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Old December 8th, 2015, 04:37 AM   #781
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The Transrapid clearance is 1cm between track and magnet compared to 10cm of the Japanese system but I speculate that the shaking is not due to clearance but alignment of the Shanghai track combined with the inherent boobing through propulsion.
As for depressurized tubes I doubt it will be realized on this planet due to cost in maintaining the low pressure through out the total length of the tracks. If maglevs are constructed on the moon in the next century definitely yes but on Earth I doubt it.
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Old December 8th, 2015, 06:15 AM   #782
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That is just not true!

For the ICE4 project the DB actually went out of their way and specifically set up an international tender for it.
They deliberately aimed for lower speed requirements (250 km/h max) but emphasized economy and comfort. So almost everybody 'in the game' was able to take part.
Systems from 4 different countries applied (2 of them were never revealed to the public), Alstom and Siemens made it to the second round. And during that time period DB was openly upset with Siemens given all the delays in delivery on a number of projects.
But in the end Alstom could not comply to all the technical requirements. So it was not even a political decision of 'buying local' or anything, Siemens won by default.
(The https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesa_Link#Deutsche_Bahn is proof that the political pressure is not that big. DB could give a huge 1,4€ billion contract to a foreign producer, when it had the better offer.)
"Won by default"--that's funny. That's like when people say they've set up a fair test open for anyone to take, when in reality it's been set up specifically so that one outcome is inevitable and the whole thing is, in actuality, a farce. If DB were so desperate to not have Siemens provide trains, then why didn't they change their expectations? And the other two were never publically revealed, but the two big ones were Alstom and Siemens? Gee, I wonder why. It's totally fair to say that the technical requirements were such that those two were, effectively, the only real competitors, but to have a coincidence wherein the only supplier that met all the requirements is both a domestic company and the dominant supplier of high speed trains in Germany? That looks less like a coincidence and more like an intended result.

Comfort and economy are actually much more technically-complicated to deliver than speed, in a lot of ways. It's easy to put a big engine in a little car to make it go fast in a straight line, but to make it do so while being comfortable, efficient, and manageable is a lot more complicated.

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PS: In what world is this thing not one of the ugliest trains on the market?
It may not be what you'd call "pretty", but it inarguably a technical-looking and futuristic design.
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Old December 8th, 2015, 08:52 AM   #783
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But that is just an accusation on your part!

Like I sad, DB was pissed at Siemens at that time. They made it quite clear to the press that they were actively looking for an alternative. Instead of going with them as their usual supplier or set up an faux-tender like you imply, they supposedly went directly to all the other producers. The CEO was giving interviews that Shinkansen could easily run on Germans lines if Hitachi would put in the effort to get them licensed.
They also said, they were not interested in interfering much in the development. It would be a very hands-off approach in with the producers were not expected to create something revolutionary, but could take their current proven design instead.

The final requirement document was very detailed, no question about it (300 pages, 8900 technical specifications). But only 27% of these criteria were obligatory.
There was a lot of room for different products. Even locomotive hauled designs were allowed!
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Old December 8th, 2015, 09:01 AM   #784
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Originally Posted by suasion View Post
the trains will always lose time entering and leaving stations no matter how fast they can travel between them
There is still a lot of room for improvement there. Because most of these stations are historically situated in city centres the high(er) speed stretches usually end some distance from the stations, so the train has to creep for several kilometers at low speeds, losing a lot of time. The same thing happens to TGVs.

When you take the Shinkansen on the other hand: Except for Tokyo where it is limited to 70 km/h to 110 km/h, they have built new high speed stations at better locations when the existing location was less suitable (like Shin-Osaka for instance).
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Old December 8th, 2015, 09:31 AM   #785
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I could be wrong, but aren't delays of train deliveries common these days?
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Old December 8th, 2015, 10:24 AM   #786
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So far, the ICE4 is on schedule btw.
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Old December 8th, 2015, 12:47 PM   #787
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
"Won by default"--that's funny. That's like when people say they've set up a fair test open for anyone to take, when in reality it's been set up specifically so that one outcome is inevitable and the whole thing is, in actuality, a farce. If DB were so desperate to not have Siemens provide trains, then why didn't they change their expectations?
I'm not sure that's the whole story. I think the most credible "western world" competitor to Siemens's ICE4 is probably Bombardier's Zefiro. (For reasons already mentioned we cannot know whether Bombardier was initially in contention.) Alstom's AGV is commonly considered as a failed project - even here in France. If you need proof of the last statement, please consider the following: Siemens beat Alstom to deliver the next generation of Eurostar trains - despite the fact that there is a French shareholding majority in the operating company. According to the (French) CEO of the company Siemens was so far ahead on all the main bidding criteria that there could have been no excuse for not selecting it.
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Old December 8th, 2015, 03:50 PM   #788
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Originally Posted by Deadeye Reloaded View Post
Deutsche Bahn has and will have enough high-speed bullet trains (+300 km/h) for the stretches where such high speed is possible.
Except that this isn't true. From December 2017 on the Berlin-München-line will be equipped for top speeds of 300 km/h for almost half of its length. That will make it the ICE line with the greatest percentage of highspeed stretches. Yet, this line won't be served by vehicles that match the conditions of the tracks.
Due to technical restrictions pretty much all of 300 km/h capable trainsets of the ICE fleet are committed to services using the Köln-Frankfurt/M highspeed line. That the capabilities of these highspeed trains are then wasted on classic lines beyond Kön and Frankfurt/M is an irony and a very expensive joke.
As a matter of fact Germany lacks a cohesive highspeed network which could bring the best out of the trains. But it also lacks a train operating company that purchase trains which could bring out the best of the railway as well. This is where countries like France, Spain or Italy beat us by large distances. Not to mention Japan where trains and tracks always form a symbiotic unit.
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Old December 8th, 2015, 04:24 PM   #789
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Only because it has decisively lowered its ambitions. The Velaro sets were acquired not for inner-German routes, but for international rides. Many of the French-German HSR rides now being served by TGVs were actually supposed to be provided by ICEs. Also DB seems to have completely abandoned its plans of serving the Cologne-London connection. As a result, the Velaro, which were expensively equipped to fit with all signaling and electricity voltage systems in Europe, run routes such as Munich-Stuttgart-Cologne-Dortmund.

Even if you don´t count the Velaro trains there are still 50 ICE 3 (class 403) wich is more than enough for the few routes where trains can go +300 km/h.


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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
They'll keep buying Siemens because Deutschland über alles, but no, nationalism is never the best reason to do something.

And ultimately I agree; Germany could use the stimulus that a massive infrastructure investment would provide. However, as the literal birthplace of austerity and place where that idea has found a very loving home, it's probably not going to happen.

Austerity is no more used in Germany when it comes to infrastructure. The government is investing many billions in rail and road to regain Germany´s leading position as Europe´s country with the most modern infrastructure.
I will search for some numbers and post it later. Prepare to be astonished!


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Originally Posted by aquaticko View Post
Just wondering, how competitive is the ICE with domestic air travel? As an American living in a smaller city with its own airport a mere 75km north of Boston (with its major airport), I fantasize that in smaller countries with good rail systems, domestic air travel becomes obsolete. How close is Germany to my fantasy ? (I'm not expecting "very")

There were direct flights between Berlin and Hamburg but they were all cancelled when Deutsche Bahn modernised the rail line between these cities. From this point in time the ICE killed the air travel on this route.


ICE 4 drive by. A really nice view of this master piece of engineering!
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Old December 8th, 2015, 05:03 PM   #790
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Wow! The renderings were awful, but it's really not that bad in person. (still like the oval windows on the ICE3, tho)
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Old December 8th, 2015, 05:25 PM   #791
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deadeye Reloaded View Post

Even if you don´t count the Velaro trains there are still 50 ICE 3 (class 403) wich is more than enough for the few routes where trains can go +300 km/h.





Austerity is no more used in Germany when it comes to infrastructure. The government is investing many billions in rail and road to regain Germany´s leading position as Europe´s country with the most modern infrastructure.
I will search for some numbers and post it later. Prepare to be astonished!


There were direct flights between Berlin and Hamburg but they were all cancelled when Deutsche Bahn modernised the rail line between these cities. From this point in time the ICE killed the air travel on this route.
Hamburg - Berlin? Yes, I am willing to accept that DB is competitive to air flight on HSR or semi-HSR for distances under 300 km, but think of Berlin-Frankfurt: 545 km and airlines are still very much present, whereas TGVs have pretty much done away with flights on the (admittedly shorter) 475 km run Paris-Lyon.
I am not saying the French system is the solution to all problems, but I see DB going increasingly for mediocrity both in rolling stock and grid development. If they embraced some alternative vision - for example like Austria, no intention to break speed records, but serious grid development to create short cuts, comfortable modern trains and stations, and for long-distance upkeep a night train fleet, then I would say why not, give it a shot. But expecting people to sit on daytime trains for 6 to 8 hours to cross Germany at max speeds of 160-230 kmh without any innovations on comfort (promising free wifi now DB's big goal while every Hungarian suburban train has this on offer). International travel is being given up entirely to air travel except where like France there is a neighboring HSR to exploit.
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Old December 9th, 2015, 12:33 AM   #792
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Baron Hirsch View Post
Hamburg - Berlin? Yes, I am willing to accept that DB is competitive to air flight on HSR or semi-HSR for distances under 300 km, but think of Berlin-Frankfurt: 545 km and airlines are still very much present, whereas TGVs have pretty much done away with flights on the (admittedly shorter) 475 km run Paris-Lyon.
Is there also a TGV from Lyon to CDG airport? If yes then it explains it partially. Some flight exist purely as connections for long distance routes and not because they are competitive services themselves. Basel-Frankfurt is an excellent is an excellent example. The distance is ca 320 km and it takes about 3 h by ICE or by car (assuming very light traffic). There are numerous flights between these two cities. I've used them many times to connect to flights to somewhere else. Much safer and cheaper that way than trying to combine air and rail.
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Old December 9th, 2015, 02:18 AM   #793
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
The Transrapid clearance is 1cm between track and magnet compared to 10cm of the Japanese system but I speculate that the shaking is not due to clearance but alignment of the Shanghai track combined with the inherent boobing through propulsion.
As for depressurized tubes I doubt it will be realized on this planet due to cost in maintaining the low pressure through out the total length of the tracks. If maglevs are constructed on the moon in the next century definitely yes but on Earth I doubt it.
You don't need low pressure. You can have half a bar and together with artificial wind would easily suffice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bbbut View Post
PS: In what world is this thing not one of the ugliest trains on the market?
Looks like the future.

Sleek straight line from top of the cabin to the front and shoe like design on the sides over the wheels, makes it look like it is made for moving and ready to attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bbbut View Post
But that is just an accusation on your part!

Like I sad, DB was pissed at Siemens at that time. They made it quite clear to the press that they were actively looking for an alternative. Instead of going with them as their usual supplier or set up an faux-tender like you imply, they supposedly went directly to all the other producers. The CEO was giving interviews that Shinkansen could easily run on Germans lines if Hitachi would put in the effort to get them licensed.
They also said, they were not interested in interfering much in the development. It would be a very hands-off approach in with the producers were not expected to create something revolutionary, but could take their current proven design instead.

The final requirement document was very detailed, no question about it (300 pages, 8900 technical specifications). But only 27% of these criteria were obligatory.
There was a lot of room for different products. Even locomotive hauled designs were allowed!
Did they specify that in case of a crash, the train should not pancake as on that bridge a few years back?



And as someone has said. Zefiro is not a bad choice either.

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Originally Posted by Deadeye Reloaded View Post
Austerity is no more used in Germany when it comes to infrastructure. The government is investing many billions in rail and road to regain Germany´s leading position as Europe´s country with the most modern infrastructure.
I will search for some numbers and post it later. Prepare to be astonished!
Train looks better in video tho. Still bad, but better than pictures.

Without % of GDP numbers this statement is irrelevant
http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statist...onomic_affairs



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Old December 9th, 2015, 02:40 AM   #794
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Originally Posted by Shenkey View Post
You don't need low pressure. You can have half a bar and together with artificial wind would easily suffice.
Half a bar IS LOW PRESSURE Dud.
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Old December 9th, 2015, 09:20 PM   #795
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From Railway Gazette:

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http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/p...ney-times.html

Erfurt – Leipzig opening will cut journey times
09 Dec 2015









GERMANY: With the parallel operation of two special trains, Deutsche Bahn officially inaugurated 123 km of new high speed line between Erfurt and Leipzig on December 9.

DB Chairman Rüdiger Grube and other board members were joined for the celebrations by Chancellor Angela Merkel and Federal Transport Minister Alexander Dobrindt, as well as the Presidents of Sachsen, Sachsen-Anhalt und Thüringen

...
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Old December 9th, 2015, 11:13 PM   #796
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And TIME has chosen Merkel as person of the year today.

So this new high speed line was opened by the Chancellor of the Free World!


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Old December 10th, 2015, 12:42 AM   #797
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Originally Posted by SamuraiBlue View Post
Half a bar IS LOW PRESSURE Dud.
We physicists say low pressure when it is 1 Pascal or less

At that you still do not need Copper bindings between 2 tubes as rubber deforms way too much when you go really low.
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Old December 10th, 2015, 02:31 AM   #798
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We physicists say low pressure when it is 1 Pascal or less
Physicists don't use arbitrary terms such as "Low Pressure" to define a state.
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Old December 10th, 2015, 02:51 PM   #799
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I'm a physicist, low pressure has no value, it would just imply the pressure is lower.
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Old December 10th, 2015, 03:13 PM   #800
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Anyway, half a bar is not really low and even getting it to 0.8 Bar, would greatly increase the attained speed with the same energy consumed, which is the whole point.
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