I must wonder what would be "good" looking to you.

You can also run faster trains slower, just as Chinese are doing. With that you also need less servicing. Also faster trains tend to have better engines, better aerodynamics and better materials.

I don't have any problems with running 250km/h, as you said, it is better to run more trains then few and those fast.
He has a point. The AGV might have advanced aerodynamics, but it certainly doesn't project a sleek image. It does look surprisingly ponderous and, frankly, ugly.

Case in point: The brown train in this picture is a better-looking train, irrespective of the technicals.
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I mean the other 350km/h train

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Old December 8th, 2015, 01:05 AM   #778
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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
They'll keep buying Siemens because Deutschland über alles, but no, nationalism is never the best reason to do something.

And ultimately I agree; Germany could use the stimulus that a massive infrastructure investment would provide. However, as the literal birthplace of austerity and place where that idea has found a very loving home, it's probably not going to happen.
Totally agree and with crumbling infrastructure, this is more than needed.

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Originally Posted by Suburbanist View Post
As I wrote before, Germany passed on the greatest transportation opportunity of last 50 years when it decided not to build a maglev (Transrapid) network.
How are the actual stats. I read somewhere that Transrapid is levitating really low over the tracks and thus shakes way more than Japanese version.

Is there any source where Transrapid and Japanese version are compared?


Transrapid would change the way of travel, but it is just not compatible with neighboring countries, which makes it unfeasible.

Also for maglev to be a realistic option we need room temperature superconductors. This + tube with lower pressure and wind in it would easy make it 700km/h while being economical. Superconductors at room temperature are just not here yet, thus, this has to wait.

Japan for instance can do it. They have few lines which need extraordinary capacity and tere are no neighboring countries with which network is integrated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hammersklavier View Post
He has a point. The AGV might have advanced aerodynamics, but it certainly doesn't project a sleek image. It does look surprisingly ponderous and, frankly, ugly.

Case in point: The brown train in this picture is a better-looking train, irrespective of the technicals.
I agree that both of the front two look good. I prefer the middle one.Both and AGV are miles better than ICE 4. Velaro does not look bad either.

I would put ICE 4 with

I think, we can both agree it is ugly as hell.


I am just a sucker for the font of AGV,

Last edited by Shenkey; December 8th, 2015 at 01:11 AM.
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Old December 8th, 2015, 02:43 AM   #779
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They'll keep buying Siemens because Deutschland über alles, but no, nationalism is never the best reason to do something.
That is just not true!

For the ICE4 project the DB actually went out of their way and specifically set up an international tender for it.
They deliberately aimed for lower speed requirements (250 km/h max) but emphasized economy and comfort. So almost everybody 'in the game' was able to take part.
Systems from 4 different countries applied (2 of them were never revealed to the public), Alstom and Siemens made it to the second round. And during that time period DB was openly upset with Siemens given all the delays in delivery on a number of projects.
But in the end Alstom could not comply to all the technical requirements. So it was not even a political decision of 'buying local' or anything, Siemens won by default.
(The https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesa_Link#Deutsche_Bahn is proof that the political pressure is not that big. DB could give a huge 1,4€ billion contract to a foreign producer, when it had the better offer.)


PS: In what world is this thing not one of the ugliest trains on the market?
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Old December 8th, 2015, 03:38 AM   #780
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average speed in Germany is still quite low,compared with France,JP,China
Do they have any plan to upgrade more rails to 300+km/h?
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