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Old October 1st, 2016, 06:47 PM   #901
hans280
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
It's easy to bypass small provincial French towns on your way to large population centres when those centres are essentially countryside towns....[]...A trains between Paris and Birmingham wouldn't avoid London and likewise it doesn't make sense for German trains to avoid many of these cities. They're all bigger than Marseille, for example.
Marseille isn't a great example since its a terminal station. But for example Lyon has an agglomeration (Ballungsraum in German) of well over 2 million and the town is bypassed. (So, for that matter, is Paris: TGV trains between the North of France and Rhone-Alpes run east around the capital without stopping. ) By a French logic it would be daylight madness to insist that every train between Frankfurt and Stuttgart should stop in Mannheim.
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Old October 1st, 2016, 07:02 PM   #902
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Where are you getting the figure from? Goscho is right that most German cities are growing.
From the graph Goschio himself postet.

See http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showpo...&postcount=878
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Old October 2nd, 2016, 02:14 AM   #903
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^
For German standards thats 'growth'.

Both Munich and Berlin (urbanised area/metro) will add about 500,000 population in the next 18 years. Frankfurt and Hamburg about 300,000.

In my book that's 'growth'.
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Old October 2nd, 2016, 02:28 AM   #904
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It is interesting to observe how the german rw-Topic repeat itself over and over again:

Germany's decentralized network with its characteristics vs. the French system with its characteristics.
Over and over, endlessly. Must be a decade or two now ...

Oh, it's time for the other cyclic discusson: TGV articulated bogies vs. conventional coaches. Haven't read about that for quite a while now ...


Come on, get over it.

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Old October 2nd, 2016, 02:48 AM   #905
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
It is interesting to observe how the german rw-Topic repeat itself over and over again:

Germany's decentralized network with its characteristics vs. the French system with its characteristics.
Over and over, endlessly. Must be a decade or two now ...

Oh, it's time for the other cyclic discusson: TGV articulated bogies vs. conventional coaches. Haven't read about that for quite a while now ...


Come on, get over it.

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Ok, fine.
Do you see improvements to be made to German railways or are you satisfied?
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Old October 2nd, 2016, 07:51 PM   #906
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Originally Posted by krisu99 View Post
Germany's decentralized network with its characteristics vs. the French system with its characteristics.
Over and over, endlessly. Must be a decade or two now ...

Come on, get over it.
Not so long ago I had a discussion with a lady in a Parisian cafe. Sensing that I'm North European she drew me into a discussion about German labour market reform (Harz; raising the retirement age...). She argued passionately that, so what, the Germans like working, fine, it's their right, but it does not mean that other Europeans should do likewise. After this earful I told her coolly: "Madame, please don't argue that making and effort and NOT making an effort are morally equivalent!"

When it comes to HS rail, the arrow points in the opposite direction. France is one step away from having connected the country East-West and North-South with 300 km/h lines. It's an achievement. It's the fruits of an effort. What tires me most is not the recurring discussion per se. It is having to listen to the repeat protestations from German railway buffs that "in OUR country it wouldn't be a good idea because of our geography..." Frankly, that argument is equivalent with the ramblings of the lady in the cafe.
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 12:29 AM   #907
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I never understood the argument that 300-320 km/h lines aren't 'good' for Germany because of geography, urban centers, etc.

Sure, I understand Germany is poly-centric, but that doesn't mean you can't have 320 km/h lines between the big cities. You can have trains that make more stops, and you can have express trains that go lightning fast between 2 (or more) big cities, as a proper alternative to flying.
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 03:29 PM   #908
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The thing is: Is there enough demand to fill trains that run non stop, and are therefore a bit faster?
Too little demand is rather a concern for the mid-sized towns and their mid-speed services. The non-stop services are more likely to be satisfyingly occupied. And this is the reason why these towns block the construction of by-passing lines. They would then have to rely solely on their own demand to keep their services running.
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Old October 3rd, 2016, 07:00 PM   #909
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Let'S draw the discussion towards another point. Yes, most intercity and ICE trains stop at the Hauptbahnhof of cities it traverses. On the other hand, as posted in the German Rail thread, the countries' main hubs cannot handle this traffic (and especially the expanding local and regional traffic) anymore. Hanover HBF hast to be expanded, as does Köln Hbf, Hamburg Hbf should but cannot be extended. Obviously construction in the heart of the city is usually a sensitive issue: monument preservation, big capital interests, complicated urban scenarios.
What could be the solution? Again we could look to France. One option would be say the Paris Nord (or London St Pancras or Antwerp C) model, building in fact several stations on top of each other, while preserving the original station in form. Closest to this comes Berlin Hbf (they knocked down the original station). Problems - conservationist issues, huge expenditure, difficult construction process.
The other option would be say the Lyon Part Dieu model: build another station inside the city, but not in its historical center. Already some ICE do not stop in Köln Hbf, but only at the close by but architecturally badly done Köln Deutz. Around Frankfurt, some trains no longer stop at Hbf, but only at Frankfurt Süd or Frankfurt Airport. On the Frankfurt-Cologne route, the only one roughly built according to the French model, out of town stations exist for Bonn (Siegburg) and Koblenz (Montabaur). While Montabaur is a failure, Siegburg has done rather well to attract passengers. It is easily reached by Autobahn and has a tram connection to Bonn Hbf, plus other eastern suburbs.
Do you see Germany's mainline congestion problems to be solved by either model and would the passengers accept them?
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Old October 4th, 2016, 08:31 PM   #910
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You can expect so many trains between Frankfurt and Mannheim once the HSL is built, there wouldn't be any lack in connectivity by skipping Mannheim with some of these trains.
The planning is for only 40 additional passenger trains per day, 32 from/towards Cologne and 8 from/towards Berlin. Building a bypass for only these 20 trains per day and direction is delusional. Any "skipping Mannheim" would extend well beyond the expansion, and would likely lower Mannheim to only getting 2-3 ICE stops per hour.

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And now Mannheim's Mayor gets scared because he forgot about the freight trains that will all run through his town if no bypass is built
Mannheim already has a freight bypass, one of the heaviest-used routes in Germany at 250+ freight trains per day.

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(but it's especially Darmstadt and Mannheim with their 100% demands why there's no progress since more than a decade now)
Mannheim's position is quite simple. Unlike Darmstadt, Mannheim is in the position where it can dictate that - because all one would need is a single hectare additional builtup zone in the zoning plans and the bypass route is gone anyway. They already narrowed the gap a few years ago from previously 300m to now 100m.

In my opinion they should let them build a bypass btw. And build a station along that bypass between Mannheim and Heidelberg. For a compensation deal investing a decent amount into the local transport network, and perhaps upgrading the freight network of the second-largest rail freight hub in Europe. Five billion compensation investment for the five billion project sound fair.
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Old October 4th, 2016, 10:52 PM   #911
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Originally Posted by Silly_Walks View Post
I never understood the argument that 300-320 km/h lines aren't 'good' for Germany because of geography, urban centers, etc.

Sure, I understand Germany is poly-centric, but that doesn't mean you can't have 320 km/h lines between the big cities. You can have trains that make more stops, and you can have express trains that go lightning fast between 2 (or more) big cities, as a proper alternative to flying.
Which is exactly what Japan has done. Germany shouldn't compare itself to France at all... unfortunately, it's the closest country.

Don't focus solely on top speed, focus on acceleration and staying at top speed. The FASTEST average speed of ANY train is way more important than its top speed.

Check out stats here, for example. http://www.railwaygazette.com/filead...Survey2007.pdf

Some segments in Japan which max out at 300km/h are faster than some 320km/h services in France.

Short segments in Japan of 145km and 192km average 256kph & 250kph.
In comparison, apart from one outlier between Lorraine and Champagne (279 kph ) that average matches the rest, which range between 250 kph – 259 kph.

The point is: A 300kph train can perform similarly to a faster train in some cases if it can get up to speed faster and therefore maintain that speed for longer.


Another consideration. Distance between stops. Despite cruising at 431 kph, the Shanghai line between the airport and city only averages 249.5 kph. Even though it has fantastic acceleration, the distance of 30.5 km just isn't enough to really take advantage of that speed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_s...ially_Operated

Germany may not have the appetite to break speed barriers, but it certainly can invest in EMUs which accelerate faster, and reduce the number of stops made. A few bypasses would also help.

Alternatively, they could just build long tunnels through their urban areas like Japan's doing for their new Chuo line. 80% of the line will be underground (mostly because there's a mountain range in the way, mind you ). The reason?

There's no need to worry about as much opposition in the city, Tunnels under a certain depth don't need to compensate landowners above in the cities. And there are fewer noise issues from smaller bypassed towns from 500 kph trains.

There are solutions for Germany, it's just a matter of thinking further than France's model and coming up with a German solution (instead of just saying shorter journeys are just not possible in Germany )
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Old October 5th, 2016, 12:03 AM   #912
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Isn't it the case that trains in France can't accelerate that quickly because of the differences in OHL voltages around cities, followed by neutral zones? (1500kV - 25kV)
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Old October 5th, 2016, 06:27 AM   #913
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Originally Posted by bluemeansgo View Post
Which is exactly what Japan has done. Germany shouldn't compare itself to France at all... unfortunately, it's the closest country.

Don't focus solely on top speed, focus on acceleration and staying at top speed. The FASTEST average speed of ANY train is way more important than its top speed.

Check out stats here, for example.

Some segments in Japan which max out at 300km/h are faster than some 320km/h services in France.

Short segments in Japan of 145km and 192km average 256kph & 250kph.
In comparison, apart from one outlier between Lorraine and Champagne (279 kph ) that average matches the rest, which range between 250 kph – 259 kph.

The point is: A 300kph train can perform similarly to a faster train in some cases if it can get up to speed faster and therefore maintain that speed for longer.


Another consideration. Distance between stops. Despite cruising at 431 kph, the Shanghai line between the airport and city only averages 249.5 kph. Even though it has fantastic acceleration, the distance of 30.5 km just isn't enough to really take advantage of that speed.

Germany may not have the appetite to break speed barriers, but it certainly can invest in EMUs which accelerate faster, and reduce the number of stops made. A few bypasses would also help.

Alternatively, they could just build long tunnels through their urban areas like Japan's doing for their new Chuo line. 80% of the line will be underground (mostly because there's a mountain range in the way, mind you ). The reason?

There's no need to worry about as much opposition in the city, Tunnels under a certain depth don't need to compensate landowners above in the cities. And there are fewer noise issues from smaller bypassed towns from 500 kph trains.

There are solutions for Germany, it's just a matter of thinking further than France's model and coming up with a German solution (instead of just saying shorter journeys are just not possible in Germany )
Yeah, I totally agree with acceleration on ICE 1 and 2 as they take (ICE 1) 18km to get to 250km/h.
ICE 4 which will be the replacement already has a far greater acceleration.

You talk about constructing giant tunnels. Well, that is a efficient solution indeed, but what about the price tag? Germany have to focus on building and upgrading some more critical high-speed lines before talking about constructing giant expansive tunnels under cities.

The only thing left to discuss is the number of stops it makes, really.
Which is all about being cost-effective to bypass and/or build bypasses on cities that have demand.
So I don't think there are that many other options really (you're free to prove me wrong though ).
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Old October 5th, 2016, 07:59 AM   #914
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Isn't it the case that trains in France can't accelerate that quickly because of the differences in OHL voltages around cities, followed by neutral zones? (1500kV - 25kV)
That's a good question. I know that the N700 were partially designed for acceleration due to short station spacing which is why they've always used EMUs in Japan. As I understand it EMUs typically offer better performance than a locomotive and are easier on tracks as their weight is more evenly distributed along the length of the train.

The AGV uses EMUs as well. It's hard to find absolute numbers in terms of actual acceleration between manufacturers though.
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Old October 5th, 2016, 04:14 PM   #915
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The planning is for only 40 additional passenger trains per day, 32 from/towards Cologne and 8 from/towards Berlin.
Only? 40 more IC/ICE trains per day is a huge increase, that is more than some line sees in total (I am looking at the new line Erfurt-Nürnberg which will see an hourly train plus three sprinters per day in the beginning). 40 more ICE per day on a line that already sees one of the largest numbers of long distance trains in Germany (from 112 trains per day to 152 trains per day).

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Building a bypass for only these 20 trains per day and direction is delusional. Any "skipping Mannheim" would extend well beyond the expansion, and would likely lower Mannheim to only getting 2-3 ICE stops per hour.
The main purpose of the bypass would be to route freight trains around the city at night to avoid noise because all other lines pass through densely populated area.

Assuming 16 hours of operation per day 152 ICE/IC mean 9.5 trains per hour. I would expect at least 4 trains per hour and direction (thus 8) to stop in Mannheim to enable half hourly connections (Switzerland/Stuttgart to Ruhr area/Hamburg/Berlin).

Another important point of the bypass would be a travel time of less than 1 hour between Frankfurt und Stuttgart. One train per hour (or every two hours) could bypass Mannheim as a sprinter.
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Old October 6th, 2016, 09:32 AM   #916
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Isn't it the case that trains in France can't accelerate that quickly because of the differences in OHL voltages around cities, followed by neutral zones? (1500kV - 25kV)
Not really. Bar some exceptions 1500V is only used on lines with lower track speeds. At slow speeds (roughly under 100 km/h) the acceleration of a train is tractive effort limited. Over about 100 km/h it's limited by power. Also time loss at a voltage switch point is minimal because you drive through it at speed.

At speed is where 1500 V DC bites most. All trains in a section combined can't exceed the maximum rating of the feeding station (commonly about 4000 A at 1800V). That's why a TGV 2N2 has a power rating of 9280 kW on 25 kV and just 3680 kW on 1.5 kV. (2x3680=7360kW, equals about 4900A at 1500V!). For reference: a maximum of 1200 A at 27.5 kV (about 29 MW) is not uncommon for 25 kV lines.

All modern trains have a current limiting function, that limits the maximum current the further the line voltage drops.

You need enough feeding stations though. There is a trend towards ever more powerful trains. In the past in Germany it wasn't uncommon for OHL voltage to drop as low as 11 kV under load.
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Old October 6th, 2016, 04:10 PM   #917
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That's one area where the Pennsylvania Railroad was prescient, building the system to handle massive freight trains has come in handy.
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Old October 6th, 2016, 04:11 PM   #918
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The planning is for only 40 additional passenger trains per day, 32 from/towards Cologne and 8 from/towards Berlin...
Those 40 days are just a model, nothing that is really planned. Reality will be different. 32 additional trains to/from NRW sounds reasonable. But when Stuttgart-Ulm and Frankfurt-Mannheim are finished, travel time between Frankfurt and München will be less than 3 hours - that's significantly faster than the current fastest route via Nürnberg (currently 3:10 hrs, 2:45 hours could be realistic, but maybe not before 2030). Together with Ulm-Augsburg (urgent demand of the new BVWP) and a Mannheim bypass even 2:30 is easily possible - and these trains will have to run hourly (instead of current 2 hours interval), which makes 16 additional trains per day to/from Frankfurt Hbf (8 per direction). The Frankfurt - Paris line will also get additional trains soon. So you can easily expect 20 or more daily trains to/from Frankfurt Hbf alone.
But in those "40 trains" only 8 trains towards Frankfurt Hbf are included. Do your maths and you'll know what you should think of those "40 trains"...

Last edited by Rohne; October 6th, 2016 at 04:17 PM.
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Old October 6th, 2016, 11:12 PM   #919
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Yeah, I totally agree with acceleration on ICE 1 and 2 as they take (ICE 1) 18km to get to 250km/h.
ICE 4 which will be the replacement already has a far greater acceleration.
18km to get to 250km is pretty slow, yeah. Hard to tell exactly from this chart (2008), but it looks like the TGV makes it to 250km around the 10 km mark, The N700 at around the 5 km mark. The L0 around the 1 km mark!


I'm a little surprised at the Transrapid acceleration, though I wonder if this is simply a matter of not needing to accelerate that quickly due to the length of the line. It's a shame they never ended up extending the Maglev so that it could live up to its full potential.

A chart like that really helps you appreciate that there is an upper limit to speeds when you can't accelerate quickly enough. When it takes 40km to get to 350kph, and likely another 15km to slow to a stop... then you have to question whether running a train fast makes much sense.

This is why when people point to the TGV that ran 574 kph and use that as proof that we don't need Maglev for faster train speeds, I wonder if they've REALLY thought about the full implications.

Back to Germany, though, I'm curious about the track-bed installation of Germany vs. France. My gut tells me that ICE trains in Germany will be smoother than TGV, because.... well, Germany, but I'd be curious to know if anyone has compared the actual ride quality in various countries.

On a recent trip, I was able to evaluate Austrian and Italian highways and, much to my surprise, I found Italian highways more comfortable ( albeit with narrower lanes ).

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Old October 6th, 2016, 11:47 PM   #920
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The main purpose of the bypass would be to route freight trains around the city at night to avoid noise because all other lines pass through densely populated area.
The current inner bypass runs by populated areas for a grand total of 1.5-2.0 km, mostly (except for 0.5 km) pretty ghetto areas too. A bypass along the A6 would run by populated areas for about 1.0 km (including a nearby conversion zone which would hardly sell its planned couple hundred apartments that way)
It would effectively not be able to be directly connected to Mannheim RBf thus being pretty much useless for freight purposes - there's barely any through traffic, about every freight train calls at either Mannheim RBf or Ludwigshafen BASF.

It should be noted that the bypass route in DB's older plans - when it still did plan a bypass, and chose the only available route - would likely run into fierce political problems on a whole different level today. Namely Ultranet Trassenabschnitt B.

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I would expect at least 4 trains per hour and direction (thus 8) to stop in Mannheim to enable half hourly connections (Switzerland/Stuttgart to Ruhr area/Hamburg/Berlin).
The regular connections are currently 2x Frankfurt - Mannheim - Stuttgart per hour at 30 node (with some only 1x), 2x Frankfurt - Mannheim - Karlsruhe per hour at 30 node (with some only 1x), Mainz - Mannheim - Stuttgart (IC only) at 15 node every hour, Frankfurt - Mannheim - Saarbrücken / Paris (TGV/ICE) at 45 node every 2 hours. Plus the occasional odds and ends such as Frankfurt - Mannheim - Marseilles or various sprinters.

Regular would then be about 11 trains per hour in both directions once you replace those IC with ICE as planned by DB - which as regular stops are pretty much non-negotiable.

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Another important point of the bypass would be a travel time of less than 1 hour between Frankfurt und Stuttgart.
ICE4 makes that impossible.
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